The Official Batman Returns Thread

[BatmanForNever]

I wanted to like it. I've even re-watched it, hoping my opinion would change. But I simply cannot get into this movie. The plot. The melodrama. The dialogue-I just can't take it. I hated it so much that for 3 years I allowed it to taint my perception of the character. Yet I've watched fanboys praise this film for well over a decade. Am I alone here?

I'm not going to agree or disagree. My friend swears that it's the best Batman film, I think it's the weakest. I love all Batman films (excluding Batman & Robin) I think it was too dark, too drawn out, and gave Tim Burton wayyy too much leash since he had a successful first film. They were like yea here you go bigger budget, bigger set, go crazy, do your thing. And the film suffered. The focus was too much on villains and not enough with Bruce/Batman. There were no real action/fight scenes even. In terms of rankings of the old films here's mine:


1.Batman Forever
2.Batman
3.Batman Returns

 

[Catman]

there are some fans who give it credit for more artistic depth than it deserves. I really don't believe it's all that deep.

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

That is really all there is to say about fan response to the movie...


I personally LOVE this movie and always have. I dunno, maybe it's because i'm just as big a Burton fan as a Batman fan... and that the worlds melded so perfectly.

I know why people hate it and it's fair enough... but it's one heck of a daring, powerful and artistic sequel in the superhero genre... and for that, it deserves credit alone!

Plus... Michelle Pfeiffer was amazing and spine-tingling good in the role of Catwoman. THE best actor to have ever played a Batman villain in a any medium...

Until Mr Ledger came along that is.

 

[david icke]

I loved it when i first saw it in the cinema, and enjoyed it for many years on vhs. But nowadays I cant really watch it at all, the penguin annoys me and is a main focus of the film, the fightscenes with Batman are a bit daft looking and weak. I really only like the Catwoman stuff. I think Walken was a little wasted too, shouldve saved him for a top tier rogues gallery villan.

 

[Bathead]

Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

I "get it" just fine, I just don't agree that it's as deep as some seem to think. I find this attitude that I somehow don't "get it" just because of my opinion of the movie to be kind of arrogant and quite insulting.

 

[El Payaso]

You see, that's my problem. I really liked the movie, even though there were some elements I didn't care for, but,he thing is,(IMO) there are some fans who give it credit for more artistic depth than it deserves. I really don't believe it's all that deep. Again, IMO, it's all style and little substance, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. It was a fun (and in some parts, a little silly)Batman movie, nothing more, nothing less.

How is other people finding BR a deep movie a problem for you?

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

I know B89 is the better movie but personally I enjoy this one a lot more.

Burtons take on Catwoman and Penguin is possibly the greatest to this day. In fact up until Heath, De Vito's Penguin was my fave Bat movie villain ever.

 

[nathaniel]

I absolutely hated BR when it was released it was far to much a deviation from the original to me then.

I now rank it very very nearly the equal of B89 it has imo the best interpretation of batman to date in Keaton he is completely lost in the obsession of his mission by now, from the first shot of him brooding in Wayne Manor, to the part where he confronts penguin ("things change") he is amazing to watch NO ONE can paint a story with a few glances and manerisms like Keaton as Batman did imo.

Phiffer is amazing as catwoman period. Okay her "birth" is pure Burton fantasy but it works for his interpretation and Phiffers sultry scheming is a joy to watch the short scene with her and Penguin in the loft was poetry in motion.

 

[Ryan]

I don't usually go back and analyze films to see if I missed something or if something was better then it really was. I usually just go with my intial feeling of the movie from the first viewing. For me, hands down, Batman Begins was the best Batman movie and the one that I enjoyed the most. I never got into Keaton for whatever reason, although I really like him as an actor. I thought Batman 89 was ok but I felt like Batman Returns was a mess. At the time, I felt like the plot kept changing over and over again as if they didn't know where they wanted it to end or what direction it was going. Again, thats how I felt when I first saw it.
That being said, I still think Pfeiffer's Catwoman, origin story, presentation was one of or is the best told Batman rogue story on film to date. I think her protrayal and her look is timeless and would easily fit into any of the Nolan's films. I always thought there was room for improvement for the Joker, but I do have my doubts as to whether Nolan could do a better Catwoman.
The Penguin interpretation was ok. I just get a bit tired of Hollywood views where Catwoman must have "cat powers" and actually be like a cat as they did in the Halle Berry movie. Therefore a Penguin must actually look like an actual penguin etc. Not every character like Spiderman has to have the exact animalistic abilities of his/her namesake. If that was the case, I suppose Spiderman should have had spiderwebs coming out his arse if they went to keep it true to nature.

 

[BatmanForNever]

I liked the take on the Penguin...In the movie he appealed to me more rather than in the comics where he's a short, lame, gangster.

 

[Fenrir]

I wanted to like it. I've even re-watched it, hoping my opinion would change. But I simply cannot get into this movie. The plot. The melodrama. The dialogue-I just can't take it. I hated it so much that for 3 years I allowed it to taint my perception of the character. Yet I've watched fanboys praise this film for well over a decade. Am I alone here?

Agree 100%. It ranks just above B&R in the hierarchy of Batman films.

 

[Phaser]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish. It is both serious and tongue-in-cheek. It is one of the best comic book films of all time, yet in some regards, also the worst.

I think the one thing that almost kills the movie is Burton's macabre stylistic choices and the rather cheesy tone of a number scenes (again, too much Burton). Otherwise, judging it on the basis of screenplay alone it is damn near untouchable. If only the film had a more consistent feel throughout, didn't look like it completely took place on small soundstage and the producers hadn't let Burton completely loose like they did on B89, this would've been regarded as a landmark superhero movie even today. Still, I applaud it for its ambition to really push the genre envelope (even if it failed to do so). In fact, I think that The Dark Knight is sort of like Batman Returns done right. They both share so many little similarities, most prominent one being the tragic, bittersweet endings.

Nevertheless, I will always love this film because in my opinion, Burton's interpretation of the Penguin far surpasses its comic counterpart and actually turns into a threatening villain with a sort of mirror image of Batman. And Catwoman, though equally deviant from the source material, is also equally as good. Batman Returns is an immensely flawed classic, but a classic nonetheless.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish. It is both serious and tongue-in-cheek. It is one of the best comic book films of all time, yet in some regards, also the worst.

I think the one thing that almost kills the movie is Burton's macabre stylistic choices and the rather cheesy tone of a number scenes (again, too much Burton).

I think I agree with this. And again, my main problem was that Batman just seemed so damn inept. He walked into Penguin's trap, he let his guard down for Catwoman every time. He could've easily saved the Ice Princess-f*** up after f*** up after f*** up. And it's true-I felt a lot of the time like Burton just wouldn't get out of the movie's way.

 

[Blaztro]

To me, the movie is meh. While I hated the look and feel of the penguin, found that Burton used too much "potty humor", and disliked Batman's ineptitude, I found it enjoyable.

 

[Chris Wallace]

To me, the movie is meh. While I hated the look and feel of the penguin, found that Burton used too much "potty humor", and disliked Batman's ineptitude, I found it enjoyable.

So what were the things you did enjoy?

 

[theMan-Bat]

I think I agree with this. And again, my main problem was that Batman just seemed so damn inept. He walked into Penguin's trap, he let his guard down for Catwoman every time. He could've easily saved the Ice Princess-f*** up after f*** up after f*** up.

Even Batman makes mistakes. The classic Batman formula is that Batman fights the villain and loses and then in the end he wins. Do you really want to see a Batman movie where he's winning all the time? I hate Batman portrayed as mr. perfect, the worlds greatest everything. I love the less perfect Batman. Infinitely perfect is infinitely boring. If he doesn't have to struggle, and isn't ever at risk, there's no tension, and conflict isn't possible.

And it's true-I felt a lot of the time like Burton just wouldn't get out of the movie's way.

Tim Burton's macabre Gothic stylistic choices absolutely fits Batman and his city going back to the original comics. Bob Kane stated in his book Batman & Me, "The first year of Batman was heavily influenced by horror movies, and emulated a Dracula look." Neal Adams brought back the Gothic look of Gotham City in the 1970s with gargoyles on the buildings. And other artists followed.

 

[The Guard]

BATMAN RETURNS is a paradox, but so were the comics for years and years.

 

[Catman]

Batman Returns is a complete paradox unto itself. It is simultaneously both the darkest Batman film to date and arguably also the silliest. It is both adult and childish.

That was the point. People need to remember that these movies were also for kids. So, you need those silly moments to entertain them. That was the mistake Batman Begins made. It bored kids. Which is why it didn't do better at the box office. People claimed at first that it was cause Batman & Robin was still a recent memory but it was cause kids had no desire to see it.

 

[Phaser]

That was the point. People need to remember that these movies were also for kids. So, you need those silly moments to entertain them.

And in doing so, it neglected both audiences. Children didn't like it because it was too gruesome in parts and the storyline was too mature while adults didn't like it because it was too silly and looked like a cartoon a lot of the time.

That was the mistake Batman Begins made. It bored kids. Which is why it didn't do better at the box office. People claimed at first that it was cause Batman & Robin was still a recent memory but it was cause kids had no desire to see it.

So how do you explain TDK, a far more serious, darker and adult film than BB, going on to gross a billion dollars worldwide? I mean, even if you bring up the excuse about Ledger's Joker (which is ridiculous), you have to contend with the fact that he was hardly a kid-friendly character.

 

[returntovoid]

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[Catman]

Children didn't like

Who said kids didn't like it? I was 10 when it came out and every kid loved it. Don't confuse kids with soccer moms. Plus, kids at the time were used to Tim Burton's style. Beetlejuice was a big hit at the time and even had a successful cartoon series. So, kids weren't turned off by the Burton style.

adults didn't like it

Again, I don't know where you're getting your info from. Don't confuse adults with fanboys. This was the summer's most successful movie. You don't become #1 by people hating your movie.

The ONLY people who hated this movie were fanboys and soccer moms. Everyone else enjoyed it.

So how do you explain TDK, a far more serious, darker and adult film than BB, going on to gross a billion dollars worldwide?

Dark Knight, while darker, was also more action-packed. The movie literally began with a bank robbery and then followed that up with Batman in a garage fighting the Scarecrow. Begins, on the other hand, began with a fight scene where nobody could see what was going on.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I disliked Batman Return but the only thing I liked about it was the Gothic look of Gotham City and Danny Elfman's score. The problem I had with the portrayal of Penguin and Catwoman was that Tim Burton took two of the sanest Batman villains and turned them into total psychopaths, I mean, if He wanted two psychopathic villains, then there are other psychopathic villains to choose from like The Riddler, Two-Face, Scarecrow, Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter or even bring back The Joker.

Penguin and Catwoman are not two of the sanest Batman villains.
Here Batman says Catwoman needs a psychiatrist. She is showing symptoms of Bipolar Disorder. Rapid violent mood swings. This is from Batman #355 (1983).

And the original version of Penguin was a cold-blooded murderer with what was described as a "fertile--but twisted--brain." The text described him as a "grotesque creature of ill-omen." Penguin's hellish childhood in the comic books is that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella even in the summers by his mentally disturbed mother because of his biological father dying of pneumonia. Possibly, the boy never really knew him. And Oswald was bullied for always carrying an umbrella and because of his grotesque appearance. A person with this childhood would have lasting psychological issues, especially considering he grew up to become a cold-blooded murderer using umbrella's to kill. As with the Batman Returns origin, he was an outcast, rejected by society.

 

[The Joker]

Penguin sane?

He's been in Arkham several times.

 

[Phaser]

Who said kids didn't like it? I was 10 when it came out and every kid loved it. Don't confuse kids with soccer moms. Plus, kids at the time were used to Tim Burton's style. Beetlejuice was a big hit at the time and even had a successful cartoon series. So, kids weren't turned off by the Burton style.

Let's see now - coming off of the biggest hit of 1989, Batman Returns managed a record opening weekend with a...35% less overall gross and shorter run by two months compared to its predecessor. It wasn't a complete failure, but it wasn't a complete success either. And Beetlejuice was a tongue-in-cheek

Again, I don't know where you're getting your info from. Don't confuse adults with fanboys. This was the summer's most successful movie. You don't become #1 by people hating your movie. The ONLY people who hated this movie were fanboys and soccer moms. Everyone else enjoyed it.

Then why was WB compelled to completely change the direction of the franchise after BR? Surely soccer moms neither had the political or legal backing to enforce such a change. WB did so because they saw BR for it what it was - a commercial disappointment. No studio wants to see a sequel on which they spent twice as much money only to get 35% less in return. If people thought BR was anywhere as good as B89, then they would've seen it just as many times. But they didn't. Hence the lower box office.

Of course, I hold BR as being slightly superior to B89, but facts are facts.

Dark Knight, while darker, was also more action-packed. The movie literally began with a bank robbery and then followed that up with Batman in a garage fighting the Scarecrow. Begins, on the other hand, began with a fight scene where nobody could see what was going on.

It still doesn't help your argument that a film needs to have silly moments like BR to attract the kids. And so we revert back to my original point - like TDK, BR didn't need to have those cheesy, silly moments to attract the kids. And there is a clear difference between the box-office of BB and BR. BR smashed opening weekend records, indicative of high interest in the film, yet it topped out at 18 weeks. In stark contrast, BB's opening weekend was the 9th highest opening film of 2005 only indicating little interest in the film, yet it good word of mouth helped it stay for more than 20 weeks in theaters ending with one of the strongest runs of the year. In short, people weren't turned off by the 'boring' content of BB like you say, many simply didn't bother to watch the film in cinemas to begin with.

 

[returntovoid]

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