The Official Final Fantasy XII Thread

[Zenien]

Wow Fenrir I wasn't aware that posting what were pretty overwhelmingly positive impressions about the game made me a Sony fanboy. Or that being a Sony fanboy is a requirement for having looked forward to and been active in sharing their excitment for the game.

Truely I thank you for showing humble being such as myself the way of light.

 

[Fenrir]

Yeah, I bet it took you a long time to copy most of that off of Wikipedia, you tool.

Yeah, and Wikipedia was making just up everything by it's own instead of writing about what was actually in the game (heck, I even cited instances in the game when those story sequences occur). ******.

 

[Fenrir]

Wow Fenrir I wasn't aware that posting what were pretty overwhelmingly positive impressions about the game made me a Sony fanboy. Or that being a Sony fanboy is a requirement for having looked forward to and been active in sharing their excitment for the game.

Truely I thank you for showing humble being such as myself the way of light.

You're welcome, dear.

 

[Substance D]

Fudge. I had a long reply, but I accidently hit the wrong key and closed the window. Anyway, I basically proved Fenrir wrong in many ways.

First, the information he posted about Auron isn't even in the game. It's from supplemental literature. This quote is the only refernce from the game Wikipedia had:

Braska: "Let's show them they're wrong. A fallen summoner, a man from Zanarkand... and a warrior monk, doomed to obscurity for refusing the hand of the priest's daughter. What delightful irony it would be if we defeated Sin!"(Final Fantasy X)


Also, the Wikipedia article that you plagiarized from states that Auron was indeed Tidus's mentor. Seeing as how Tidus and Auron clearly have a history together, and that there are no other parental figures present in Tidus's life, it's safe to say Auron did indeed have a role in raising him.

And here's a definition of a leader:

[FONT=&quot]1. somebody whom people follow: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]somebody who guides or directs others

Here are some quotes from the man himself:

[/FONT] Auron
"We rest here."

Wakka
"But, this is an Al Bhed shop!"

Auron
"Is that a problem?"

Wakka
"They don't believe in Yevon, and in Luca they..."
"They kidnapped Yuna!"

Auron
"Where were her guardians?"

[Wakka and Lulu place their hands to their foreheads]

Yuna
"Sir Auron's just concerned about your health."

Wakka
"I'm not tired one bit!"

Auron
"Well I am."

[He walks into the building; they follow him. The screen goes black as they sleep. Screen fades back in inside the building, known as Rin's Travel Agency]


Auron
"That's our cue, let's go."

Auron
"Don't tell Yuna you know about Sin and Jecht."
"You know her..."
"She would...distance herself from you."
"We do not want that."

Auron
"Next, we're going to Macalania Temple."
"Yuna can talk with Seymour there."
"We guardians will wait until they're done, and plan our next move."
"Understood?"

Auron
"We're all with you. Do as you will."

Auron
"We will protect Yuna from anyone."
"Even a maester."

Wakka
"This can't be happening."

Auron
"Go!"

Tidus
"No way! I'm fighting!"

[Auron takes out his sword and holds it in front of Tidus' face]

Auron
"I said go!"

Tidus
"So what do we do?"

[He turns away from the group]

Auron
"We think, and we wait."

For a guy that you say isn’t a leader, he sure does a lot of bossing around.

Second, Final Fantasy 12 isn't a character-driven narrative. It's plot-driven, and the people who are smart enough to realize this can see that it was successful in this. It seems Fenrir doesn't understand the difference, because the review he supports actually states the opposite of what he feels.

Third, many characters share those qualities. Basch and Auron are two totally different characters. Which one is better is your own opinion.


Forth, Fenrir stated that the characters motives and backgrounds aren't established enough, specifically Balthier's, Vayne's and Basch's. It seems he is unable to grasp the obvious from their actions and dialogue. See, that's important because that's how characters are developed in plot-driven narratives. Again, it's different, but that doesn't make it bad.

Here's Balthier's speech at Phon Coast, basically summing up everything about the character:

Balthier: I know somebody like that. He became obsessed with
Nethicite and blocked everything else out. Always saying
nonsensical things to himself. "Was it Eidos or was it Venus."
Who cares. Everything did was for Nethicite. He developed
airships, weapons and even me to be a Judge. Balthier: It's one of the skeletons in my closet. Anyway, I soon
ran away. From the obligation of being a Judge...from him.
Cidifus Dem Bunanza. Draklor Research Facility's Dr. Cid. The
Nethicite robbed him of his spirit and he stopped being himself.
Stopped being my father. Don't end up like that.(pause) I left.
I couldn't see him be taken in by that stone anymore. I left
under the impression that I'd become free. And yet, not knowing
it was Nethicite, I got my hands on the Twilight Shard, met you
and ended up here. In the end, I couldn't run away at all. That's
why I want to finish this. I'm done being strangled by the past.

You have to have you head pretty far up your ass not to realize the importance
of his speech. First of all, it clearly explains his falling out with Cid. Second, he
took to the skies because the sky represents freedom. And third, he realizes he
can't escape his past and that he's basically becoming like his father - obsessed
with Nethicite. Like I said before, the dialogue and actions of the characters
give you everything you need. It's sufficient, and if you think otherwise it's
your opinion or own failure to comprehend the obvious.

And Fenny, you were pretty much wrong about Vayne and Basch as well. Did
you even bother to pay attention?

Here's what your precious Wikipedia has to say about things:

On Basch:
After the Archadian Empire conquered their homeland, Basch fled to
Dalmasca, joining its militant force.

On Gabranth:
The leader of the Judges whose image is on the game logo. He
is also Basch's twin brother, Noah fon Ronsenburg, the man truly
responsible for the deaths of Reks and King Raminas. Unlike Basch,
he wholeheartedly supports Archadia, enlisting after their
homeland was conquered.

On Vayne:
At the age of 16, Emperor Gramis ordered him to kill his two
older brothers who were plotting treason, although officially it
was said that they both died in battle. Though he wields a
considerable amount of authority, Vayne does notabuse his power;
rather, he makes an effort to foster a positive relationship with
the conquered Dalmascans and insists that the welfare of the
people is his foremost concern.

In truth, Vayne, who is arguably
the main villain, wishes to be the new Dynast King to force his
ideals of peace at the cost of those in his way, setting the
events that framed Basch. To that end, he sought out the power of
the rogue Occuria Venat despite his dislike of the Occurias for
essentially controlling the Humes and their future. To ensure the
House of Solidor would be the central autocratic power of the
empire, Vayne poisoned his father and framed the Senate for this,
so as to both overthrow the Senate's control in the empire and insert
himself as its Emperor.

Vayne believes though. He believes that his hand is doing nothing but
good
for the strangled Dalmasca,that settling the rebel faction is order--
they are, after all, little more than terrorists under Ashe's lead.
He puts down Dalmascan insurgencies. He works to free Ivalice
from the control of the Occuria. He protects not only his younger
brother, Prince Larsa, but does the inhumane in order to keep Larsa
unsullied and idealist

And see, all of that is mentioned in the game! They didn't pull it out of a book.
Vayne is not a black and white character like Seymour. Seymour is clearly
insane. Vayne is making difficult choices, and assuming the role of dictator for
the good of his people, and quite possibly the good of all Ivalice.

And characters can often have multiple agendas and conflicting ideals. It's called
"character depth".
Maybe you've forgotten about such a concept from playing Gears of War so much.
The Occuria were using Vayne, and Vayne was using the Occuria. Cid and Vayne's
goals might have been different, but they coincided for the time being and they
were working together. You might even call the reveal of their true allegiances and
motives a "twist" or a "turn". See, FF12 has those too!

But the point is, you're as fallible as anyone else. Your opinion isn't right. Anyone
that liked the game more than you and is willing to defend it is not a Sony fanboy.
So shut up and know your place.

 

[Substance D]

Oh yeah, I was wrong about Seymour. I remember the parts detailing his past now. Thanks for that.

 

[Fenrir]

Fudge. I had a long reply, but I accidently hit the wrong key and closed the window.

Yes, that's about as convincing as the pitiful "dog ate my homework, sir".

Anyway, I basically proved Fenrir wrong in many ways.

Let's see how.

And here's a definition of a leader:

[FONT=&quot]1. somebody whom people follow: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]somebody who guides or directs others

[/FONT]Funny how you chose to ignore OTHER definitions of the word "leader" that would compromise your argument about Auron being one:

2. somebody or something in lead
3. somebody in charge of others
[FONT=&quot]

Here are some quotes from the man himself:

[/FONT] Auron
"We rest here."

Yuna
"Sir Auron's just concerned about your health."

Wakka
"I'm not tired one bit!"

Auron
"Well I am."

[He walks into the building; they follow him. The screen goes black as they sleep. Screen fades back in inside the building, known as Rin's Travel Agency]

Auron
"Next, we're going to Macalania Temple."
"Yuna can talk with Seymour there."
"We guardians will wait until they're done, and plan our next move."
"Understood?"

The man was tired and being a guardian who has already undertaken the pilgrimage before, he knew there wouldn't be another opportunity to rest for some time. That's why other guardians don't argue with him. Because he knew well and good what he was talking about. He was like the wise counselor of the group.

Wakka
"But, this is an Al Bhed shop!"

Auron
"Is that a problem?"

Wakka
"They don't believe in Yevon, and in Luca they..."
"They kidnapped Yuna!"

Auron
"Where were her guardians?"

[Wakka and Lulu place their hands to their foreheads]

He was questioning their opinions. How doe sthat make him a leader?

Auron
"That's our cue, let's go."

So he's a bit bossy. But being bossy doesn't really make you a leader.

Auron
"Don't tell Yuna you know about Sin and Jecht."
"You know her..."
"She would...distance herself from you."
"We do not want that.

He's giving sound advice.

Auron
"We're all with you. Do as you will."

Sounds more like someone who SERVES instead of LEADING.

Auron
"We will protect Yuna from anyone."
"Even a maester."

He was voicing his role as a guardian.

Tidus
"No way! I'm fighting!"

[Auron takes out his sword and holds it in front of Tidus' face]

Auron
"I said go!"

Tidus
"So what do we do?"

[He turns away from the group]

Auron
"We think, and we wait."

So you're implying just because someone is a leader, they can't be told what to do? I mean, it's indisputable that Cloud was the leader in FFVII, but throughout the game we see him being told by other people where to go and what to do. Communication works both ways and it doesn't impact the role of leadership.

For a guy that you say isn’t a leader, he sure does a lot of bossing around.

Auron wasn't the leader. The storyline of the game and his role in it makes it blatantly clear.

First, the information he posted about Auron isn't even in the game. It's from supplemental literature. This quote is the only refernce from the game Wikipedia had:

Braska: "Let's show them they're wrong. A fallen summoner, a man from Zanarkand... and a warrior monk, doomed to obscurity for refusing the hand of the priest's daughter. What delightful irony it would be if we defeated Sin!"(Final Fantasy X)

You moron, most of the information about the history between Jecht, Braska and Auron is contained in the Jecht Spheres that trigger cutscenes whenever you find one. "Supplemental literature"? Did FFX have a novel? Or a comic book? Or any other source for information that wasn't contained in the game?

Also, the Wikipedia article that you plagiarized from states that Auron was indeed Tidus's mentor. Seeing as how Tidus and Auron clearly have a history together, and that there are no other parental figures present in Tidus's life, it's safe to say Auron did indeed have a role in raising him.

Tidus being raised by Auron wasn't mentioned in the game (at least as far as I knew). What the game DOES mention is that Tidus knew of Auron as his father's friend and that is enough to sum up the basis of their relationship.

Second, Final Fantasy 12 isn't a character-driven narrative. It's plot-driven, and the people who are smart enough to realize this can see that it was successful in this. Forth, Fenrir stated that the characters motives and backgrounds aren't established enough, specifically Balthier's, Vayne's and Basch's. It seems he is unable to grasp the obvious from their actions and dialogue. See, that's important because that's how characters are developed in plot-driven narratives. Again, it's different, but that doesn't make it bad.

Unfortunately for you, you didn't realize the shortcomings in the storytelling of FFXII for being a plot-driven narrative ONLY instead of being BOTH plot-driven and character driven like it's predecessors and other prestigious RPGs like the Chrono series and Xenogears.

It seems Fenrir doesn't understand the difference, because the review he supports actually states the opposite of what he feels.

The review states that FFXII has "a good story (as a game) overall" and by all accounts I agree. But it doesn't compare FFXII's storyline to other Final Fantasies or even that of other games that have a much better story. My criticism was aimed at showing how high did the storyline of FFXII measure up against other similarly acclaimed games in it's class and the result is not good enough.

Third, many characters share those qualities. Basch and Auron are two totally different characters. Which one is better is your own opinion.

Really? Can you name some of them please, ones who have appeared in a Final Fantasy or any other RPG?

Here's Balthier's speech at Phon Coast, basically summing up everything about the character:

Balthier: I know somebody like that. He became obsessed with
Nethicite and blocked everything else out. Always saying
nonsensical things to himself. "Was it Eidos or was it Venus."
Who cares. Everything did was for Nethicite. He developed
airships, weapons and even me to be a Judge. Balthier: It's one of the skeletons in my closet. Anyway, I soon
ran away. From the obligation of being a Judge...from him.
Cidifus Dem Bunanza. Draklor Research Facility's Dr. Cid. The
Nethicite robbed him of his spirit and he stopped being himself.
Stopped being my father. Don't end up like that.(pause) I left.
I couldn't see him be taken in by that stone anymore. I left
under the impression that I'd become free. And yet, not knowing
it was Nethicite, I got my hands on the Twilight Shard, met you
and ended up here. In the end, I couldn't run away at all. That's
why I want to finish this. I'm done being strangled by the past.

You have to have you head pretty far up your ass not to realize the importance of his speech. First of all, it clearly explains his falling out with Cid.

Yes, I remember the Phon coast revelation quite vividly. It doesn't explain many things about the bad blood between Balthier and Cid. Like, we know Balthier ultimately cared for his father and this is evident when he walks up to him in his final moments. It was Cid's obsession with Nethicite that turned Balthier away. But why does Cid resent Balthier? Why didn't Gabranth or Bergan recognize him if he was a judge, or even as the son of the very own Doctor Cid? It's a glaring plothole just to get the "shock effect" of the Phon Coast revalation.

Second, he took to the skies because the sky represents freedom.

Symbolism can be applied anywhere and is never a compelling argument, chucky. "The sky represents freedom"? LOL, I can say the same for the vast and empty green Ozmone plains and you can't prove it wrong.

And third, he realizes he can't escape his past and that he's basically becoming like his father - obsessed with Nethicite. Like I said before, the dialogue and actions of the characters give you everything you need. It's sufficient, and if you think otherwise it's your opinion or own failure to comprehend the obvious.

Yes, sufficient enough to the point that you STILL haven't answered a lot of my questions.

And Fenny, you were pretty much wrong about Vayne and Basch as well. Did you even bother to pay attention?

Here's what your precious Wikipedia has to say about things:

On Basch:
After the Archadian Empire conquered their homeland, Basch fled to
Dalmasca, joining its militant force.

On Gabranth:
The leader of the Judges whose image is on the game logo. He
is also Basch's twin brother, Noah fon Ronsenburg, the man truly
responsible for the deaths of Reks and King Raminas. Unlike Basch,
he wholeheartedly supports Archadia, enlisting after their
homeland was conquered.

Yes, I know full and well that Basch fled to Dalmasca after his homeland was conquered and that Gabranth supports the empire. But Gabranth sees Basch as more than just a traitor to the empire. There is a more personal rivalry between them.

On Vayne:

At the age of 16, Emperor Gramis ordered him to kill his two
older brothers who were plotting treason, although officially it
was said that they both died in battle. Though he wields a
considerable amount of authority, Vayne does notabuse his power;
rather, he makes an effort to foster a positive relationship with
the conquered Dalmascans and insists that the welfare of the
people is his foremost concern.

Pity that you fail to read the very following words "In truth" after that paragraph that state the diplomat Vayne was only a cover for his true intentions.

In truth, Vayne, who is arguably
the main villain, wishes to be the new Dynast King to force his
ideals of peace at the cost of those in his way, setting the
events that framed Basch.

Sounds pretty evil to me.

To that end, he sought out the power of
the rogue Occuria Venat despite his dislike of the Occurias for
essentially controlling the Humes and their future.

That's exactly what I said in my last post about Cid and Vayne's intentions, jackass:

What the game DID talk about was the reasons for Archadia making manufacted nethicite was so that man could write his own history and be a master of his own fate instead of being a slave to the gods and do their bidding.

It is quite apparent now that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points.

To ensure the House of Solidor would be the central autocratic power of the empire, Vayne poisoned his father and framed the Senate for this,
so as to both overthrow the Senate's control in the empire and insert
himself as its Emperor.

Sounds a lot like the usual power-hungry wannabe dictator.

Vayne believes though. He believes that his hand is doing nothing but
good for the strangled Dalmasca,that settling the rebel faction is order-- they are, after all, little more than terrorists under Ashe's lead.
He puts down Dalmascan insurgencies.

Where are you pulling that from? Vayne abruptly refuses to seek an open diplomatic solution with the Dalmascans and the resistance, is spite of the insistence by his younger brother. You're talking about Vayne not being completely evil yet his plan to completely eliminate his enemies even when he was offerred a chance to peacefully negotiate with them is A-OK in your book? Bloody hypocrite.

He works to free Ivalice from the control of the Occuria.

And to eliminate both Rozarrian and Dalmascan empires so that HE gets total control of Ivalice. Yup, stereotypical dictator indeed.

He protects not only his younger
brother, Prince Larsa, but does the inhumane in order to keep Larsa
unsullied and idealist

Uhh...what?

And see, all of that is mentioned in the game! They didn't pull it out of a book.

Vayne is not a black and white character like Seymour. Seymour is clearly
insane. Vayne is making difficult choices, and assuming the role of dictator for the good of his people, and quite possibly the good of all Ivalice.

And characters can often have multiple agendas and conflicting ideals. It's called
"character depth".
Maybe you've forgotten about such a concept from playing Gears of War so much.

Pity such so-called "character-depth" is portrayed so poorly. And what have here? More expressions of Substance D's consistent insecurity by taking YET ANOTHER jab at Gears? Oh dear...

The Occuria were using Vayne, and Vayne was using the Occuria.

Umm, the Occuria wanted to PUNISH Vayne and the Empire for defying them by allying themselves with the "heretic" Venat. How were the Occuria USING Vayne again, chummy?

Cid and Vayne's goals might have been different, but they coincided for the time being and they were working together. You might even call the reveal of their true allegiances and motives a "twist" or a "turn". See, FF12 has those too!

Actually, both Cid and Vayne have always been on the same wavelength about freeing mankind from the control of the Occuria by duplicating the sources of their power with manufacted Nethicite. And they were both being guided by Venat all along. "Twist n turn" my ass.

Oh and why exactly was Venat helping Vayne and Cid? What did he hope to gain out of it?

But the point is, you're as fallible as anyone else. Your opinion isn't right.

Actually I am. This little discourse so far has proven at least that much.

Anyone that liked the game more than you and is willing to defend it is not a Sony fanboy.

OK, so in your case, they can also unenlightened idiots who don't know what they are they are talking about since you "rarely play videogames at all".

So shut up and know your place.

You're in no position to tell anyone to shut up, chucky, because had you known when to open and not to open your useless trap, you wouldn't have been so ticked off by my criticism of FFXII inspite of claiming that you "couldn't care less" of what I think. *sigh* Sometimes even a good ol' shot to ze foot is not enough to snap some people out of their idiocy.

 

[chosen1]

Just started playin this game. Anything I should know or do in the very begining..?

 

[Hades]

One thing I dislike about this game is it feels too much like an MMORPG

 

[Hades]

Just started playin this game. Anything I should know or do in the very begining..?

I'm not sure.

Plan out what types and classes you want your character at would probably be good.

And if you don't mind cheating, you can, right at the beginning

Easy way to level up supposedly. Look a few pages back and it'll say how to

Course, you won't be able to use limit breaks.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

One thing I dislike about this game is it feels too much like an MMORPG

Yeah that's true, except it doesn't take you days to level up.

 

[Substance D]

I ended up buying Oblivion last night along with my new computer. Half an hour into the game confirmed all of my doubts. It sucks. The character models are hideous. I downloaded the topless patch and it did nothing to improve the *********ion quality of the female characters. And why does the Emperor look like Don Murphy? You think with one of the most powerful character editors in an RPG, they could have used it to make a more noble looking human being. Instead you're forced to sit through tons of typical, uninspired dialogue while his frog face covers the screen and stares at you with brain dead eyes.

The presentation of the game feels like some poorly funded, indie game. The enviroments lack any thought or originality. The capital city looks small and unintimidating, like a cheap TV show set made out of foam. FF12's enviroments are more awe inspiring and grand than Oblivion's. It really looks like the developers just kept on hitting the random button on a terrain editor, unlike FF12's intricately designed cities and dungeons which are full of originality, granduer and detail.

Don't get me started on the stiff, robot facial expressions of Oblivion's characters. Even Patrick Stewart's voice loses it's effect when it's coming from a bad CGI actor. Keanu Reeves would win an Oscar in Oblivion's universe.

I stopped playing after the Emperor's poorly directed death scene. The game has you starting in a series of caves... which leads to a sewer... Wow, how exciting. From all the reviews and fanboy ejaculations, the rest of the game doesn't seem anymore interesting. Just a bunch of NPCs wandering about speaking with the same voices, muttering the same lines of dialogue over and over again, and then collecting and killing stuff with no big goal, memorable characters or sweeping narrative to keep you interested. Oh well, this saves me from going out and buying my brother-in-law a Christmas present...

 

[Substance D]

Yes, that's about as convincing as the pitiful "dog ate my homework, sir".



Let's see how.



[/font]Funny how you chose to ignore OTHER definitions of the word "leader" that would compromise your argument about Auron being one:

2. somebody or something in lead
3. somebody in charge of others
[font=&quot]


The man was tired and being a guardian who has already undertaken the pilgrimage before, he knew there wouldn't be another opportunity to rest for some time. That's why other guardians don't argue with him. Because he knew well and good what he was talking about. He was like the wise counselor of the group.



He was questioning their opinions. How doe sthat make him a leader?



So he's a bit bossy. But being bossy doesn't really make you a leader.



He's giving sound advice.




Sounds more like someone who SERVES instead of LEADING.



He was voicing his role as a guardian.



So you're implying just because someone is a leader, they can't be told what to do? I mean, it's indisputable that Cloud was the leader in FFVII, but throughout the game we see him being told by other people where to go and what to do. Communication works both ways and it doesn't impact the role of leadership.



Auron wasn't the leader. The storyline of the game and his role in it makes it blatantly clear.



You moron, most of the information about the history between Jecht, Braska and Auron is contained in the Jecht Spheres that trigger cutscenes whenever you find one. "Supplemental literature"? Did FFX have a novel? Or a comic book? Or any other source for information that wasn't contained in the game?



Tidus being raised by Auron wasn't mentioned in the game (at least as far as I knew). What the game DOES mention is that Tidus knew of Auron as his father's friend and that is enough to sum up the basis of their relationship.



Unfortunately for you, you didn't realize the shortcomings in the storytelling of FFXII for being a plot-driven narrative ONLY instead of being BOTH plot-driven and character driven like it's predecessors and other prestigious RPGs like the Chrono series and Xenogears.



The review states that FFXII has "a good story (as a game) overall" and by all accounts I agree. But it doesn't compare FFXII's storyline to other Final Fantasies or even that of other games that have a much better story. My criticism was aimed at showing how high did the storyline of FFXII measure up against other similarly acclaimed games in it's class and the result is not good enough.



Really? Can you name some of them please, ones who have appeared in a Final Fantasy or any other RPG?



Yes, I remember the Phon coast revelation quite vividly. It doesn't explain many things about the bad blood between Balthier and Cid. Like, we know Balthier ultimately cared for his father and this is evident when he walks up to him in his final moments. It was Cid's obsession with Nethicite that turned Balthier away. But why does Cid resent Balthier? Why didn't Gabranth or Bergan recognize him if he was a judge, or even as the son of the very own Doctor Cid? It's a glaring plothole just to get the "shock effect" of the Phon Coast revalation.



Symbolism can be applied anywhere and is never a compelling argument, chucky. "The sky represents freedom"? LOL, I can say the same for the vast and empty green Ozmone plains and you can't prove it wrong.



Yes, sufficient enough to the point that you STILL haven't answered a lot of my questions.



[/b]Yes, I know full and well that Basch fled to Dalmasca after his homeland was conquered and that Gabranth supports the empire. But Gabranth sees Basch as more than just a traitor to the empire. There is a more personal rivalry between them.



Pity that you fail to read the very following words "In truth"after that paragraph that state the diplomat Vayne was only a cover for his true intentions.



Sounds pretty evil to me.



That's exactly what I said in my last post about Cid and Vayne's intentions, jackass:



It is quite apparent now that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points.



Sounds a lot like the usual power-hungry wannabe dictator.



Where are you pulling that from? Vayne abruptly refuses to seek an open diplomatic solution with the Dalmascans and the resistance, is spite of the insistence by his younger brother. You're talking about Vayne not being completely evil yet his plan to completely eliminate his enemies even when he was offerred a chance to peacefully negotiate with them is A-OK in your book? Bloody hypocrite.



And to eliminate both Rozarrian and Dalmascan empires so that HE gets total control of Ivalice. Yup, stereotypical dictator indeed.



Uhh...what?



Vayne is not a black and white character like Seymour. Seymour is clearly
insane. Vayne is making difficult choices, and assuming the role of dictator for the good of his people, and quite possibly the good of all Ivalice.



Pity such so-called "character-depth" is portrayed so poorly. And what have here? More expressions of Substance D's consistent insecurity by taking YET ANOTHER jab at Gears? Oh dear...



Umm, the Occuria wanted to PUNISH Vayne and the Empire for defying them by allying themselves with the "heretic" Venat. How were the Occuria USING Vayne again, chummy?



Actually, both Cid and Vayne have always been on the same wavelength about freeing mankind from the control of the Occuria by duplicating the sources of their power with manufacted Nethicite. And they were both being guided by Venat all along. "Twist n turn" my ass.

Oh and why exactly was Venat helping Vayne and Cid? What did he hope to gain out of it?



Actually I am. This little discourse so far has proven at least that much.



OK, so in your case, they can also unenlightened idiots who don't know what they are they are talking about since you "rarely play videogames at all".



You're in no position to tell anyone to shut up, chucky, because had you known when to open and not to open your useless trap, you wouldn't have been so ticked off by my criticism of FFXII inspite of claiming that you "couldn't care less" of what I think. *sigh* Sometimes even a good ol' shot to ze foot is not enough to snap some people out of their idiocy.

Auron fits one of the definitions of a leader, so he could be described as a leader. I never called him the leader of the group, I just described him as having those qualities. And you questioned why I called him arrogant. The quotes I provided show that he is. He failed to protect his former companions. Then, soon after he joins Yuna, he's dishing out orders, expecting people to follow him. He also blatantly criticizes Lulu and Wakka's abilities as gaurdians. All this after he himself was unable to save Braska and Jecht.

And you get on to me about mispelling Venat (I had the subtitles turned off in the game, BTW. The voice recording quality is rather subpar due to compression) when you mispell Braska after copying and pasting an article with his name littered throughout.

You say I have poor reading comprehension, when you say you completely agree with a review that shares none of your points. Then you get on my case about using the words "leader" and "evolution" incorrectly, when various definitions of the word fit exactly what I'm getting across.

Sometimes even a good ol' shot to ze foot is not enough to snap some people out of their idiocy.

Tell me about it. Try shooting yourself in the head and rid us of your presence.

Oh yeah, the "dog ate my homework" thing? That's better than being a sneaky, lying, plagiarizing rat.

 

[Substance D]

In truth, Vayne, who is arguably
the main villain, wishes to be the new Dynast King to force his
ideals of peace at the cost of those in his way, setting the
events that framed Basch.

Oh yeah, it doesn't say he's evil. It says he's the villian. There's a difference. They're saying he's the main antagonist, not that he's evil. Other countries consider Americans as villians. Would you label yourself as evil?

And did you miss the scene where he decides he will do all the evil that is necessary to protect his kingdom? The speech about his hands already being bloodied? He's protecting Larza from having to do evil things in the future.

How many times do I have to say this? PAY ATTENTION.

 

[Fenrir]

Auron fits one of the definitions of a leader, so he could be described as a leader. I never called him the leader of the group, I just described him as having those qualities.

And didn't I concede that yes, he is a bit bossy but that doesn't necessarily make him a leader? If only you pull yourself out of such a constant state of brainfarting, you might be actually able to read what I say every now and then.

And you questioned why I called him arrogant. The quotes I provided show that he is. He failed to protect his former companions.

How can he "fail to protect his companions" when it was their decision to sacrifice themselves? BrasKa knew how the summoner's journey would end and Jecht himself volunteered to be turned into Sin. In fact, Auron was martyred by Yunalesca in trying to find a way that wouldn't neccesitate the sacrifice of his companions.

Again, way to make a complete ass out of yourself. Keep posting and you'll be making it all the more easier for me.

Then, soon after he joins Yuna, he's dishing out orders, expecting people to follow him.

People follow him because of his legendary status, not because he's bossy. You see in the game that Auron is quite well known and people don't object to his decision because he was the only one in the party who knew more than everyone combined. When you have someone amongst you who knows more than you do, you follow him, even if you are the leader and he isn't. Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being a thickhead for demanding to be the only guy who can give orders. But alas, such "philosophical" talk may be too much for your peanut brain to handle.

He also blatantly criticizes Lulu and Wakka's abilities as gaurdians.

And it was deserving criticism. That is why they fail to answer his question. It was a perfectly valid question. Both of them were too absorbed with Blitzball and it was partly because of their negligence as well that Yuna was kidnapped. In fact, Auron taking the lead amongst Yuna's guardians shows that he was the only one who knew full and well what it means to be a guardian.

All this after he himself was unable to save Braska and Jecht.

Yeah, save them from a fate they chose for themselves. Only morons like you would even contemplate holding a person responsible for the choices of others.

And you get on to me about mispelling Venat (I had the subtitles turned off in the game, BTW. The voice recording quality is rather subpar due to compression) when you mispell Braska after copying and pasting an article with his name littered throughout.

It was a typo, dumbass, not a deliberate misspelling blunder like yours. Can't you even figure that out after seeing I used "Brasca" only once but "Braska" several other times?

You moron, most of the information about the history between Jecht, Braska and Auron is contained in the Jecht Spheres that trigger cutscenes whenever you find one. "Supplemental literature"?

He refused to marry the daughter of a high priest and was cast out. Braska too was deemed an outcast for marrying a "heathen" Al Bhed woman who bore him a child that was half al-Bhed. Since both men shared a common ground, Braska enlisted Auron to become his guardian.

He didn't "raise" Tidus, you nitwit. Tidus knew of him as his father's friend. Since both were Braska's guardians.

Not only do you have piss-poor reading comprehension, but seem to be severely sight challenged too. Add to that your apparent intellectual handicap and I might as well argue with an autistic.

You say I have poor reading comprehension, when you say you completely agree with a review that shares none of your points.

Jesus...read you incorrigible bane of humanity you, READ!

The review states that FFXII has "a good story (as a game) overall" and by all accounts I agree. But it doesn't compare FFXII's storyline to other Final Fantasies or even that of other games that have a much better story. My criticism was aimed at showing how high did the storyline of FFXII measure up against other similarly acclaimed games in it's class and the result is not good enough.

How does it feel to consistently proving yourself as an illiterate jackass?

Tell me about it. Try shooting yourself in the head and rid us of your presence.

Yes, and eventually the planet will eventually be overtaken by turd-of-the-genepool tools like you. Mankind is doomed...

Oh yeah, the "dog ate my homework" thing? That's better than being a sneaky, lying, plagiarizing rat.

Yeah, like Wikipedia is some kind of academic or corporate institution that owns the information I'm taking from them for it to be some kind of plagiarism.

It's a ****ing public encyclopedia, you ******. Wikipedia doesn't own the info they get. They don't pay anyone to get it. And I can copy the info from their site and they can't do a damn thing to me about it. Please, go to ****ing college so that at least you will learn the practical and legal definition of the word "plagiarism" and it's proper application. Parents really shouldn't let half-wit high-schoolers go online anymore. It'll really solve the problem of overwhelming stupidity on the internet.

 

[Fenrir]

Oh yeah, it doesn't say he's evil. It says he's the villian. There's a difference. They're saying he's the main antagonist, not that he's evil. Other countries consider Americans as villians. Would you label yourself as evil?

Depends upon what criteria they consider Americans as evil.

If they say that on the basis of our ****ed up foreign policy, then yes, we are evil.

If they say that because of our giving the proverbial middle finger to the entire world and botch the quagmire that is Iraq, then yes, we are evil.

If they say that on the basis of the American administration's innumerable blunders since the Cold War, then yes, we are evil.

If they say that because of our increasingly corrupted corporate culture (Enron, WorldCom) that the government does nothing to straighten out, then yes, we are evil.

If they say that on the basis of our bull**** propaganda about freeing the oppressed from the cruelties of dictators and theocracies in Iran and Iraq yet turning a blind eye to the massacres in African nations (Rwanda, Darfur), then yes, we are evil.

If they say that on the basis of our hypocritical banter of spreading democracy with a hidden agenda of conquering foreign oil fields while curbing civil liberties of our citizens, then yes, we are evil.

You are called evil or otherwise based on your own actions. It's not just a difference of perspective. Anyone naive enough to still be absorbed in such delusions of self-importance desperately needs a heavy dose of reality.

And did you miss the scene where he decides he will do all the evil that is necessary to protect his kingdom?

Protect his kingdom from WHAT? Who was threatening him? He was protecting his throne like any diseased, power hungry tyrant. He didn't give a **** about his people. Only the domain of his rule. That's why he was pressing towards an unnecessary war with other kingdoms even after being offered a chance for peaceful negotiations.

Besides, he poisoned his own father and framed the Senate for his murder. To the purpose of what? So that House Solidor will be the only autocratic power in all of Archadia? Dastardly needs under the pretext of noble intentions. Only a fool would fall for such base trickery.

The speech about his hands already being bloodied? He's protecting Larza from having to do evil things in the future.

Give me a break. Violent suppression of resistance always only leads to more bloodshed. It's a very simple fact that has been supported by history countless number of times. And any ruler worth his salt knows that you can never really eliminate all of your enemies forever. Such ruthlessness only begets even more foes. And had Vayne succeeded, his actions would have only forced Larsa to take the same course as his brother if we wanted to stay on the throne.

Vayne appears to be sincere and noble, but in truth, he's nothing more than a stereotypical dictator who forces his own laws upon his subjects and engages in murderous massacres all under some ignorant delusion of having "the best intentions". The road to hell is clear indeed.

How many times do I have to say this? PAY ATTENTION.

I would if only you had a ****ing clue as to what you're talking about.

 

[Substance D]

*Yawn* Calm down, you're losing what's left of your composure. You're argument is starting to lose all substance, and instead half of it is made up of petty insults. Pretty lame.

Look, I thought your points were pretty valid from the beginning. It seemed you knew your stuff, and formed a reasonable opinion. Then you started copying articles from Wikipedia without giving a source, masking your lack of FF lore and hoping that no one would care enough to check. This after claiming to be a fan of the series. Then you insult my spelling, when you can't even spell Braska right. That's worse than my error, because I was going off of spoken dialogue. Venat is never mentioned on any website or literature connected to the game. You spelled Braska wrong after being surrounded by the name countless times. Talk about brainfarts...

Your views on the storyline would have been valid, but you show lack of comprehension on the game's most clearly defined plot developments. The characters clearly explain what is happening, yet it slips your grasp. Poor reading comprehension indeed. And that's not even including the Gamespot article you so heavily endorsed, yet in the end had nothing to do with any problems you brought up in your argument.

It's clear you're losing ground, Fenrir. You can't even make a decent argument anymore. Half of your posts consist of insults and finger pointing. No one can take you seriously anymore. Who knows how much of your past arguments have been copied and pasted. You're a joke. For someone quick to jump on other's flaws and inconsistencies, you sure do make alot of mistakes and misintrepretations yourself. You're a hypocrite.

It's no use arguing with you anymore. Yes, I know you'll take that as a sign of weakness and probably won't let me hear the end of it. The truth is, you're just not worth it. If there's anything else you fail to grasp about the game's storyline, try playing again and actually paying attention or you can check your precious Wikipedia. This time though, read past the first paragraph.http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geusVHp...2813218753_q-KwkzLe.KyO7haVID0sQq2gAAAA%40%40

 

[Ravensford]

So.... without inciting a riot, I'd like to change the subject if I may. Does anyone know how to consistantly chain the Mist Quickenings (limit-breaks)?

I've got 2 characters with one level each and can't seem to chain them to save my life (literally, read Game Over here...) I didn't see any FAQ's on it anywhere and can't check any other websites due to the ol' company firewall, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Substance D]

So.... without inciting a riot, I'd like to change the subject if I may. Does anyone know how to consistantly chain the Mist Quickenings (limit-breaks)?

I've got 2 characters with one level each and can't seem to chain them to save my life (literally, read Game Over here...) I didn't see any FAQ's on it anywhere and can't check any other websites due to the ol' company firewall, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

It's best to get all three quickenings for each character as soon as possible. First off, it triples your mp, second it raises the chances of a quickening appearing when you hit R2. When you have more quickenings, getting above 10 combos won't be a problem. Other than that, you just need quick reflexes.

 

[Ravensford]

When you hit R2? I thought you just selected Mist in the menu. Did I miss something in the instructions?

 

[MrHateYourself]

I ended up buying Oblivion last night along with my new computer. Half an hour into the game confirmed all of my doubts. It sucks.

WOE IS THE WORLD! It fails to deliver everything we knew and all that we didn't WITHIN A HALF HOUR! Tutorials, learning curve, intro, all be damned! You should be overwhelmed right at the start, or else it's untrue!

I believe it was you complaining about GOW on this thread? Notice how GOW delivered....EVERYTHING that it had in the first half hour, and the remainder was bland repitition? That's why Oblivion and other complex games don't throw everything at you at the beginning. It's NOT the same 3 hours in as it is half an hour in. I've only logged a few hours on Oblivion and if you're playing the same game after a few hours that were were after 30 minutes, the problem is yours. Not that you even bothered to give the game time to get rolling.

The presentation of the game feels like some poorly funded, indie game.

The sound of disdain suggests that you probably don't play many low budget games, so do you really have a good grounding for this comparison?

FF12's enviroments are more awe inspiring and grand than Oblivion's.

Complete with painfully small zones and 20 seconds or so of load time every few minutes. OPEN SPACES BE DAMNED!

It really looks like the developers just kept on hitting the random button on a terrain editor,

Kinda like how the REAL WORLD is pretty random? Hills and rivers everywhere, not a clearly cut and paced adventure!

unlike FF12's intricately designed cities and dungeons which are full of originality, granduer and detail.

I'm only as far as Vossler's death in FF12, and the dungeons are certainly not full of any of those things. Pretty bland, angular, and straightforeward so far.

I stopped playing after the Emperor's poorly directed death scene. The game has you starting in a series of caves... which leads to a sewer... Wow, how exciting.

Yeah, doesn't compare with FF12's grand experience of starting....in a desert...and leading into a sewer....and then into a mine. Wooo! EXCITEMENT! After that, it's a series of circular halls in an airship, THEN BACK TO ANOTHER DESERT! Yes, yes, ohgodyes, it's going to make me soil my pants...

Except after all of that, FF keeps on you a strict narrative and guide; whereas Oblivion lets you make it your own. YOU decide how much story you want, and gives more flexibility in your role. In FF, you revolve around the story. In Oblivion, the story revolves around you. Or doesn't. It's up to you.

 

[Substance D]

When you hit R2? I thought you just selected Mist in the menu. Did I miss something in the instructions?

When you hit Mist, it goes into a cutscene of them doing their attack. You'll see your character's names in the bottom right corner, above a timer. Everytime you hit R2, buttons will randomly appear next to their names. Hit one of the buttons before the timer runs out, and that will initiate another Quickening. You can repeat that over and over again until you miss the timer.

 

[Substance D]

WOE IS THE WORLD! It fails to deliver everything we knew and all that we didn't WITHIN A HALF HOUR! Tutorials, learning curve, intro, all be damned! You should be overwhelmed right at the start, or else it's untrue!

I believe it was you complaining about GOW on this thread? Notice how GOW delivered....EVERYTHING that it had in the first half hour, and the remainder was bland repitition? That's why Oblivion and other complex games don't throw everything at you at the beginning. It's NOT the same 3 hours in as it is half an hour in. I've only logged a few hours on Oblivion and if you're playing the same game after a few hours that were were after 30 minutes, the problem is yours. Not that you even bothered to give the game time to get rolling.



The sound of disdain suggests that you probably don't play many low budget games, so do you really have a good grounding for this comparison?



Complete with painfully small zones and 20 seconds or so of load time every few minutes. OPEN SPACES BE DAMNED!



Kinda like how the REAL WORLD is pretty random? Hills and rivers everywhere, not a clearly cut and paced adventure!



I'm only as far as Vossler's death in FF12, and the dungeons are certainly not full of any of those things. Pretty bland, angular, and straightforeward so far.



Yeah, doesn't compare with FF12's grand experience of starting....in a desert...and leading into a sewer....and then into a mine. Wooo! EXCITEMENT! After that, it's a series of circular halls in an airship, THEN BACK TO ANOTHER DESERT! Yes, yes, ohgodyes, it's going to make me soil my pants...

Except after all of that, FF keeps on you a strict narrative and guide; whereas Oblivion lets you make it your own. YOU decide how much story you want, and gives more flexibility in your role. In FF, you revolve around the story. In Oblivion, the story revolves around you. Or doesn't. It's up to you.

FF12 is on an inferior system, though. And the game isn't THAT linear. At least not as linear as previous FFs, and that's saying alot. My main problem with Oblivion is that it lacks originality of any kind. Also, freedom at the expense of a strong storyline just isn't my thing. I prefer a balance between the two. I see Bioware games as having that perfect balance.
I play Final Fantasy for the stories, characters and unique worlds. IMO, that's worth the sacrifice in freedom. Both Square and Bioware have shown growth. FF12 got rid of the random battles, opened up the world a little bit, and had a sophisticated script. Bioware's games on the other hand are becoming more cinematic and visually spectacular.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

So just out of curiosity. I'm pretty deep into the story line and Vaan doesn't really feel like the main character. It's all about Ashe and Balthier to some extent.

 

[Mr. Credible]

So.... without inciting a riot, I'd like to change the subject if I may. Does anyone know how to consistantly chain the Mist Quickenings (limit-breaks)?

I've got 2 characters with one level each and can't seem to chain them to save my life (literally, read Game Over here...) I didn't see any FAQ's on it anywhere and can't check any other websites due to the ol' company firewall, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

they hit at random, so you'll need a lot more quickenings to get bigger chains (i just beat one of the later bosses with a 23 hit chain+the black hole finisher)

limits/quickenings should be one of your first priorities in the game, because they are some of the most powerful attacks.

 

[Ravensford]

Yes! Thank you for the R2 tip! It's much better now. Is it easier to hit with just one person or with more? Can I just hold down the R2 button and the buttons for all of my chars to hit it as it comes up?