The Official Final Fantasy XII Thread

[Brainiac 8]

I want this game, but I'm too busy playing the wii.

 

[Mr. Credible]

this is better than anything on the wii so far.

 

[Hades]

I really like the story and dialouge so far.

Sure it might not be as "deep" as some of them, or character driven, but it feels very mature, almost movie like. I like the political tone.

 

[Substance D]

I beat the game last night. The ending is really cool. I finished with around 65 hours.

[BLACKOUT]I was expecting more out of the storyline. Vaan and Penelo really have no reason to be there. The ending was satisfying, except for Basch's part. It was kind of sick what happened to him. His identity is stripped away. He was my favorite character too. Balthier and Fran go out with a bang though.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Man the voice acting for this game just blows me away the further I progress.

 

[Substance D]

Man the voice acting for this game just blows me away the further I progress.

Except for Al-Cid's voice.

 

[Mr. Credible]

Except for Al-Cid's voice.

exactly what i was abou to say... he's such a bag of *****e.

 

[Fenrir]

I've just finished the game and I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. The game started out so strong in terms of storyline but it never really takes off. Sure, the dialogue and the writing was great, the voice acting excellent (but still a few kinks in the armor) but the characters were pretty flat. None of them really had a deep enough backstory and this game also forsook the FF tradition of giving each character an extensive subplot - bad idea. The story was more like a monorail trip from point A to B instead of a rollercoaster ride like many other FFs. In fact, of all the FFs I've played, I can't think of any entry in the series weaker than 12 in terms of overall plot.

Such a shame though. I loved Basch and Balthier and with a little more development, they could have become truly memorable.

Anyways, the gameplay was a blast though. And it must be said - sometimes, the difficulty is just ridiculous. Zodiark, Gilgamesh and Yiazmat almost made me give up on this game before completion. Be warned - if you're looking to get all the Espers and finish all hunts, you're going to have to put a lot, and I mean a lot of effort and patience into it.

It's a pretty good game when all is said and done, but it's still a ways off from being a tier 1 Final Fantasy, let alone being one of the best RPGs. Sony fanboys overhyped this one and it didn't meet expectations. Again, I totally agree with Gamespot's rating of FFXII. It deserves nothing more than a 9.0.

 

[Substance D]

It's funny how you're all ****s and giggles over a game with no storyline and only 10 hours of gameplay, but suddenly FF12 doesn't meet YOUR expectations, so everyone is a Sony fanboy.

 

[Fenrir]

It's funny how you're all ****s and giggles over a game with no storyline and only 10 hours of gameplay, but suddenly FF12 doesn't meet YOUR expectations, so everyone is a Sony fanboy.

I don't think anyone honestly expected the story in Gears of War to be something mega spectacular. We've known long since before the game was released that it's neck deep in cliches and will probably be a throwback to the 80's action era. Even the reviewers unanimously agreed that Gears was particularly weak on plot, but where it faltered, it more than delivered with it's unmatchable presentation. "only 10 hours of gameplay"? You do know that Gears has got a *gasp* fantastic multiplayer mode that has dethroned Halo 2 over Xbox Live, doncha bubby? I started Gears of War expecting a great game, not a great story and that's exactly what I got.

But FFXII had been herailed as the best FF since the very first Japanese Famitsu review hit the net. And from there onwards, just about everyone praised the game for it's twist n' turn ridden storyline and intriguing characters and whatnot and the game barely managed to deliver even half of those promises. And then there was Zenien adding more fuel to the hype machine over here posting even more reviews and going all ga-ga over it. For such a lengthy game, FFXII sure does feel hollow when it comes to the overall story. My expectations for FFXII were no different than what I (or anyone else for that matter) expect from any Final Fantasy.

Oh and it's funny how you chose to compensate for the inadequacies of FFXII by questioning my preference for another game instead of actually responding to the points of criticism that I raised. Sony fanboy indeed.

 

[Substance D]

I don't think anyone honestly expected the story in Gears of War to be something mega spectacular. We've known long since before the game was released that it's neck deep in cliches and will probably be a throwback to the 80's action era. Even the reviewers unanimously agreed that Gears was particularly weak on plot, but where it faltered, it more than delivered with it's unmatchable presentation. "only 10 hours of gameplay"? You do know that Gears has got a *gasp* fantastic multiplayer mode that has dethroned Halo 2 over Xbox Live, doncha bubby? I started Gears of War expecting a great game, not a great story and that's exactly what I got.

But FFXII had been herailed as the best FF since the very first Japanese Famitsu review hit the net. And from there onwards, just about everyone praised the game for it's twist n' turn ridden storyline and intriguing characters and whatnot and the game barely managed to deliver even half of those promises. And then there was Zenien adding more fuel to the hype machine over here posting even more reviews and going all ga-ga over it. For such a lengthy game, FFXII sure does feel hollow when it comes to the overall story. My expectations for FFXII were no different than what I (or anyone else for that matter) expect from any Final Fantasy.

Oh and it's funny how you chose to compensate for the inadequacies of FFXII by questioning my preference for another game instead of actually responding to the points of criticism that I raised. Sony fanboy indeed.

Exactly. I honestly think people who say Gears does not have much of a plot and is riddled with cliches like it is a bad thing are morons.

Okay, so you admit that it has a crappy story, but then label anyone who thinks it's crappy as a moron? So you're a moron then?

And seriously, with every game there's always some over eager fanboy posting rave reviews and saying it's the second coming. You learn to ignore them.

But getting back to FF12, I actually agreed with most of your points. Read my post above. I disagree on what you said about Balthier and Basch. I beleive those are two of the main characters that received an adequate amount of development. Ashe and Fran being the other two. Vaan is presented as the main character, and I was waiting for his importance to the plot to be revealed, but it turns out he didn't really have any. And Penelo... well, I guess she's just there for the ride.

There might not be as many character moments, but I feel this is a good case of quality over quantity. The characters get their feelings out, make their decisions and then move on. They don't sit around and act like drama queens like in previous FF games. The dialogue is sharp and decisive. The character's histories are integrated organically into the storyline. In most FFs, character development usually happens this way: Character runs into something/someone from his/her past, or you visit that character's hometown. **** goes down, and the character is forced to confront his past. Character triumphs and grows, determined to see the main quest through to the end. In FF12, the characters don't have time to pursue their own agendas, the main conflict is always the center of the narrative.

And I found Balthier very memorable. He's a great character, and he steals most of the scenes he's in.

Personally, I feel that FF12 deserves around a 9.4. Like YOU said before, the gameplay is a blast. And when you say the story isn't up to par, what other games are you comparing it to? The storyline is still better than 90% of the other RPGs out there. (I heard Oblivion is famous for it's memorable characters and emotionally charged storylines...) And it's funny that you point out the Famistu score as being the exception, when it averages above a 90% in most reviews:

http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=15 GameSpot
10/31/2006
9 out of 10
90.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=503 GameSpy
10/30/2006
5 out of 5
100.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=1188 IGN
10/27/2006
9.5 out of 10
95.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=53 Official Playstation Magazine
11/1/2006
10 out of 10
100.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=706 Electronic Gaming Monthly
11/1/2006
9 out of 10
90.0%
Game Informer
11/1/2006
9.25 out of 10
92.5%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=46 GamePro
10/31/2006
5 out of 5
100.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=702 PSM Magazine
10/1/2006
9.5 out of 10
95.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=1026 Worth Playing
11/21/2006
9.8 out of 10
98.0%
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/sitedetails.asp?siteid=1437 Gaming Target
11/17/2006
10 out of 10
100.0%


So in the end, you're more than welcome to your opinion, but don't try to pass it off as the majority's. And I'm not a Sony fanboy. I rarely play videogames at all...

 

[Fenrir]

Okay, so you admit that it has a crappy story, but then label anyone who thinks it's crappy as a moron? So you're a moron then?

No, you are the moron here for his apparent failure to read such a simple thing. What I said was - " I honestly think people who say Gears does not have much of a plot and is riddled with cliches like it is a bad thing are morons". I've acknowledged that Gears has cliches and not much of plot, but it still works great because of the awesome presentation. Really, it doesn't make you look good when you take words out of context from my post like that. Such diseased dishonesty will get you nowhere. This is my post in question in it's entirety:

Exactly. I honestly think people who say Gears does not have much of a plot and is riddled with cliches like it is a bad thing are morons. Thanks to the game's high production values and awesome presentation, even though many feel the story was lacking, cinematically speaking it was still presented extremely well that really made it seem reminiscent of the many great 80's action movies.

And Gamespot summed up on thing excellently in their review regarding what "sophisticated" jackasses say about the "poor" dialogue in Gears - the heroes in Gears of War are grunts, they are hardened soldiers, they are trained to kick ass and take names and in Gears, they talked exactly how one would realisitically expect them to. And I really cherished that element in the game. Gears is never afraid to be "dumb", if contextually speaking that is the best option.

I don't see anything wrong there. Would you mind pointing it out?

And seriously, with every game there's always some over eager fanboy posting rave reviews and saying it's the second coming. You learn to ignore them.

I couldn't because I'm a FF fanboy myself. Pity you have such low standards but I'm not surprised really. Since you claim to be not much of a gamer, you don't have a clue as to how storylines are so much better in other games that are in the same class as FFXII.

There might not be as many character moments, but I feel this is a good case of quality over quantity.

No, it's not. None of the characters recieved sufficient exposition. It's called lazy writing.

The characters get their feelings out, make their decisions and then move on. They don't sit around and act like drama queens like in previous FF games. The dialogue is sharp and decisive. The character's histories are integrated organically into the storyline.

There are many different things that are barely even touched by the storyline in FF12. For example, if Balthier was a judge, why didn't Gabranth or Bergan recognize him? Surely the only son of the very own Doctor Cid wouldn't have been such an obscure personality in Archadia. We know that there's bad blood between father and son, but what exactly happened between them? Why did he become a sky pirate and when? How long was he a judge? How did he meet Fran?

Why exactly is Vayne so much more ruthless and malicious than his younger brother who is the exact opposite? Why was Venat helping Cid and Vayne? What was she getting out of it? What really happened between her and the other gods?

Similarly, why did the game gloss over the brotherly relationship between Basch and Gabranth? Why wasn't it looked at in more detail? Why does Basch serve Dalmasca so emphatically? What's his complete story? It's not a fact unknown that Basch characteristically resembles Auron in a lot of ways, but Auron was simply a much more stronger character because he was fleshed out so well.

In most FFs, character development usually happens this way: Character runs into something/someone from his/her past, or you visit that character's hometown. **** goes down, and the character is forced to confront his past. Character triumphs and grows, determined to see the main quest through to the end.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about - character development, something that is lacking in FF12.

In FF12, the characters don't have time to pursue their own agendas, the main conflict is always the center of the narrative.

But the characters are always driven by their agendas. It's their primary motivation that gives them the will to see their quest to the end. They may have a common goal but every character is in the fray for his own reasons and his own purposes. It's a pretty basic element of storytelling that applies to FF12 as well. Only difference is FF12 doesn't place satisfactory emphasis on it's characters.

And I found Balthier very memorable. He's a great character, and he steals most of the scenes he's in.

Yet he was quite underdeveloped and could have been so much better. A perfect example of wasted potential. Same goes for Basch too.

Personally, I feel that FF12 deserves around a 9.4. Like YOU said before, the gameplay is a blast.

Unfortunately storyline is significantly more important in an RPG than in other genres which is why FF12 loses points. The gameplay is great sure, but I don't play RPGs to fight Bahamuts and complete side-quests. It's for the story, everything else is just icing on the cake. If a story isn't compelling enough, there is simply no motivation for me to invest my time in RPGs like Final Fantasy. Unless of course it is a true RPG like Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights that are not completely driven by the story but rather the actions of the player.

And when you say the story isn't up to par, what other games are you comparing it to? The storyline is still better than 90% of the other RPGs out there.

Yes, compared to all RPGs that also includes crap titles, yes it is better. But "better" does not necessarily mean great. Despite it's superior dialogue, the plot of FF12 pales in comparison to FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, FFX, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Xenogears, all of which have been made by the very same company.

Which consequently brings me to another problem I have with the storyline in FFXII. From the beginning of the game, it's all about overthrowing the Archadian Empire and despite some startling revelations, there are no real twists or turns in the actual storyline. For example, FFVII starts with fighting the Shinra, then it slowly diverts towards Cloud's personal Vendetta against Sephiroth which then turns into a quest to save the planet, and that too giving sufficient time for each and every major character to develop and grown on his own. See how the game keeps interesting by spicing the storyline and then intertwining all of those into a single objective?

Even in FFX, it starts with Tidus' arrival into a new world and from there onwards, proceeds to tell his tale as a guardian on his quest to defeat Sin. Then there is an extensive telling of his relationship with Auron and Jecht. Add to that the love story with Yuna and his attempt to get back to his own time. See that there are several different subplots at work here that form together to become a coherent, immersive storyline?

And my personal favorite example - Xenogears, that still holds the crown for the best and deepest storyline in a game, ever. There are so many different subplots, it's amazing how the game keeps track of them and ties them with each other.

The story of FFXII can be summed up best as a one-way street with no crossings or intersections. It is like I said, monotonous and too focused on a singular goal. Even the individual storylines of many major characters have a noticeably lighter impact on the overall plot than it should.

(I heard Oblivion is famous for it's memorable characters and emotionally charged storylines...)

Oblivion is famous for being a true RPG where the player drives the game instead of being driven by the storyline. In Oblivion you're not stuck with multiple characters with singular roles. Rather you have a single character that can play multiple roles, even at the same time. It's all about choice and experimentation.

You can be a badass assassin who kill targets with his blade, staged "accidents" or even paranoia.

You can be an noble knight that chooses to defend the Emperor.

You can be the honorable thief that steals from the rich and gives to the poor.

You can be the mage whose tales of power, knowledge and wisdom travel to the farthest reaches of the land.

You can be the prophesized hero whose advent will hope to bring peace and tranquility to the kingdom.

You can be the necromancer who awakens the dead and summons unimaginable abominations.

You can be the stealthy archer who can hit the eye of a bird from half-a-mile away without making a sound.

You can be the monk who breaks his enemies with his bare hands.

You can be the vampire who preys on unwary bystanders to quench his nightly bloodlust and fears the rays of dawn.

You can be a legend whose very mention demands admiration and envy.

You can be one and/or all of the above.

Yeah, I'd love to a Final Fantasy try and pull that off.

And it's funny that you point out the Famistu score as being the exception, when it averages above a 90% in most reviews:
GameSpot
10/31/2006
9 out of 10
90.0%

GameSpy
10/30/2006
5 out of 5
100.0%
IGN
10/27/2006
9.5 out of 10
95.0%
Official Playstation Magazine
11/1/2006
10 out of 10
100.0%
Electronic Gaming Monthly
11/1/2006
9 out of 10
90.0%
Game Informer
11/1/2006
9.25 out of 10
92.5%
GamePro
10/31/2006
5 out of 5
100.0%
PSM Magazine
10/1/2006
9.5 out of 10
95.0%
Worth Playing
11/21/2006
9.8 out of 10
98.0%
Gaming Target
11/17/2006
10 out of 10
100.0%

Please, take a reading comprehension class:

But FFXII had been herailed as the best FF since the very first Japanese Famitsu review hit the net.

I never stated the Famitsu score (which if I remember correctly, was the highest score ever given to a Final Fantasy by the publication and it most certainly doesn't deserve it) as being the exception, but rather one that started the whole unabashful praise machine for this game. Besides, didn't I already state that I agreed with Gamespot's verdict of the game?

So in the end, you're more than welcome to your opinion, but don't try to pass it off as the majority's. And I'm not a Sony fanboy. I rarely play videogames at all...

My opinion is right, justified and well articulated on all points unless of course, you prove otherwise. And majority opinion always has little relevance to the merits and demerits of anything.

 

[Substance D]

No, you are the moron here for his apparent failure to read such a simple thing. What I said was - " I honestly think people who say Gears does not have much of a plot and is riddled with cliches like it is a bad thing are morons". I've acknowledged that Gears has cliches and not much of plot, but it still works great because of the awesome presentation. Really, it doesn't make you look good when you take words out of context from my post like that. Such diseased dishonesty will get you nowhere. This is my post in question in it's entirety:

Okay, but you can't understand why people would think those things are bad? Sometimes people want something that is original and fresh. And you acuse me of having low standards? Let's just forget that the story is unoriginal, the character's backgrounds and actions are never explained, etc etc. You're basically listing what makes a story bad, but then you call anyone who actually says it's bad a moron. That makes sense. As long as it's pretty and flashy, it's good to me.

And I didn't call you a moron, I was just pointing out that by your own logic, you called yourself one.


I don't see anything wrong there. Would you mind pointing it out?



I couldn't because I'm a FF fanboy myself. Pity you have such low standards but I'm not surprised really. Since you claim to be not much of a gamer, you don't have a clue as to how storylines are so much better in other games that are in the same class as FFXII.

I've played enough games, read enough books, seen enough movies to know what works. Or at least works for me. I really could care less what you think.

No, it's not. None of the characters recieved sufficient exposition. It's called lazy writing.

I already agreed with that.

There are many different things that are barely even touched by the storyline in FF12. For example, if Balthier was a judge, why didn't Gabranth or Bergan recognize him? Surely the only son of the very own Doctor Cid wouldn't have been such an obscure personality in Archadia. We know that there's bad blood between father and son, but what exactly happened between them? Why did he become a sky pirate and when? How long was he a judge? How did he meet Fran?

I agree, alot was left untouched. Some of it can be attributed to keeping the characters mysterious and keeping players guessing. Alot of what you brought up isn't integral to the plot and you can fill in the gaps yourself. Personally, I prefer it that way. But it's true, they left alot out and that can be seen as a flaw. Again, I agree with you that the plot was weak and things could have been fleshed out more. But it was pretty clear why Cid and Balthier had a falling out.

Why exactly is Vayne so much more ruthless and malicious than his younger brother who is the exact opposite? Why was Venat helping Cid and Vayne? What was she getting out of it? What really happened between her and the other gods?

Sorry, but you're making yourself look like a fool here. Pay attention. He wanted house Solider to survive. He was fulfilling the role the gods gave him as well. Alot of this is easy to figure out if you actually listened. Larsa obviously took after his father, who seemed more compassionate and honorable than Vayne. Who knows how long Vayne was being influenced by Vanar? And it doesn't matter, he saw what he was doing as the best for his people. He wasn't totally evil, and he made his motives clear. The story gives you what you need and moves on. It doesn't dwell on things and continually hit you over the head with it like the previous titles.

Similarly, why did the game gloss over the brotherly relationship between Basch and Gabranth? Why wasn't it looked at in more detail? Why does Basch serve Dalmasca so emphatically? What's his complete story? It's not a fact unknown that Basch characteristically resembles Auron in a lot of ways, but Auron was simply a much more stronger character because he was fleshed out so well.

Please, the only reason Basch resembles Auron is because people thought he was going to be the badass of the team and he's always pictured holding a twohanded sword. Basche is way different from Auron. Auron is more of a utilitarian, take no names leader type. He doesn't care about your feelings, and his mind is situated solely on the mission. Sure, he has his soft side, but it's hidden under layers of badassery and arrogance. Bashe is humble, and a bit of a martyr. He's not afraid to show his feelings, and he helps others at the cost of his own well-bring. He's not gruff and aloof like Auron. He's actually very polite and well-spoken.

Seriously, why do you need everything spelled out for you? And how was Auron any more fleshed out? Why did he become a gaurdian? Where was he born? How exactly was he involved with raising Tidus? How was he able to slip into Tidus's world and back into the present time? What's his complete story? What about Lulu? Where did she train at? Etc, etc. None of that matters, and it leaves things to the player's imagination.

And from what I gathered, Gabranth felt that Basch abandoned their homeland of Landis. I imagine Basch joining Dalmasca because he beleived in their cause more than the Empire's (since they did invade his homeland). And Gabranth joined the Empire to get back at Basch, and because they were the garaunteed winners. It's really not that hard to grasp. Try using your imagination, it's fun.


And that's exactly what I'm talking about - character development, something that is lacking in FF12.


But the characters are always driven by their agendas. It's their primary motivation that gives them the will to see their quest to the end. They may have a common goal but every character is in the fray for his own reasons and his own purposes. It's a pretty basic element of storytelling that applies to FF12 as well. Only difference is FF12 doesn't place satisfactory emphasis on it's characters.

FF12 is no different, the writing just doesn't hit you over the head with it repeatedly. They give you all you need, for the most part. I agree that they should have developed Penelo and Vaan more. The rest were fine and received about the same amount of attention as any other FF. Either way, it was enough to make you feel attached and know their objectives.

Yet he was quite underdeveloped and could have been so much better. A perfect example of wasted potential. Same goes for Basch too.

Han Solo is one of the most popular characters in pop culture. When did the movies ever dwell on his past?

Unfortunately storyline is significantly more important in an RPG than in other genres which is why FF12 loses points. The gameplay is great sure, but I don't play RPGs to fight Bahamuts and complete side-quests. It's for the story, everything else is just icing on the cake. If a story isn't compelling enough, there is simply no motivation for me to invest my time in RPGs like Final Fantasy. Unless of course it is a true RPG like Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights that are not completely driven by the story but rather the actions of the player.

The story worked well enough for me. Sorry you didn't feel the same way. And games like Oblivion get boring, because after awhile you realize that you're just running around in a sandbox. You don't care about the characters or the world. Running around setting cows on fire and stomping on soldier's dinners gets old. Games like Oblivion are on the total opposite end of the spectrum. I'm not saying that makes either type better than the other. They're just different experiences and you play them for different reasons.

Yes, compared to all RPGs that also includes crap titles, yes it is better. But "better" does not necessarily mean great. Despite it's superior dialogue, the plot of FF12 pales in comparison to FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, FFX, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Xenogears, all of which have been made by the very same company.

It's healthy that you have your own opinion. Have fun with that.

Which consequently brings me to another problem I have with the storyline in FFXII. From the beginning of the game, it's all about overthrowing the Archadian Empire and despite some startling revelations, there are no real twists or turns in the actual storyline. For example, FFVII starts with fighting the Shinra, then it slowly diverts towards Cloud's personal Vendetta against Sephiroth which then turns into a quest to save the planet, and that too giving sufficient time for each and every major character to develop and grown on his own. See how the game keeps interesting by spicing the storyline and then intertwining all of those into a single objective?

Even in FFX, it starts with Tidus' arrival into a new world and from there onwards, proceeds to tell his tale as a guardian on his quest to defeat Sin. Then there is an extensive telling of his relationship with Auron and Jecht. Add to that the love story with Yuna and his attempt to get back to his own time. See that there are several different subplots at work here that form together to become a coherent, immersive storyline?

Again, FF12 has those things. They just aren't as obvious, because instead of worrying about banging Yuna, the characters are more concerned with this whole continent engulfing war. The element that Ashe might have a thing for Bashe isn't important. Seriously, if you like the main characters acting like highschoolers that's cool. I enjoyed FFX too, FF12 is just different. The characters in FF12 just have their priorities straight.

And in case you haven't figured it out, the whole main character learning about his secret origins and then having his world turned upside down was really getting old in FF to the point where they weren't even trying anymore and it just felt tacked on. Suddenly Zidane is a clone. Suddenly Tidus is from a dream. *Yawn* I was waiting for the point where you learn that Vaan is really Rasler's brother. LOL.

But FF12 did have a twist. You learn that their gods are secretly supressing mankind's evolution. You can take it as you will, but at least the writers didn't resort to cheap shock tactics like previous FF games.

And my personal favorite example - Xenogears, that still holds the crown for the best and deepest storyline in a game, ever. There are so many different subplots, it's amazing how the game keeps track of them and ties them with each other.

The story of FFXII can be summed up best as a one-way street with no crossings or intersections. It is like I said, monotonous and too focused on a singular goal. Even the individual storylines of many major characters have a noticeably lighter impact on the overall plot than it should.

Oblivion is famous for being a true RPG where the player drives the game instead of being driven by the storyline. In Oblivion you're not stuck with multiple characters with singular roles. Rather you have a single character that can play multiple roles, even at the same time. It's all about choice and experimentation.

You can be a badass assassin who kill targets with his blade, staged "accidents" or even paranoia.

You can be an noble knight that chooses to defend the Emperor.

You can be the honorable thief that steals from the rich and gives to the poor.

You can be the mage whose tales of power, knowledge and wisdom travel to the farthest reaches of the land.

You can be the prophesized hero whose advent will hope to bring peace and tranquility to the kingdom.

You can be the necromancer who awakens the dead and summons unimaginable abominations.

You can be the stealthy archer who can hit the eye of a bird from half-a-mile away without making a sound.

You can be the monk who breaks his enemies with his bare hands.

You can be the vampire who preys on unwary bystanders to quench his nightly bloodlust and fears the rays of dawn.

You can be a legend whose very mention demands admiration and envy.

You can be one and/or all of the above.

Yeah, I'd love to a Final Fantasy try and pull that off.

That's not the point of FF. Never has been. I'm sure Square could do something like that though. The art design, writing and huge worlds in FF12 are a testament to that. But they have no reason to because people don't play FF for that. They play for the characters and story, like you said above.

Why don't the creators of Oblivion try creating memorable characters, or riveting plots like FF? Or better yet, start small by hiring better concept artists and making their worlds look unique instead of the next D&d/Tolkien ripoff? What's stopping them from combining the best of both worlds?

Please, take a reading comprehension class:

I never stated the Famitsu score (which if I remember correctly, was the highest score ever given to a Final Fantasy by the publication and it most certainly doesn't deserve it) as being the exception, but rather one that started the whole unabashful praise machine for this game. Besides, didn't I already state that I agreed with Gamespot's verdict of the game?



My opinion is right, justified and well articulated on all points unless of course, you prove otherwise. And majority opinion always has little relevance to the merits and demerits of anything.

You're opinion isn't right or wrong. It's just your opinion. Look at your post. It's basically saying,"I like this, and you're wrong for thinking differently." It's not presenting any facts.

No one is calling you an Xbox fanboy because you like Gears of War. So why are you labeling anyone who likes FF12 as a Sony fanboy, which would be the majority of gaming publications and gamers in general? Grow up.

 

[Substance D]

Oh, and what made Seymour so evil?

 

[XwolverineX]

FF games NEED storylines though, they're character driven RPG's. Gears is a shooting game.

 

[Substance D]

FF games NEED storylines though, they're character driven RPG's. Gears is a shooting game.

FF12 does, Fenrir just doesn't like the way it's presented. It's funny, I read that Gamespot review and it doesn't mention anything bad about the story.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Well All I've got to say is that Its a about time I've played a Final Fantasy game with a bit of a challenge, not terribly hard but at least I actually have to think tactically while I'm playing. All of the others were pretty easy imo.

 

[Fenrir]

Okay, but you can't understand why people would think those things are bad? Sometimes people want something that is original and fresh.

There is practically nothing in the gaming world that is completely original and fresh. Technically speaking, FF12 is just as derivate and unoriginal as Gears of War, since it does NOTHING that hasn't been done before.

And you acuse me of having low standards? Let's just forget that the story is unoriginal, the character's backgrounds and actions are never explained, etc etc. You're basically listing what makes a story bad, but then you call anyone who actually says it's bad a moron. That makes sense. As long as it's pretty and flashy, it's good to me.

Did you even fully read that post of mine that you quoted earlier? All that you said about Gears' storyline can be said about most classic 80s action movies, yet they are classics in their own right. The characters in Gears remind me a lot of the soldiers in McTiernan's Predator - none of them are well-written characters by any means, but they still fit in well with the situation. There is no sense in criticizing them for not having backgrounds or detailed motivations because they are not in a drama with extensive character study. They are in a sci-fi action movie and they are there to do what they do best - wreak havoc and rain chaos. Same goes for Gears. It never promises of being some deep analysis of the psyche of it's protagonists. Instead, it delivers on the premise of being a kickass action game in the vein of 80s action movies just like it was intended and expected to.

And I can't even begin to explain the overflowing stupidity of comment about Gears' excellent presentation equals "pretty and flashy". Oh yes, let's just totally forget about the fact that all the characters move and talk like hardened grunts like they are realistically expected to, the level of detail that went into their creation, the superb music, the thumping sound effects, the top-notch voice acting and despite the fact that it borrows heavily from standard sci-fi cliches, the game plays it straight and serious without any nudges, winks or tonges in cheek. Gears has by far the most immersive atmosphere of any game to date and it's cutscenes have a very professionally cinematic flair to them and the whole experience feels like an interactive big budget sci-fi movie.

But nooooo, that's not what Gears' presentation is about at all. It's the "pretty and flashy" graphics, man!

And I didn't call you a moron, I was just pointing out that by your own logic, you called yourself one.

Pity you failed to grasp my logic in the first place.

I've played enough games, read enough books, seen enough movies to know what works. Or at least works for me. I really could care less what you think.

Really? It's a shame you didn't realize that sooner when you got ticked off by my criticism of FF12. Self-contradiction is a *****, ain't it bubby?

I agree, alot was left untouched. Some of it can be attributed to keeping the characters mysterious and keeping players guessing.

Mysterious is just a pretty word to compensate for such inadequacies.

Alot of what you brought up isn't integral to the plot and you can fill in the gaps yourself.

No, but it certainly would have made it more richer and interesting. Otherwise, we'd just have the basic setup of good vs evil and be done with it. It's the details, the specifics and the unique subtleties that help a story shine. But hey, it's not integral to the plot, they can be damned eh? And I have low standards for expecting more out of a franchise that has a track record of delivering excellent storylines? Silly me.

Again, I agree with you that the plot was weak and things could have been fleshed out more.

Then why are we even having this argument?

But it was pretty clear why Cid and Balthier had a falling out.

Yeah, I know that too. But it did not recieve sufficient exposition which would have made the father-son relationship much more intriguing.

Sorry, but you're making yourself look like a fool here. Pay attention.

So says the fool who can't even remember proper spellings of the characters. Great going there, chump.

He wanted house Solider to survive. He was fulfilling the role the gods gave him as well. Alot of this is easy to figure out if you actually listened.

Yes, with two heirs to the Solidor family, they were afraid of their lineage being wiped out. And he was fulfilling the role the gods gave him? Weren't the gods angry at Vayne and Venat's tainted creation of the manufacted nethicite? How can they be angry at someone for fulfilling the role that they themselves gave him? Start making sense please.

Larsa obviously took after his father, who seemed more compassionate and honorable than Vayne.

Then why not Vayne? Obviously they are sons of the same father. Something must have happened for Vayne to become such a polar opposite of his father and his brother. What was it?

Who knows how long Vayne was being influenced by Vanar?

Venat has always been more of a guide than a possessor. It's clear from the storyline that Cid and Vayne were acting according to their own agendas.

And it doesn't matter, he saw what he was doing as the best for his people.

Yes, thrusting both empires in an unnecessary war when diplomacy was a ready and willing option was obviously in the best interest of his people.

He wasn't totally evil, and he made his motives clear.

Yes, and his motives were to eliminate and punish any who dare question his authoritarian rule over them. Vayne was an ideal example of an oppressive dictator who thrives on conquest and continually thirsts for greater power. How is that not evil enough is beyond me.

The story gives you what you need and moves on. It doesn't dwell on things and continually hit you over the head with it like the previous titles.

Yes, perhaps that is why you're using so many "who knows" and "maybes". Because the story gave you what you need and made everything oh-so-clear.

Please, the only reason Basch resembles Auron is because people thought he was going to be the badass of the team and he's always pictured holding a twohanded sword.

That and the fact they are both introverts who are protecting a younger, more fragile leader. Both are victims who've been wronged in the past. Both are more inclined towards "serving" instead of "leading". Both Auron and Basch have a certain wisdom that stems from their experience in life.

Basche is way different from Auron.

Not exactly. Basche is different, but he also shares a lot of similarities with Auron.

Auron is more of a utilitarian, take no names leader type.

Yet not once in the entire story does he ever take a leadership role. Sure, he gives wise counsel and advises his younger companions, but he never really leads the charge. "This is your story". Sums it up pretty clear.

He doesn't care about your feelings, and his mind is situated solely on the mission.

I don't know where you're getting this "doesn't care about your feelings" bit. Sure, Auron was pretty isolated from the rest of the group save for Tidus, but there wasn't a single moment where he was at odds with his companions for bluntly and carelessly saying something that was on his mind. Basch too, like Auron, speaks when he needs to and doens't waste his words.

Sure, he has his soft side, but it's hidden under layers of badassery and arrogance.

I concede that Auron was more of a badass than Basch, but "arrogant"?

Bashe is humble, and a bit of a martyr.

Auron may not be humble, but he's definitely a martyr. There you go, another similarity.

He's not afraid to show his feelings, and he helps others at the cost of his own well-bring.

Actually, Basch was almost just as reserved as Auron is. And helping others at the cost of his own well-being? Kinda sounds like Auron when he was put his line on the line and got killed by Yunalesca trying to save Brasca from the final aeon.

He's not gruff and aloof like Auron.

Oh he very much is. Not as "gruff" maybe but definitely[/I aloof. I distinctly remember him as the character who interacts the least with the other protagonists aside from Ashe.

He's actually very polite and well-spoken.

That he is. But it still doesn't change the fact that resembles Auron in a lot of ways.

Seriously, why do you need everything spelled out for you? And how was Auron any more fleshed out?

Uhhh, because he had a much more extensive backstory that was told in greater detail? I mean, it's such an obvious point.

Why did he become a gaurdian?

He refused to marry the daughter of a high priest and was cast out. Braska too was deemed an outcast for marrying a "heathen" Al Bhed woman who bore him a child that was half al-Bhed. Since both men shared a common ground, Braska enlisted Auron to become his guardian. The story lays it out pretty clearly. If only you "pay attention" you'd have stopped making yourself look like a "fool" already.

Where was he born?

And how does that have any relevance to the overall plot?

How exactly was he involved with raising Tidus?

He didn't "raise" Tidus, you nitwit. Tidus knew of him as his father's friend. Since both were Braska's guardians.

How was he able to slip into Tidus's world and back into the present time?

With Jecht's (who had become Sin at the time) help. Again, the game clearly explained this point as well.

What's his complete story?

Play the game. FFX did an infinintely better job at answering the questions about character relationships than FFXII. You're asking ******ed questions like "where was he born, where did she train" that has zero bearing on the overall plot. Some of your other question however, that ask about the nature of the characters' relationships with each other are valid because they affect the storyline and FFX did a good job of addressing them.

And from what I gathered, Gabranth felt that Basch abandoned their homeland of Landis. I imagine Basch joining Dalmasca because he beleived in their cause more than the Empire's (since they did invade his homeland). And Gabranth joined the Empire to get back at Basch, and because they were the garaunteed winners. It's really not that hard to grasp. Try using your imagination, it's fun.

Gabranth wanted to get back at Basch for fleeing from his homeland and he does so by joining the Archadian army, the very ones who attacked his homeland to begin with? Please, you're talking gibberish. The storyline clearly shows Gabranth hates his brother for still being able to retain his pride and dignity inspite of all that has transpired, when he himself couldn't even after allying with the ones who are triumphant.

But even so, it doesn't explain the real reasons that causes enmity between the brothers in the first place. If it was because Basch turned his back on his homeland, didn't Gabranth do the same by betraying himself to the Empire? How is that any different?

FF12 is no different, the writing just doesn't hit you over the head with it repeatedly. They give you all you need, for the most part. I agree that they should have developed Penelo and Vaan more. The rest were fine and received about the same amount of attention as any other FF. Either way, it was enough to make you feel attached and know their objectives.

Please, your apparent failure in providing definite, satisfactory answers from the game's story without speculation shows that FFXII's story is lacking in terms of proper exposition.

Han Solo is one of the most popular characters in pop culture. When did the movies ever dwell on his past?

They didn't because they never brought it up in the first place and it would have little relevance to the core plot. Solo was a lone wolf and didn't have anything to do with other major characters prior to meeting with Luke and Obi Wan.

On the other hand, Luke's past is dwelled upon in greater detail, because his story is directly related to that of other major characters and so it becomes necessary to elaborate them.

Balthier and Basch also clearly have their own histories that mingle directly with that of other major characters and the game's storyline does talk about it occassionally. It just didn't put enough emphasis on it.

The story worked well enough for me. Sorry you didn't feel the same way. And games like Oblivion get boring, because after awhile you realize that you're just running around in a sandbox. You don't care about the characters or the world. Running around setting cows on fire and stomping on soldier's dinners gets old.

If you are so big a dumbass as to think that's all you can do in Oblivion without attempting any meaningful quests that actually have an impact in the game and on your character, then you deserve to get bored.

Games like Oblivion are on the total opposite end of the spectrum. I'm not saying that makes either type better than the other. They're just different experiences and you play them for different reasons.

And that is exactly why your comparison of Oblivion's story with FFXII is downright stupid.

It's healthy that you have your own opinion. Have fun with that.

Of course I have an opinion. What matters is whether or not I am correct and judging by the lack of a substantial response on your part, it would seem that I am. Dismissing arguments as "it's only your opinion" is the oldest way of conceding in a discussion.

Again, FF12 has those things. They just aren't as obvious, because instead of worrying about banging Yuna, the characters are more concerned with this whole continent engulfing war. The element that Ashe might have a thing for Bashe isn't important. Seriously, if you like the main characters acting like highschoolers that's cool. I enjoyed FFX too, FF12 is just different. The characters in FF12 just have their priorities straight.

I love how you childishly and pitifully hold onto a single tangent about "banging Yuna" there and ignored EVERYTHING else I said about the stoyline elements in FFVII and FFX that were just as important to the plot as the main goal. Good work at showing us how much of a spineless, dishonest wretch you are. *applause*

And in case you haven't figured it out, the whole main character learning about his secret origins and then having his world turned upside down was really getting old in FF to the point where they weren't even trying anymore and it just felt tacked on. Suddenly Zidane is a clone. Suddenly Tidus is from a dream. *Yawn* I was waiting for the point where you learn that Vaan is really Rasler's brother. LOL.

Still, something is better than nothing. Oh and you ***** and moan about characters having secret origins, yet have NO problem with Gabranth and Basch being brothers or Balthier and Cid being father and son? Hypocrisy is a beautiful thing indeed.

But FF12 did have a twist. You learn that their gods are secretly supressing mankind's evolution. You can take it as you will, but at least the writers didn't resort to cheap shock tactics like previous FF games.

Heh, you're reading something that isn't there and crediting the writers for it? LOL. WHEN exactly did talk of god "supressing" mankind's evolution ever come up in the entire course of the game? What the game DID talk about was the reasons for Archadia making manufacted nethicite was so that man could write his own history and be a master of his own fate instead of being a slave to the gods and do their bidding. And it's not like the gods IMPOSED their will upon man. That was simply the price for the power that was given to man by the gods - the Dynast King used that power in accordance with the rules of those who gave it to him to begin with.

That's not the point of FF. Never has been. I'm sure Square could do something like that though. The art design, writing and huge worlds in FF12 are a testament to that. But they have no reason to because people don't play FF for that. They play for the characters and story, like you said above.

Then what was the point of comparing the storylines of FF12 with Oblivion, and worse yet, Gears of War, chucky?

Why don't the creators of Oblivion try creating memorable characters, or riveting plots like FF? Or better yet, start small by hiring better concept artists and making their worlds look unique instead of the next D&d/Tolkien ripoff? What's stopping them from combining the best of both worlds?

Uhh, because that's how they want it to be like? The Elder Scrolls games have always been more of a medieval age fantasy rather than full-blown fantasy. The advantage of basing your art direction in reality is that it makes your world seem infinitely more believable than full-blown fantasies like FFXII. Keeping everything grounded so that the audience has an easy entry-point for the more bizarre and fantastical stuff coming ahead is always a good idea.

You're opinion isn't right or wrong. It's just your opinion. Look at your post. It's basically saying,"I like this, and you're wrong for thinking differently." It's not presenting any facts.

Did you even read my post? If I say FFXII's story is lacking because of the lack of emphasis on character development by presenting examples from the game's stroyline itself that clearly show the absence of sufficient exposition, how is it an "opinion"? When I say the FFXII has a monotonous storyline that never really branches into interesting subplots, how is that an opinion?

No one is calling you an Xbox fanboy because you like Gears of War. So why are you labeling anyone who likes FF12 as a Sony fanboy, which would be the majority of gaming publications and gamers in general? Grow up.

I said Sony fanboys overhyped the game but I never called the gaming publications as such, especially when I agree with *gasp* two of those very GAMING PUBLICATIONS regarding the deserving verdict fort FFXII. Grow a brain and you'll stop reading things that aren't there.

 

[Fenrir]

Oh, and what made Seymour so evil?

Did you even play FFX, chuck?

Seymour was a half Guado and half-human who was seen as an abomination by his tribe. His old "butler" Guano explicitly states it when you're in Guadosalam. Plus the sacrificial death of his mother in becoming a fayth for the final summoning when he was still a child to get the people to accept her son (there is a short cutscene explaining the story when you first walk through the Zanarkand ruins near the end of the game) was all reason enough for Seymour to become increasingly morose and cynical over the years. Driven to malice by hatred and tragedy is a very common element amongst many villains.

 

[Fenrir]

FF12 does, Fenrir just doesn't like the way it's presented. It's funny, I read that Gamespot review and it doesn't mention anything bad about the story.

There isn't anything particularly wrong about FFXII's presentation (although it still can't touch Gears of War with a mile long pole). My main beef is with the lacking story and the comparitively little character development and exposition.

 

[Substance D]

Yeah, I bet it took you a long time to copy most of that off of Wikipedia, you tool. Anyways, I'll reply to our "conversation" when I get home. TTYL.

 

[Benstamania]

After beating the game I can honestly say that I think I would take FFX over FF12, in the end the game just wasn't that good for a FF game.

Give me the remake of III on the DS anyday.

this is better than anything on the wii so far.

I'm shocked that you'd say that![/sarcasm]

 

[Mr. Credible]

thanks for all the spoilers, you jerks.

some of us haven't finished the game yet.

 

[MrHateYourself]

thanks for all the spoilers, you jerks.

some of us haven't finished the game yet.

It's too bad that you don't have the option to....I dunno....NOT read the thread.

Why would you come in this thread if you don't want spoilers, anyway? That is the most ******ed thing EVER. "Guys, let's talk about Final Fantasy 12, BUT....we can't say ANYTHING ABOUT IT."

Consider this thread as a door. If you open it and find your parents having sex, whose fault is it? YOURS, for opening the door. At least THIS door is clearly labeled "Parents Having Sex".

 

[C. Lee]

Then again....people could use the spoiler tag option provided....that makes it like two signs on the door saying be careful before entering.