Comics The Official Storm vs Jean thread

[Harlekin]

Interesting. I was going off my MURPG rules for the Phoenix Force character, where time travel, among other rediculousness, is all available. Perhaps I am mistaken.



And vice versa, assuming neither was defending themselves.

You're not. Sebita has this crazy idea that the powers shown in Here Comes Tomorrow don't apply to Jean.

 

[Valechan]

Crazy idea? Here Comes Tomorrow is alternate reality Earth 15104, it is not 616, therefore it is not cannon. The abilities of alternate reality doppelgangers are not the same as the abilities of 616 heroes. It is a simple matter. We cannot believe Jean 616 has the same powers as Jean 15104, especially since she NEVER used or even hinted said powers in the 616 reality. If we believe any and all powers of alternate realities doppelgangers then Storm can, among other things, access the Phoenix Force itself

 

[GL1]

Honestly, that's the kind of logic that holds up in court. Disproving the proof. It can be inferred that, unless the Phoenix 15104 had some reason to be different than 616 then their powers are the same, but it's not actually proven. Interesting case.

Regardless, here's my question: What is the best way to totally kill the Storm vs Phoenix beef?

 

[Mike059jig]

somebody should do a poll in the marvel section of Pheonix Vs Storm to see the eventually winner......I see a very one sided poll already

 

[javon]

Wow, I knew this thread would sink in

Let us examine one tiny little fact that has just come into view. From the interview that was posted on the very first post, it is said that we've "barely seen" what Ororo can do. Let's tie this into the "possible omega" status she received in BP 22. Why is Ororo a "possible Omega"? Simply, because she has yet to use her abilities to the fullest potential, she has yet to unleash her entire might upon the planet. Why doesn't she? Well, Uncanny 147 shows us why. If Ororo used her powers to the fullest there is no end what she could do. She has been using a mere fraction of them and look at all the wondrous things she has done, from the "solar wind riding" to the "starcore explosion", to many many more. In Uncanny 227, the Adversary says that Ororo's winds can shatter worlds and her lightning can turn it to dust.
In essence, Ororo isn't labeled as an Omega yet because she has yet to unleash her full might. Do notice that until mutants used their powers to their fullest expressions they were not catalogued as Omegas.

Like we've said before, Jean will try to enter Ororo's mind, and we all know what happens when people enter Storm's mind uninvited.

Shoot, I ended up getting 277. No problem though, I was looking for that anyways, plus it was a pretty good issue.

 

[Havok83]

Crazy idea? Here Comes Tomorrow is alternate reality Earth 15104, it is not 616, therefore it is not cannon. The abilities of alternate reality doppelgangers are not the same as the abilities of 616 heroes. It is a simple matter. We cannot believe Jean 616 has the same powers as Jean 15104, especially since she NEVER used or even hinted said powers in the 616 reality. If we believe any and all powers of alternate realities doppelgangers then Storm can, among other things, access the Phoenix Force itself

except for the fact that she was in the White Hot Room and that lies outside of time. Jean was seen there as White Phoenix of the Crown and her powers were at its fullest potential. She was able to telekinetically eradicate an entire timeline. That wasnt an alternate reality Jean. That was the real Jean Grey

 

[Valechan]

That was Jean 15104, she came from the 15104 reality, even if she is outside of time and space that is still Jean 15104, who is as real as Jean 616, she is her alternate reality counterpart, and very much real in HER reality.

 

[Harlekin]

That was Jean 15104, she came from the 15104 reality, even if she is outside of time and space that is still Jean 15104, who is as real as Jean 616, she is her alternate reality counterpart, and very much real in HER reality.

Which is impossible. I'll break it down for you.

- We've got the 616 reality. We've got Cyclops and Emma standing at Jean's grave.
- In the contuining reality, Cyclops leaves the school and **** hits the fan. This is still 616.
- Jean reappears 150 years later and returns to the White Hot Room. Again, still 616.
- Jean then uses her powers (or the Phoenix's power, however you wish to look at it, that's not what I'm here to debate) to travel back along the timeline and change reality. Again, 616 Jean tapping back into the 616 timeline.
- A new reality is created, in which Cycke doesn't leave the school. Standard time travel theory means that this is actually a divergent reality from 616, meaning that we've been following the exploits of the 15104 X-Men ever since the end of HoT. However, through the wisdom of the Marvel handbook, the HoT future is retroactively changed into the 15104.
- However, this does not mean that the Jean that altered reality was not the Jean from 616. After all, Jean from 616 went into the White Hot Room, becoming immune from the temporal change, and then returned to the "new" 616 reality.
- In other words, 15104 Jean=616 Jean.

I hope I'm still making sense here, but this is really all quite logic using the standard parallel Earth theory that Marvel also employs. Please digest it carefully and thoroughly before you try to rebut.

 

[Havok83]

Which is impossible. I'll break it down for you.

- We've got the 616 reality. We've got Cyclops and Emma standing at Jean's grave.
- In the contuining reality, Cyclops leaves the school and **** hits the fan. This is still 616.
- Jean reappears 150 years later and returns to the White Hot Room. Again, still 616.
- Jean then uses her powers (or the Phoenix's power, however you wish to look at it, that's not what I'm here to debate) to travel back along the timeline and change reality. Again, 616 Jean tapping back into the 616 timeline.
- A new reality is created, in which Cycke doesn't leave the school. Standard time travel theory means that this is actually a divergent reality from 616, meaning that we've been following the exploits of the 15104 X-Men ever since the end of HoT. However, through the wisdom of the Marvel handbook, the HoT future is retroactively changed into the 15104.
- However, this does not mean that the Jean that altered reality was not the Jean from 616. After all, Jean from 616 went into the White Hot Room, becoming immune from the temporal change, and then returned to the "new" 616 reality.
- In other words, 15104 Jean=616 Jean.

I hope I'm still making sense here, but this is really all quite logic using the standard parallel Earth theory that Marvel also employs. Please digest it carefully and thoroughly before you try to rebut.

Thank you for the post and thats exactly how it is. There was only one Jean in the stories. That Jean didnt come from 15104. She was the Jean from 616who entered the White Hot Room after "dying" at the end of Planet X. She existed simultaneously when Scott was talking to Emma at teh gravesite in 616 and 150 years in the future with HCT bc the WHR exists outside of time. When the HCT timeline was destroyed, she didnt cease to exist, bc again she was the 616 Jean in the WHR who remained there till we saw her in Endsong

 

[Valechan]

It makes no sense what you just said.

Scott and Emma stand on the grave of Jean, 150 years into the future Jean is "reborn" enters the White Hot Room and alters her past. Scott kisses Emma and stays in the mansion

Thing is, because Jean altered the past, because Jean "nudged" Scott to remain, her reality became 15104 and not 616, which means she is Jean 15104 and NOT Jean 616, if she were Jean 616 she would not have needed to alter any past, since, in 616 Scott remained with Emma. You're twisting the truth to fill your needs. Here Comes Tomorrow, those 150 years into the future IS Earth 15104, ergo, the Jean reborn in that reality is Jean 15104, ergo the Jean that enters the WHR and "nudges" 616-Scott is Jean 15104, NOT Jean 616.

 

[Harlekin]

It makes no sense what you just said.

It makes perfect sense.

Scott and Emma stand on the grave of Jean, 150 years into the future Jean is "reborn" enters the White Hot Room and alters her past. Scott kisses Emma and stays in the mansion.

Correct.

Thing is, because Jean altered the past, because Jean "nudged" Scott to remain, her reality became 15104 and not 616, which means she is Jean 15104 and NOT Jean 616, if she were Jean 616 she would not have needed to alter any past, since, in 616 Scott remained with Emma. You're twisting the truth to fill your needs. Here Comes Tomorrow, those 150 years into the future IS Earth 15104, ergo, the Jean reborn in that reality is Jean 15104, ergo the Jean that enters the WHR and "nudges" 616-Scott is Jean 15104, NOT Jean 616.

Except, you'll find that is impossible. I have bolded the parts where you basically prove me right. Now, read this carefully:
Jean changes the 616 future so that its original future, retroactively becomes 15104. However, 616 Jean does not now retroactively become 15104 Jean, because she exists in the WHR, outside of time and space.

Are you getting this? In 616, Scott didn't stay with Emma until Jean made him do so. You're twisting time travel theory to your own personal needs. Here Comes Tomorrow, those 150 years were originally 616 and were retroactively altered to become 15104. The Jean that entered the WHR though is the 616 one, because that is the person who entered the WHR, and by doing so, became immune to the temporal change. After doing so, she reintegrated herself into the new 616 reality.

 

[Valechan]

Thing is, whatver happened in those 150 yeras was never 616, it was always 15104, because of the simple reason that any and all futures are alternate, the future isn't written. Every single future we've seen in the comic books is an alternate reality, and 15104 is no excepcion.

 

[Harlekin]

Thing is, whatver happened in those 150 yeras was never 616, it was always 15104, because of the simple reason that any and all futures are alternate, the future isn't written. Every single future we've seen in the comic books is an alternate reality, and 15104 is no excepcion.

Sigh, do you even know a thing about time travel? The whole reason the future isn't written now is because Jean altered reality. The 15104 reality was not always 15104, it was originally 616. 15104 IS an exception, otherwise, the story of HtC doesn't hold up.

Then again, you yourself admitted this only three posts ago:

because Jean "nudged" Scott to remain, her reality became 15104 and not 616

It's not rocket science, sebita.

 

[Valechan]

Thing is, since she changed it, she also became 15104, she is Jean 15104 by her own actions.

And I'm still waiting to read in a comic that the WHR is outside time and space, because there is no mention to that in x-men 154

 

[Havok83]

Thing is, since she changed it, she also became 15104, she is Jean 15104 by her own actions.

And I'm still waiting to read in a comic that the WHR is outside time and space, because there is no mention to that in x-men 154

You say that the Jean in the WHR was Jean of 15104. Well when she eradicated that timeline, she and the other Phoenixes would have ceased to exist as well but that wasnt the case bc the WHR lies outside of time.

 

[Harlekin]

Thing is, since she changed it, she also became 15104, she is Jean 15104 by her own actions.

And I'm still waiting to read in a comic that the WHR is outside time and space, because there is no mention to that in x-men 154

Considering that it's the meeting place of all alternate Phoenixes and all that jibber-jabber, the logical conclusion is that it is outside of conventional time and space. Let's say that it's not though, for argument's sake: You're only making it worse. By giving 616 Jean the ability to retroactively make herself 15104 Jean (are you considering how stupid this sounds?) you are making her more powerful than originally thought.

Let's go along with your argument a little more though:
- 616 Jean alters reality so that the previous future of 616 becomes an alternate reality.
- In the process, she herself is altered to become 15104 Jean.
- Ergo, the 616 Jean retroactively becomes 15104 Jean.
So, in conclusion: 15104 Jean can alter reality, and 616 Jean became 15104 Jean. Ergo, 616 Jean can do the things 15104 Jean can, because she is 15104 Jean.

A=B
B can do C
So there is no other conclusion than: A can do C

 

[Valechan]

She can't eradicate a timeline. Timelines can ONLY be destroyed by using the Forever Cristal, which was not present at the time. REad Avengers Forever.

 

[Valechan]

Let's go along with your argument a little more though:
- 616 Jean alters reality so that the previous future of 616 becomes an alternate reality.
- In the process, she herself is altered to become 15104 Jean.
- Ergo, the 616 Jean retroactively becomes 15104 Jean.
So, in conclusion: 15104 Jean can alter reality, and 616 Jean became 15104 Jean. Ergo, 616 Jean can do the things 15104 Jean can, because she is 15104 Jean.

Tease answer : no she can't cause she's dead

Real answer: No, because she was never 616 Jean, she was always 15104 Jean.

 

[Harlekin]

Real answer: No, because she was never 616 Jean, she was always 15104 Jean.

And... STRIKE! You're out, get to the showers.

Thing is, since she changed it, she also became 15104, she is Jean 15104 by her own actions.

You've written yourself into a corner there Sebita. Pick either one of the two options, and remain consistent.

I'll go over it for you again though (using your own arguments):
- We've got a cool little reality dubbed 616.
- In the future of that reality, Jean returns to the WHR.
- That Jean (originating from the 616 timeline) alters it so those years are actually of the reality 15104.

The logical conclusions:
- In the case of the WHR not existing outside time, Jean's efforts are immediately negated, since there would be absolutely no reason to go back in time, otherwise you are stuck in a loop of continual Jean's creating new realities. That'd be pretty futile.
- In the case of the WHR existing outside time, Jean is unaffected by the temporal change, and is still 616 Jean.

Using your hypothesis:
- The WHR exists doesn't exist out of time, and Jean is retroactively changed into 15104 Jean. Since it was 616 Jean however that initiated the change into becoming 15104 Jean (A becomes B), and 15104 Jean is capable of altering reality (B can do C), 616 Jean can automatically alter reality as well (If A=B and B can do C, A must be able to do C).

So really, no matter how you look at it, you are wrong.

 

[Havok83]

She can't eradicate a timeline. Timelines can ONLY be destroyed by using the Forever Cristal, which was not present at the time. REad Avengers Forever.

then what exactly did she do to HCT?

 

[Valechan]

Let's use your so called logic. Jean 616 (a) becomes Jean 15104 (b) and (b) can do (c).

Thing is, this "b" had 150 years of incubating in a cocoon, and did things afterwards that she had never been able to do before. Ergo, current-day 616 Jean (a), cannot do C because she lacks those 150 years of incubating and growth of her powers.

 

[Valechan]

then what exactly did she do to HCT?

she turned it into 15104, she made sure it wasn't 616.

 

[Havok83]

she turned it into 15104, she made sure it wasn't 616.

except New X-men 154 pretty much said that she erased the HCT timeline. After emerging from the cocoon and hearing from Logan how things turned out and how bad they were, she realized it was all wrong. Thats when she entered the WHR and eradicated the timeline. She says "I had to amputate the whole future". With those words, HCT ceased to exist. It was gone and over bc she made it go away. This was BEFORE she influenced Scott's actions in the 616 past. Then a new future was born to replace the one that she erased.

 

[Valechan]

"I had to amputate the whole future".

Which is an ambiguous phrase that can easily be interpreted as "amputated from the 616 reality and moved it away". Realities cannot be erased, time travel doesn't change the past, unless you have the Forever Cristal, she did not have it, regardless of how much "power" she may have she cannot destroy an entire reality, not even Roma can do that with her powers, she has to use her "Cellestial Nullifier", which is unique. Since Jean did not have the FC, not access to the Cellestial Nullifier, she did not destroy that future, she merely turned it into Earth 15104 by altering the past. She "shifted" it out of sync with 616 first and then "nudged" Scott into Emma, creating the current 616, but 15104 is still there.

 

[Harlekin]

Let's use your so called logic. Jean 616 (a) becomes Jean 15104 (b) and (b) can do (c).

Thing is, this "b" had 150 years of incubating in a cocoon, and did things afterwards that she had never been able to do before. Ergo, current-day 616 Jean (a), cannot do C because she lacks those 150 years of incubating and growth of her powers.

Wrong again.

As clearly shown in Phoenix: Endsong, the Jean that just pulled the reality altering stunt reintegrated herself into the 616 reality (which is just even more proof of her not being affected by her own actions). She already has those 150 years of dormancy.