The Dark Knight Rises The Official Harley Quinn Thread

[Crook]

You don't have to argue it into oblivion. I just thought if you cared to defend your position, that I would clarify mines. We can just leave it as opposing tastes and leave it at that.

 

[soulonsale]

You don't have to argue it into oblivion. I just thought if you cared to defend your position, that I would clarify mines. We can just leave it as opposing tastes and leave it at that.

yerp

 

[Rasputin911]

Does this sound like a throwaway henchman to you?

um...yes. In fact, i thought you were making it clear Joker clearly considers her "throwaway"?

In TDK most of the Joker's pawns were clearly devoted to him. He "attracts" people, like you said about Manson. Harley isn't the only one. She is nothing special without the romance you claim isn't there. But the romance would be a distraction and out of character for the Joker. Either way she's lame

 

[Cunning Stunts]

um...yes. In fact, i thought you were making it clear Joker clearly considers her "throwaway"?

In TDK most of the Joker's pawns were clearly devoted to him. He "attracts" people, like you said about Manson. Harley isn't the only one. She is nothing special without the romance you claim isn't there. But the romance would be a distraction and out of character for the Joker. Either way she's lame

To be honest, I think what would separate her from the other pawns would be her sex, her attractiveness, her position on Gotham's society, and her evolved devotion to Joker- love. That love, however, I would more readily call obsession (which, as far as we can tell, none of the males have). I could easily see The Joker using this to manipulate her into doing his dirty work or anything else he may want.

I also don't see The Joker being capable of sexual relations with anyone (consensual or otherwise), as that would make it personal for him, and he's made it clear he holds no personal interest in anyone, even himself (you could argue that he's not our typical criminal, but he's still a human regardless, and as a human will, obviously, have human characteristics).

I think the best way to set Harley above the rest is to center her story on her obsession with The Joker, so much so that she's willing to do anything and everything for him, whereas other Joker pawns won't be nearly as willing. On top of that, give her higher status in society than any other Joker pawns (as a doctor, for the comic purists), so she'll have even more power than his average henchman will have. All in all, she'll just be the utmost form of a Joker imitator that takes it one step farther than the rest, and actually becomes a little bit of a force to be reckoned with on her own. I especially can't see Nolan's Joker showing any legitimate romantic interest in anyone.

 

[Crook]

um...yes. In fact, i thought you were making it clear Joker clearly considers her "throwaway"?

Christ, context please. In regards to Joker, she's throwaway in the sense that he's worthless to her when it comes to the wire. In regards to her merits as a character, she is far from "throwaway" material. Which is to say she has depth and can't be substituted for any number of cutout baddies.

In TDK most of the Joker's pawns were clearly devoted to him. He "attracts" people, like you said about Manson. Harley isn't the only one.

Harley is the only one with an actual story and character arc. Can you say the same for the thugs who are basically glorified cameos?

She is nothing special without the romance you claim isn't there.

What in the world does this even mean? Every character is a sum of its parts. Of course if you take out key aspects of that, they wouldn't be as special or interesting. But the point is moot because it wouldn't be Harley without that one-sided obsession and loyalty.

But the romance would be a distraction and out of character for the Joker. Either way she's lame

Obviously this discussion went nowhere. I made an effort to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were just misinformed of the character. Instead you have proven to ignore any sort of progressive discussion and want to pursue this notion that Harley has nothing to offer. This has been the text equivalent of a child covering his ears and yelling "blablablabla" when an adult tells them Santa isn't real.

 

[Rasputin911]

??

You act like the things you say are fact...but almost all has been opinion.

Maybe well-informed and devoted, but opinion regardless. "Harley isn't a good character and distracts from the Batman-Joker dynamic" isn't the same as "Santa is real." Jeez.

Lose the holier-than-thou attitude: you didn't create any of these characters, so don't push your opinion on the matter as gospel truth


In fact, the quotes from Dini, etc. you brought up earlier indicate that the relationship is actually two-sided, with Joker caring even if he doesn't want to admit it. And many people, some probably much more well-informed than you, see their relationship as a sexual one (the animated series dropped plenty of hints). And that would detract from the plot in a Nolan batflick

 

[Cunning Stunts]

Lose the holier-than-thou attitude: you didn't create any of these characters, so don't push your opinion on the matter as gospel truth

Holy crap, Crook, that's two of us in one night!

 

[Crook]

Not a single of my posts about Harley are about opinion. I've only repeated textbook facts about her history and continuing arc in the mythos. As I've said from the beginning, I really don't care if people like her or not. But it would be nice to actually base it upon facts.

Now, as for your other points: What have I said (about Harley) that is subjective? Where in Dini's words did you see him imply that Joker cares for her? The only examples shown in BTAS and TNBA of sexual nature, are Harley trying to seduce Joker. Joker himself has never advanced towards her, with the intent to respond in a similar manner.

All I ask for is specific examples. It's frustrating when you give statements that have not been backed up concretely.

 

[The Major]

Villian Sargeants (spelling) may work in Bond movies, but not really in superhero movies (Bane, ugh).

Raza was good in Iron Man, Catwoman was good in Batman Returns, Scarecrow was good in Batman Begins, Two Face was good in TDK, Reinhardt was good in Blade 2. Ursa was good in Superman 2. They can work when done well, Bane wasn't done well in Batman and Robin.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Let me fix this for you.



Harley can definitely work on her own without using The Joker, as I've explained before. On top of that, to assume that The Joker won't return because of Ledger's death is just ignorant. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again: this is a business, and they're going to do what they can to make the best movie because they want more money. If they see it that The Joker needs to be in the next film to continue the greatness of the series, then he'll be there.

It's not about Ledger. It's about the iconic character and his legendary rivalry with Batman.

I have to disagree.

First of all, who said anything about Joker not returning solely because of Ledger's death?

I am assuming Joker will not return (and my assumption is, of course, nothing more than my opinion) because there's only ever been one return appearance by a rogue in the history of the Batman films, and that turned out to be a minor appearance almost entirely unrelated to the major storyline (Scarecrow's cameo in TDK). And even still, it seemed to exist only to tie up a loose end from the previous film. So if I'm playing the odds, I'm gonna bet on the guess that the Joker will make like the other half dozen rogues of the films and call it quits at one.

Joker's story concluded in TDK. He has no loose ends. He's in prison/Arkham. Could he come back? Of course. Nolan avoided the mistakes of the past and kept the villain alive. Not necessarily for literal return appearances, but if only to sustain a larger Batman universe, populated by characters that may only continue to live off-screen.

As far as this relates to the classic Batman/Joker ongoing rivalry, I think Joker's speech at the end conveys that idea well enough without actually having to have another Batman vs Joker movie. Instead of Burton treating Joker as a one-off villain, Nolan's set-up a scenario where we can imagine this Batman and this Joker having countless battles till the end of time, without having to actually see them. I'm fine not seeing them. As much as I love the Joker, I'd rather see characters that haven't been done, like Black Mask, or Bane (Yes...Bane has never been done. Ever. There is no such film as Batman & Robin )

Does Ledger's death play into my assumption, and would it play into my decision, if I were in charge of Batman 3? Definitely. It's not the driving force, but it's definitely an aspect. Considering I would find a Joker return sort of pointless to begin with, the fact that we'd have to go through all the fuss of recasting seems to make the endeavor even more pointless to me.

My ultimate point being, had TDK left us with a cliffhanger ending directly connected to the Joker (say, Joker holding Alfred hostage or something, heh), of course I would be the first to say "Heath, you were great, but the show must go on!". But considering Joker's show has already come to a satisfying conclusion...well, that's that.

As far as Harley goes, I can't agree in any way that her character would remain nearly as strong without actual on-screen interaction with the object of her affection. If you want to rewrite her more as the "admires Joker from afar, obsessed fan" angle, that's an option. But that's not her character, or their relationship, as it's been written. His initial manipulation of her is key, as are his constant rejections of her affection. Without Joker on-screen with her, you're deprived of all of this. All you're left with is "I love/loved The Joker. I am here to continue his work."

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Now, as for your other points: What have I said (about Harley) that is subjective? Where in Dini's words did you see him imply that Joker cares for her? The only examples shown in BTAS and TNBA of sexual nature, are Harley trying to seduce Joker. Joker himself has never advanced towards her, with the intent to respond in a similar manner.

It's impossible to say that anything is 100% certain about the Joker. Chalk that up to his "unpredictability," (or, if I'm being cynical, inconsistent writing).

Because he has shown a modicum of affection for Harley. Off the top of my head, I recall he's called her pet names several times, "Poo," being one of them. At the end of Harlequinade he exclaims "Baby, you're the greatest!" and embraces her. He held her in his lap, I believe in World's Finest. He seemed to be content and open to her affection in Trial. There was even a story during No Man's Land where she got him to become jealous of another man and miss her company, leading him to desire to marry her. Now, I'm not saying that he loves her. I certainly could never see him sacrificing life and limb (nor much of anything, for that matter!) for her. On a good day (when he's being his least deranged and evil), she's an enjoyable novelty (what narcissist wouldn't occasionally enjoy a woman fawning over them?), worth having some fun with. On his worst day, she's fish food.

The point is, it's fun to analyze their relationship and try to get down to the grit of it, but when you do (at least when I do), I find that really...it's all for entertainment (which sounds like a "durr!" statement when we're talking about...entertainment media!). Their relationship changes based on the whims of the writer; whatever seems like a lark at the time. If Dini or someone else can get a joke out of the Joker being a tool to Harley, he takes it. If he can get a laugh out of Joker acting lovey-dovey, he'll go for that, too. Just like how Joker constantly switches back and forth between being totally fearless (jumping off buildings without abandon) to a comical scaredy-cat (shrieking like a schoolgirl at a similar danger).

 

[The Major]

Lose the holier-than-thou attitude: you didn't create any of these characters, so don't push your opinion on the matter as gospel truth

Neither did the film makers. Their versions were still good. No reason this couldn't translate into a great Harley.


edit: Excluding Schumacher.

 

[Crook]

Because he has shown a modicum of affection for Harley. Off the top of my head, I recall he's called her pet names several times, "Poo," being one of them. At the end of Harlequinade he exclaims "Baby, you're the greatest!" and embraces her. He held her in his lap, I believe in World's Finest. He seemed to be content and open to her affection in Trial. There was even a story during No Man's Land where she got him to become jealous of another man and miss her company, leading him to desire to marry her. Now, I'm not saying that he loves her. I certainly could never see him sacrificing life and limb (nor much of anything, for that matter!) for her. On a good day (when he's being his least deranged and evil), she's an enjoyable novelty (what narcissist wouldn't occasionally enjoy a woman fawning over them?), worth having some fun with. On his worst day, she's fish food.

Yes, you are correct. Doesn't change my point, however. The examples you gave were temporary, for lack of a better term. Even with people I hate or dislike, I'll have a fun or enjoyable moment with from time to time, you know? It's at the end of the day when his emotions are truly tested that matters. When it comes down to it, Harley is no more important to him than a lowly thug.

The point is, it's fun to analyze their relationship and try to get down to the grit of it, but when you do (at least when I do), I find that really...it's all for entertainment (which sounds like a "durr!" statement when we're talking about...entertainment media!). Their relationship changes based on the whims of the writer; whatever seems like a lark at the time. If Dini or someone else can get a joke out of the Joker being a tool to Harley, he takes it. If he can get a laugh out of Joker acting lovey-dovey, he'll go for that, too. Just like how Joker constantly switches back and forth between being totally fearless (jumping off buildings without abandon) to a comical scaredy-cat (shrieking like a schoolgirl at a similar danger).

I'm strictly talking about the core of the relationship. Obviously liberties will be taken into how their relationship is depicted, but for the most part writers don't blatantly step over each other's foot. Take your example of Joker. Surface level, it's different...but at the center of all the psychopathic aggressiveness or the comical loon, he's still a clown-faced serial killer.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Ah, I have learned many things on The Hype.

The biggest lesson I have learned? That it's impossible to go into any thread without seeing Crook argue to the death against someone's ideas or suggestions. It never fails.

 

[Crook]

This is a message board, yes? We're free to discuss disagreements, even if at times it seems long-winded. It's be pretty boring if the only responses were "agreed/disagreed". Let's take your post for example. The notion that discussions can----


Yes, I'm kidding.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Well played sir...Well played.

 

[Rasputin911]

Now, as for your other points: What have I said (about Harley) that is subjective? Where in Dini's words did you see him imply that Joker cares for her? The only examples shown in BTAS and TNBA of sexual nature, are Harley trying to seduce Joker. Joker himself has never advanced towards her, with the intent to respond in a similar manner.

All I ask for is specific examples. It's frustrating when you give statements that have not been backed up concretely.

"Harley has seen him cry"...This was also emphasized in Azzarello's GN. He allows himself to be vulnerable to her, but no one else.

"He's learning about those parts of himself..." She brings out something in him that no one else does.

Also, in Clown After Midnight (i think) he relents at the last minute and decides to "transform" her rather than kill her as originally planned. Still not very nice, but i wonder why he relented at the last minute?

He makes her into a constellation in Emperor Joker, as a place of honor.

No one is saying that this is a loving, healthy, equal relationship. His devotion/caring is obviously no where near her's. But he does care in spite of himself, which is what makes the relationship so interesting. She wouldn't have been around this long if she was only a tool

 

[MaxG]

Kristen Bell would make a great Harley Quinn.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Yes, she would.

 

[Ock]

Kristen Bell would make a great Harley Quinn.

i second that

 

[Adrian89]

I hope she won't make it into a Batman Movie...ever!

 

[Crook]

"Harley has seen him cry"...This was also emphasized in Azzarello's GN. He allows himself to be vulnerable to her, but no one else.

Arleen said that, not Dini. Anyhoo, I believe she's referring to Harley's psych sessions with Joker in Arkham. Where Joker basically lied his way into her heart. IIRC, he told several stories of physical abuse by his father, which is the reason he's the man he is today. That's how Harley has sympathized with him.

As for Azzarello's take....he turned Harley into a mute, stripper sidekick. Who knows what that relationship that was, certainly we didn't see enough to judge whether it was the traditional dynamic. Most likely not.

"He's learning about those parts of himself..." She brings out something in him that no one else does.

Yes, because they're both crazy and she's the only person in the world that "understands" him and has loyalty. I've said this already. He's kept her precisely because for the most part, she does more good at his side, rather than just being dead.

Also, in Clown After Midnight (i think) he relents at the last minute and decides to "transform" her rather than kill her as originally planned. Still not very nice, but i wonder why he relented at the last minute?

Because even psychopaths enjoy having similar company. Joker's manic and unpredictable, he's always changing his mind on things. One second he'll try to off her, but if he fails, he'll try hurting her in some other form. It's typical behavior.

He's the same way with Bats. You'll see several stories where he wants to kill Bats all by himself, and in others you'll see him stick up, and even save Bats. It's all fun and games for Joker. If keeping you around seems more like a fun idea, then he'll opt for that instead of murder. It doesn't mean he "loves" you, just that he's not done with you yet.

No one is saying that this is a loving, healthy, equal relationship. His devotion/caring is obviously no where near her's. But he does care in spite of himself, which is what makes the relationship so interesting. She wouldn't have been around this long if she was only a tool

Read above. It's "caring", but only to the point where it solely benefits himself. To look at it another way; do you think misogynists who constantly have random sex with multiple women actually care for the gender? If it's truly hate, they wouldn't want any part of them....at all. Do you get what I mean?

 

[Rasputin911]

I hope she won't make it into a Batman Movie...ever!

she's much better suited to comics

 

[KalMart]

I'm liking Fairuza Balk for HQ.....

But Murphy is still my #1 pick.

 

[shiveringmelody]

Kristen Bell would make a great Harley Quinn.

How I would love to see Harley on screen, but with Kristen.....omg, I can only imagine. Harley and Joker are by far the greatest character's in ever appear in comic's (to me personally lol).

One day she shall grace the big screen with Mr. J and then I can die a happy man.