The Official Batman & Robin Thread

[TMC1982]

Uma Thurman on the criticism of Batman & Robin (Huff Post)

I was a kid when "Batman & Robin" came out, and I worshipped you as Poison Ivy.
So you must like Mae West? Because what I did was take Mae West and played with it.

Did you know at the time how notorious its reputation would become?
What is it notorious for?

For being campy.
Well, it came out in a different time when people were still being *****y about campy. Humor being campy and campy being a code word for gay has changed. I think one of the most beautiful things I will get to say I’ve witnessed in my lifetime is to have lived through part of the major movement of trying to quell persecution of human beings who have a different sexual orientation. If you think of the Berlin Wall coming down, people always talk about all these big things. I think what Pope Francis did 10 days ago, which people have just talked about in hushed voices: “Oh yeah, you hear the pope said that?” -- I’m not Catholic, but I have to tell you, to me, Pope Francis should be sainted for this, what he did for mankind. For the millions and millions and millions of people on the earth who have died because of who they were. God, you just got me. So anyway, the word “campy” has nothing to do with “Batman & Robin”; it just somehow made me think of this. Obviously the Batman movies went in a very serious direction, a very humorless direction. Really straight and hardcore.

Absolutely. They’re beautiful movies, but they’re not the same ones that Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher were making.
Oh no, they’re totally different: hardcore violence. And I like them. But I think at the time the idea of taking a male superhero and having fun with it and someone using the c-word [campy] on it caused people to be very nasty. And that kind of nastiness was acceptable on those terms. And I think that’s the reason some people were particularly annoyed. They didn’t like seeing that tone applied to their heterosexual male icon.

That’s an interesting perspective on it.
Well, it takes time, and the idea that that wasn’t appropriate was because there was a deep-seated discrimination at hand, and hatred and fear. So what Joel did was actually very threatening at the time, and I think it is truly one of the things that we should all feel -- and me as a person -- is beyond greater than the Berlin Wall coming down. Far more thousands or millions more have died under that discrimination and those biases and those scriptures being interpreted in such a cruel manner compared to those who died coming out of East Germany. Anyway, this is very serious.

It is. If someone were to play Poison Ivy in a Batman reboot now, who should it be?
I have a problem where, whenever I want to say a name, it blacks out. She’s the most famous girl ever.

Jennifer Lawrence?
No. Well, she’s wonderful, I just watched her last night. I love her acting. No, I have to call you. When I’m interviewed, I go blank on names. Oh! Scarlett Johansson!

That’s a great one.
Sorry, I can’t believe this. Every time people ask me to say a name when I’m being interviewed, I just black out. Scarlett Johansson would be fabulous. It’s a must.

I think that Uma Thurman and whomever was interviewing her completely missed the point for why Batman & Robin is so loathed. It isn't simply because it was a campier take on Batman. Hell, Batman Returns from Tim Burton had campy elements too whether you want to admit it or not. It's just that it's an extremely lazy, unfocused, bloated, cynical, glorified toy commercial.


I don't know how to properly explain it right now, but Batman & Robin seemed too self-satisfied or self-aware of how ridiculous or campy it was trying to be. It's one of those movies in which it thinks that it's funnier or more clever than it actually is.


And I'm guessing the whole "you must be a homophobe" perception immediately has to do w/ the single fact that Joel Schumacher, an openly gay man, directed Batman & Robin. Schumacher was the immediate and main fall guy for the criticism.

 

[DigificWriter]

Batman and Robin is such an abomination because it literally takes a crap on the Batman property by openly mocking said property at every available turn.

The film actually has a decent story underpinning it, but that story gets lost in the face of Schumacher treating the entire film as one big joke and allowing George Clooney and Chris O'Donnell to play Batman and Robin in the most flamboyantly and offensively homosexual way possible.

 

[Kane52630]

Tell us how you really feel...

 

[DigificWriter]

I should probably clarify that I am a staunch supporter of LGBT rights and know and am close friends with several LGBT individuals, and am offended by Clooney and O'Donnell's portrayals of Batman and Robin in B&R because they are so flamboyantly and derogatorily stereotypical of how LGBT individuals were often portrayed in film at the time.

 

[Naked Shia]

It was definitely offensive, when those two gay men were wooing poison ivy.

 

[Leenie]

Uma Thurman, I love you, but I think you missed the mark on this.

"Oh, you didn't like Batman & Robin? You bigot!" That's how it came across to me.

People already have enough trouble debating about ... Well ... Anything and everything. Do we really need to add the "bigotry" name-calling for fanboys to shout at each other now?

 

[Decepticonus]

Batman and Robin is such an abomination because it literally takes a crap on the Batman property by openly mocking said property at every available turn.

The film actually has a decent story underpinning it, but that story gets lost in the face of Schumacher treating the entire film as one big joke and allowing George Clooney and Chris O'Donnell to play Batman and Robin in the most flamboyantly and offensively homosexual way possible.

I'm going to say something unpopular and maybe even offensive. I'd prefer B&R over Returns, since Returns even lacks a coherent story. B&R attempts. They want to freeze the world and have plants rule the world??? Stupid, yes but it's something. Catwoman wants Schrek or to get at Batman... I think? Penguin wants genocide-er or to be liked no he wants to be mayor, hell I don't know. Sitting through B&R isn't that hard because it's entertainingly bad and fun to roast the hell out of. Returns leaves me in a horrible, foul, depressed and nihilistic mood. There is no humanity in it at all, which I could forgive if it had plot.

And yes, there is a possible story there. I would like the idea of Batman & Robin fighting but for a good legitimate reason, maybe to the point of quitting for good but Alfred's illness reunites them.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I personally think the storyline of Batman Returns is actually quite easily discernable (Cobblepot wants to become Mayor of Gotham City as a 'means to an end' in his quest to commit genocide against humanity for the wrongs he feels were committed against him, and Selina Kyle becomes a willing participant in that goal as a way to get at Batman, whom she sees as somewhat of a kindred spirit and is perversely attracted to even though he poses a significant threat to Cobblepot's plans), but to each their own.

 

[Decepticonus]

^ I personally think the storyline of Batman Returns is actually quite easily discernable (Cobblepot wants to become Mayor of Gotham City as a 'means to an end' in his quest to commit genocide against humanity for the wrongs he feels were committed against him, and Selina Kyle becomes a willing participant in that goal as a way to get at Batman, whom she sees as somewhat of a kindred spirit and is perversely attracted to even though he poses a significant threat to Cobblepot's plans), but to each their own.

The problem is the plan is I want to find out who my parents are, goes to the hall of records then the cemetery ok, sure. Wait let's make you mayor. OK sounds like a plan to me. You could argue he was planning the genocide with the hall of records or the list Catwoman sees, but you don't pick up on that until your second viewing. During the first viewing its oh yeah parents. Oh yeah probably is a enemy list or just something he doesn't want Catwoman to read (like bad lines - "I'd like to fill her void."). The execution is poor, as if if the final act it's let's kill all the kids cause I'm upset. Or that he was maybe not going to do it.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I've never had any trouble whatsoever following the storyline of Batman Returns (nor do I personally know anyone who has), so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this subject.

 

[Decepticonus]

^ I've never had any trouble whatsoever following the storyline of Batman Returns (nor do I personally know anyone who has), so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this subject.

Not exactly hard to follow it's just so pieced together randomly. Blow up the department store, did it have any affect? No, not really, no consequences really afterwards.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ To each their own.

 

[C. Lee]

**Bales's raspy voice**the BATMAN is serious bizzness......humor is not allowed**end of Bale's raspy voice.

My introduction to Batman was the comics in the early 60's. They were anything but serious. Then I saw Adam West on the TV show as Batman. It was anything but serious. So....the nuttiness in George Clooney's BATMAN AND ROBIN don't bother me. It's just another take on the character from the comics.

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/123524928794/batman-robin-1997

 

[ThePhantasm]

I don't mind campiness. I love the 60's era Batman stuff. And Returns is campy in its own weird way. I just find B&R to be more groan-inducing camp than fun camp. It really does feel more like an advert for toys than a Batman film.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The only true saving grace from any sort of dramatic standpoint is Michael Gough. He always produced a wonderful performance, and shared brilliant chemistry with just about any actor he was in a scene with.

 

[redfirebird2008]

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I like that Clooney can look back on it with some humor, even though he thinks it's rubbish.

Clooney's career was actually boosted by it. He called it the biggest break he ever received. The same can't be said of Governator, O'Donnell, and Silverstone. Bet they don't look back on it so fondly.

 

[Malicked]

Clooney's career was actually boosted by it. He called it the biggest break he ever received. The same can't be said of Governator, O'Donnell, and Silverstone. Bet they don't look back on it so fondly.

O'Donnell and Silverstone sure won't look back with fond memories but Batman & Robin was just another 'colourful' addition to the Governator's filmography t:

 

[Rocketman]

If people can't see that this movie was a blatant homage to the 1966 series, they're nuts. I still adore this move - for what it is. But it really irritates me when people proclaim such love for the Adam West show and then turn around and trash this. It's a tiny bit hypocritical.

Take away the nipples and I honestly think the suits are perfect. I think Schumacher's Gotham was perfect. I think Eliot Goldenthal's scores were great. I think the cinematography was great. The script itself is what paid homage to the '66 series, but the script just happened to be bad. That's what made it a bad movie. It always starts with script.

Michael Uslan has said the same thing - each Batman director's interpretation depicted the Batman of every era - Schumacher was the 60s. This is what was coming out during that decade:

Spoiler

So to say that the film "didn't follow the comics" is a huge error. It just didn't follow YOUR comics. If it's a bad movie, it's a bad movie (I don't think it is), but to say it misrepresented Batman is totally wrong.

 

[Batsfan1]

If people can't see that this movie was a blatant homage to the 1966 series, they're nuts. I still adore this move - for what it is. But it really irritates me when people proclaim such love for the Adam West show and then turn around and trash this. It's a tiny bit hypocritical.

Take away the nipples and I honestly think the suits are perfect. I think Schumacher's Gotham was perfect. I think Eliot Goldenthal's scores were great. I think the cinematography was great. The script itself is what paid homage to the '66 series, but the script just happened to be bad. That's what made it a bad movie. It always starts with script.

Michael Uslan has said the same thing - each Batman director's interpretation depicted the Batman of every era - Schumacher was the 60s. This is what was coming out during that decade:

Spoiler

So to say that the film "didn't follow the comics" is a huge error. It just didn't follow YOUR comics. If it's a bad movie, it's a bad movie (I don't think it is), but to say it misrepresented Batman is totally wrong.

How was the script bad?

 

[TMC1982]

I don't mind campiness. I love the 60's era Batman stuff. And Returns is campy in its own weird way. I just find B&R to be more groan-inducing camp than fun camp. It really does feel more like an advert for toys than a Batman film.

I don't necessarily think that a lighter or dare I say "campy" Batman movie isn't warranted. What made the 1960s TV series for the most part work is that there was a certain wit and charm about it. Batman & Robin on the other hand, thinks that the best idea for "humor" is to fill the dialogue w/ a bunch of sexual innuendos and cheesy puns. The 1960s show deliberately played it tongue in cheek with Adam West's Batman as the oblivious straight-man to those around him. The Joel Schumacher movies are just not as clever or subversive.

 

[The Joker]

Schumacher also said they were simply trying to sell toys. That's why it's called the toyetic Batman. As opposed to the 60's show which was trying to entertain people instead of sell merch.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The 66 show kept the Batman franchise permanently afloat as comic sales declined. It was designed to entertain, that ended up doing more good than it thought.
B&R was designed by the greedy fat cats to rob parents at the request of their children, that in turn, killed off the film franchise for 8 years.

That film is only beloved to me for 2 reasons
1. Michael Gough
2. How much it can cheer me up when I'm feeling blue...

 

[Rodrigo90]

The problem is the plan is I want to find out who my parents are, goes to the hall of records then the cemetery ok, sure. Wait let's make you mayor. OK sounds like a plan to me. You could argue he was planning the genocide with the hall of records or the list Catwoman sees, but you don't pick up on that until your second viewing. During the first viewing its oh yeah parents. Oh yeah probably is a enemy list or just something he doesn't want Catwoman to read (like bad lines - "I'd like to fill her void."). The execution is poor, as if if the final act it's let's kill all the kids cause I'm upset. Or that he was maybe not going to do it.

Funnily enough, until I've just been reminded of that tiny little detail - Penguin's list on his nightstand that Catwoman paws through o), I would've kept assuming Shreck had sidetracked him with the delusions of power and the chances of unlimited "poontang" as Mayor, that he ended up forgetting about his original goal, which only later reignited after his public shaming.
Now, am I the dumbarse for assuming that, or am I in the right because the plot became sidetracked with other elements?

 

[Batsfan1]

The 66 show kept the Batman franchise permanently afloat as comic sales declined. It was designed to entertain, that ended up doing more good than it thought.
B&R was designed by the greedy fat cats to rob parents at the request of their children, that in turn, killed off the film franchise for 8 years.

That film is only beloved to me for 2 reasons
1. Michael Gough
2. How much it can cheer me up when I'm feeling blue...

Fans killed it off for 8 years. The movie itself wasn't bad.