First Avenger The "OFFICIAL" CA:TFA Negative Reaction Thread

[wobbly]

Of course I would agree! And I never said anything about Captain Amercia needing to represent America like we are 'superior'. That is so completely opposite to my thinking, I don't even know where to begin. All I said was waving the flag (LIKE A METAPHOR) is what he should do. By doing this, it allows people from ALL countries to wave their own flag. It's about pride in your country. THAT is the point. Not saying one is better than the other.

That is not what you said. You quoted Johnson and Evans and commented on what they said with this:

"I just knew this thing read like a train wreck. They can't even honor his origin without going all 'PC' on it. Lame..."

Would you accept now, having been offered an interpretation of those words that shows they are perfectly valid for Captain America, that your comment was unjustified?

That is what I responded to after all, not what you have changed to above.

 

[Webhead38]

Well, he's basically wearing it. I think he's got that covered via his name as well.

EXACTLY! Which means if he's wearing it, then he must BELIEVE in something it stands for. Yes? Let's not stray off course here. If a man is going to wear his country's symbol and give his life for his country then he stands for his country, like you would for yours? YES? What is wrong with that? That has NOTHING to do with saying the country is BETTER or "invented values". It's saying we should ALL have pride in our heritage and where we came from. Just like Egyptians in America are marching in protest to the violence in their native country. Well, that is PRIDE. I respect that. And THAT is what Captain AMERICA is suppose to be about. It's not excluding people. It's saying he represents something we should all have for own country. How can't you see that?

 

[Stringer]

Goodness Webhead, do you understand anything about Captain America, or any hero for that matter?

 

[Webhead38]

That is not what you said. You quoted Johnson and Evans and commented on what they said with this:

"I just knew this thing read like a train wreck. They can't even honor his origin without going all 'PC' on it. Lame..."

Would you accept now, having been offered an interpretation of those words that shows they are perfectly valid for Captain America, that your comment was unjustified?

That is what I responded to after all, not what you have changed to above.

Read my statement above. I stand by it. If you take away the message, you are missing the point. IF Johnston feels like he can't let Steve Rogers wave the flag because it might offend someone, then he doesn't understand what Captain America stands for. He stands for EVERYONE. Which means if your from Australia, YOU should have pride in your country. If your from IRAQ, you should have pride in your country. If your from America, you should have pride in America. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Webhead38]

Goodness Webhead, do you understand anything about Captain America, or any hero for that matter?

Clearly your too young to understand it. Because if you lived it, you would get it.

 

[captainrogers]

EXACTLY! Which means if he's wearing it, then he must BELIEVE in something it stands for. Yes? Let's not stray off course here. If a man is going to wear his country's symbol and give his life for his country then he stands for his country, like you would for yours? YES? What is wrong with that? That has NOTHING to do with saying the country is BETTER or "invented values". It's saying we should ALL have pride in our heritage and where we came from. Just like Egyptians in America are marching in protest to the violence in their native country. Well, that is PRIDE. I respect that. And THAT is what Captain AMERICA is suppose to be about. It's not excluding people. It's saying he represents something we should all have for own country. How can't you see that?

Good Lord, man. You've absolutely got me cross-eyed. Are you arguing us, or your earlier post?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, 'cause my wife usually says that last line to me whenever we have a "debate".... Better to be happy, than right, y'know.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah, Cap's not about pride in your country..

He's about our ideals. universal ideals. of freedom and liberty and all that jazz.

He might've been propaganda when they started the comic, but his purpose has changed dramatically since then. And even back then, he wanted to go to war ahead of his government, because he knew what was right, as a human. Not as an american.

 

[wobbly]

Read my statement above. I stand by it. If you take away the message, you are missing the point. IF Johnston feels like he can't let Steve Rogers wave the flag because it might offend someone, then he doesn't understand what Captain America stands for. He stands for EVERYONE. Which means if your from Australia, YOU should have pride in your country. If your from IRAQ, you should have pride in your country. If your from America, you should have pride in America. What is so hard to understand about that?

Once more, where in what Johnson or Evans said do they say he will not have pride in America?

You made a false presumption because you did not read their words properly (evidently did not see the word 'just' and just read it as 'not an American hero').

Are you standing by that?

 

[Webhead38]

Good Lord, man. You've absolutely got me cross-eyed. Are you arguing us, or your earlier post?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, 'cause my wife usually says that last line to me whenever we have a "debate".... Better to be happy, than right, y'know.

All I'm trying to say is we're on the same side. I want it to be good like you do. We're both Cap fans. I just view Cap' as a metaphor. That's how he's been conceived, illustrated, and presented since day one. I never thought for five seconds that because of which country he came from, that somehow that changed the meaning for other folks here. It's universal.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

I disagree entirely Webhead and I think you've misunderstood what Captain America is fundamentally about. He's not about having pride in your country, he's about having pride in people, encouraging people to be the best they can be. It's not about doing your country proud, it's bigger than that. Countries are tied to governments, cultural conventions. The things Cap represents, freedom, hope, peace, they are global.

 

[Webhead38]

Once more, where in what Johnson or Evans said do they say he will not have pride in America?

You made a false presumption because you did not read their words properly (evidently did not see the word 'just' and just read it as 'not an American hero').

Are you standing by that?

Once again your putting words in my mouth I never said. I said, and have elaborated in length, that Captain America has been and will always be portrayed as a patriot for his country. But it's symbolic of how all people should feel about their country too. I NEVER said anything about being better. That's all on your presumption, which is false. What I don't like that Johnston said, was this idea that Steve Rogers is just a "good person". Well no *****. Does anyone do these things that is otherwise? It just SOUNDS like he doesn't want him to wave the flag, which means he's missed the essence of the character, which is pride in country. What country he came from is moot. It's the metaphor. Does that the clear the air?

 

[Mercurius]

All I'm trying to say is we're on the same side. I want it to be good like you do. We're both Cap fans. I just view Cap' as a metaphor. That's how he's been conceived, illustrated, and presented since day one. I never thought for five seconds that because of which country he came from, that somehow that changed the meaning for other folks here. It's universal.

But Webhead, I think captainrogers agrees on that universal quality of Captain's ideals.

His post a page ago explaining how Captain is fighting for a dream of freedom & liberty is very clear on this respect, I suppose.

It even reminded me of what Captain says to the corrupt General in Daredevil: Born Again, that he is not serving under any of them, but he is true to the dream.

 

[Webhead38]

I disagree entirely Webhead and I think you've misunderstood what Captain America is fundamentally about. He's not about having pride in your country, he's about having pride in people, encouraging people to be the best they can be. It's not about doing your country proud, it's bigger than that. Countries are tied to governments, cultural conventions. The things Cap represents, freedom, hope, peace, they are global.

So if Captain America was real and you walked up to him and said, "I hate my country." You think he wouldn't frown on that? Would he want you to abandon your country? No. He would want you to use those elements of freedom, hope, and peace and go back and make it a better place. That's what Captain America found out about his own country. And that's why he stands for all nations.

 

[Webhead38]

But Webhead, I think captainrogers agrees on that universal quality of Captain's ideals.

His post a page ago explaining how Captain is fighting for a dream of freedom & liberty is very clear on this respect, I suppose.

It even reminded me of what Captain says to the corrupt General in Daredevil: Born Again, that he is not serving under any of them, but he is true to the dream.

Like I said. I think we're on the same side. I think I just worded some things that got taken out of context. Captain America is universal. Absolutely.

 

[The Infernal]

Like I said. I think we're on the same side. I think I just worded some things that got taken out of context. Captain America is universal. Absolutely.

I think it's probably past time this was laid to rest. It doesn't seem like anything new can really be said to this arguement and it's possible that there were some wires crossed. It doesn't matter now though because there does seem to be somewhat of a consensus of what Cap is supposed to be.

 

[wobbly]

Once again your putting words in my mouth I never said.

No, I am asking you if you stand by your comment (your words) made in response to Johnson and Evans:

"I just knew this thing read like a train wreck. They can't even honor his origin without going all 'PC' on it. Lame..."

Do I really have to ask again?

I said, and have elaborated in length, that Captain America has been and will always be portrayed as a patriot for his country. But it's symbolic of how all people should feel about their country too. I NEVER said anything about being better. That's all on your presumption, which is false.

Because of how you clearly took Evans words to mean they are diluting his origins I showed you why they do not mean that at all.

I stated that a 'good person' and 'ideal human' are not exclusive to being American as further illustration as to how accurate Evans description actually is.

Got it yet? This is about you jumping the gun on what Evans said, being shown you were wrong to do so, but being too stubborn to admit it.

What I don't like that Johnston said, was this idea that Steve Rogers is just a "good person". Well no *****. Does anyone do these things that is otherwise? It just SOUNDS like he doesn't want him to wave the flag, which means he's missed the essence of the character, which is pride in country. What country he came from is moot. It's the metaphor. Does that the clear the air?

And once more where in what they said is there actual evidence they have 'missed the essence of the character', when it's been shown to you what they said is a perfectly valid and accurate description of his character?

 

[JAK®]

Johnston doesn't want him 'waving the flag' because it's easy for that kind of behaviour to look corny and repulsive. The flag-waving, overly patriotic American is a negative stereotype for most of the world, and Johnston wants the character to present an alternative, more subtle way to promote his pro-American message.

 

[Webhead38]

No, I am asking you if you stand by your comment (your words) made in response to Johnson and Evans:

"I just knew this thing read like a train wreck. They can't even honor his origin without going all 'PC' on it. Lame..."

Do I really have to ask again?



Because of how you clearly took Evans words to mean they are diluting his origins I showed you why they do not mean that at all.

I stated that a 'good person' and 'ideal human' are not exclusive to being American as further illustration as to how accurate Evans description actually is.

Got it yet? This is about you jumping the gun on what Evans said, being shown you were wrong to do so, but being too stubborn to admit it.

And once more where in what they said is there actual evidence they have 'missed the essence of the character', when it's been shown to you what they said is a perfectly valid and accurate description of his character?

Let me answer all of that with how I see Captain America. To me Captain America was about this disabled kid who bought into the patriotism of his country. He read the propaganda and he bought into it all the way. So much that he agreed to be a guinea pig for an experiment that would allow him to "serve" his country. Becoming Captain America revealed to him the many lies within the propaganda. But that didn't stop him from loving his country and trying to live up to the values of what got him there, even if his own country didn't stand behind them. He wanted to represent his country with dignity. And I think that is what Captain America is all about. It's about pride in your own country and being the best you can be. If your country doesn't agree, maybe YOU can be the start of something to transform it into that better place. So it's universal in scope.

So, in my mind, if the director shies away from the patriotism aspect of that message, he's lost the character. Because THAT is the essence of what got him there. So yes. I stand behind my words based on what Johnston said. I am worried that he's falling away from that message which I think is critical to Captain America. And trust me. I'm right with you. I hope I'm wrong. But I got the feeling he wanted to make Captain America a generic hero and not hit on those points that I mentioned. There has to be motivation. And his patriotism is his motivation. Not only in the beginning, but throughout.

 

[JAK®]

But Johnston has never said that Steve Rogers will not be patriotic.

 

[wobbly]

Let me answer all of that with how I see Captain America

No. Because that is not relevant to the simple question that was put to you.

So yes. I stand behind my words based on what Johnston said.

That's more like it. So....From this:

“Scripts had been developed that took place half in World War Two, half in the modern day and none of those scripts were particularly successful because the costume ended up overshadowing the man,” says Marvel chief Kevin Feige. “So we finally said, ‘If we could make a Captain America movie any way we wanted to make it, how would we make it?’ Well, we’d set the entire movie in the past, in that period, with all of the Marvel trimmings. And so we made the fun, kick-ass Captain America movie we wanted to.”

“I’ve always loved Raiders and the tone that it had,” says director Joe Johnston. “It was period but didn’t feel like it was made in the period. It felt like a modern-day film about the period, which is what we’re doing on Captain America. It will not feel like a war movie. It’s funny where it needs to be and emotional where it needs to be and serious and full of action.”

And he's not just an American hero, argues Evans. “I think he’s the ideal human,” says Evans. “Not just American. It’s what being a good person is. Steve’s managed to overcome all the shortcomings he’s had in life and he does what’s good and what he believes is right.”

You arrived at this:

I just knew this thing read like a train wreck. They can't even honor his origin without going all 'PC' on it. Lame...

And although shown how that description of Cap is actually spot on you stand by that conclusion.

Thanks. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

So if Captain America was real and you walked up to him and said, "I hate my country." You think he wouldn't frown on that? Would he want you to abandon your country? No. He would want you to use those elements of freedom, hope, and peace and go back and make it a better place. That's what Captain America found out about his own country. And that's why he stands for all nations.

No, I think he would frown on the idea of hate in general, which I think is exactly what Evans was saying. He's the perfect HUMAN, and we're all human, regardless of what country we're from. That's why he's bigger than just a nation. He's globally significant.

 

[Webhead38]

And although shown how that description of Cap is actually spot on you stand by that conclusion.

Thanks. That's all I wanted to know.

I'm reading it different from you, so yes I stand by the train wreck scenario. Especially from what Evans says. Captain America is about the myths nations sell to their people and how one man tried to overcome that myth by being true to himself and transforming a nation to those ideals. What I see missing in Chris Evans statement is the idea that Rogers is influenced only by his set backs and not by what he thought his country stood for. It sounds more like a message of personal struggle and less about the message his country gave him that got him there. Perhaps the film will cover that. But if it doesn't then they've completely missed the point. Steve Rogers did not become Captain America because of his disabilities.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

You are basing an entire angle of the story or what they have or haven't missed from one quote of Evans talking about his character. Nothing Evans said cancelled out anything you just said in that post. Again, it's a ridiculous level of extrapolation. Essentially all Evans said was that he overcame the odds to do whats right and what he believes in. How does that possibly negate any of Captain America's values? How?!?

 

[Webhead38]

You are basing an entire angle of the story or what they have or haven't missed from one quote of Evans talking about his character. Nothing Evans said cancelled out anything you just said in that post. Again, it's a ridiculous level of extrapolation. Essentially all Evans said was that he overcame the odds to do whats right and what he believes in. How does that possibly negate any of Captain America's values? How?!?

I never said it did. What may or MAY NOT be missing is the heart of the character. Captain America is not an origin like Spider-man, Batman or Daredevil. He didn't just come into being by overcoming personal setbacks. That is a common thread in all heroes. It's in his name and on his costume. YES, he must have the set backs. YES, he must have those struggles to take that journey from belief to realization. But what made him take the journey to begin with? Was it his handicap? No sir. Was it because he couldn't get a good job and this was his best hope for a career? Nope. He read the propaganda about his country at war and yearned to be a hero for that cause. When he got his chance, that's when he takes the journey. Not to discover what Steve Rogers is about. He already knows he's a good person with good values. The journey is to find out what Captain America is about. Yes, it could be in there. I'm not saying it's not. BUT if it were, it seems apparent they would be talking that angle up. I'm not hearing that. Captain America must have his journey. Because THAT is what makes him. THAT is the essence of him. Without that, you only have half a story.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

But they have talked about that! That one quote doesn't reflect everything thats ever been said about, and I still think it addresses what you want anyway! Don't forget Steve Rogers and Captain America are the same people. You can't have one grow exclusively without the other. Steve Rogers grows into his role sure, but Captain America's real power comes from how other people view him, what he begins to represent.