The Official Sub-Mariner Discussion Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, I thought you meant the Punisher comic. You know, I actually read through your whole argument with the dude without ever once reading his name. Weird.

 

[Anubis]

That really is a shame too. I pretty much read out of interest for the character first and if the writing turns out not to fit me too well, I decide to drop it. The only writers I'll follow blindly into a work are Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore.

I buy my comics by using a mixture of things. Creative Team, premise, artwork, then characters. Mostly the first two.

 

[Xofenroht]

I buy my comics by using a mixture of things. Creative Team, premise, artwork, then characters. Mostly the first two.

Yeah, there are some cases where I make myself choose. For instance, I'll only read "The Amazing Spider-Man", but offer Sensational or Friendly Neighborhood and I'm likely to turn it down.

What creative team would you guys have liked to see on Sub-Mariner?

 

[Artistsean]

OK, I don't know if this was brought up already but,
If Namor sided with the Anti Registration heroes then what does he do now that they lost, gave up?

 

[Xofenroht]

I'd suggest reading the comic-con stuff. That's pretty much what (I think) spurred this thread to begin.

 

[The Punisher]

But Brian Reed's Ms. Marvel isnt a top seller for a reason.

And what reason is that? The book is still a great read. Look at a book like Immortal Iron Fist. It has Brubaker on the title and it's still selling around the 50-60's. It's not doing that well. So what's your point?

Ha, sure. Man, Powerless sucked. Namor's future looks grim.

Have you read the issue yet?

I was explaining to our friend The Punisher how this title was all but ready to fail, with a crappy creative team and an already hard to sell character, that an A-List creative team or being tied to some event was the only way this book would sell. You just cemented my opinion with your thoughts on the crappy creative team.

So you're saying an A-list team is what's needed to get this book off the ground? Like I stated, Immortal Iron Fist has a pretty good team on I, with Brubaker as writer and Fraction co-writing. And the book isn't selling that well. 50-60's is pretty good sure, but I expected it to do better. A-list or not, anything's possible. This team on Sub-Mariner seems ok with me, and who knows how well it'll do. Again, you didn't read the issue and neither did I, so how fair is it to say that it'll be crappy? Just because of the creative team? Please...

 

[The Punisher]

New info on Sub-Mariner.

When readers last saw Namor, the Sub-Mariner, he was descending upon the Pro-Registration forces at the head of the Atlantean army in Civil War #7. Echoes of that series and recent occurrences in Wolverine will contribute to the devastating events that open the new Sub-Mariner: Revolution limited series, due this June.

Steering the ship will be co-writers Peter Johnson and Matt Chernis {Powerless) with artist Phil Briones, While "unofficially" announced right here in New Joe Fridays several weeks back, New York Comic Con served as its more "official" launching pad, and Newsarama had the opportunity to sit down with the wrtiting team to get a sense of their heading on this new title.

Newsarama: First of all fellas, can you give us the basics?

Chernis & Johnson: Sub-Mariner: Revolution will be a six-issue limited series with Phil Briones attached as the artist. Mike Turner is doing the cover to issue #1, with a variety of major artists filling out #2-6.

NRAMA: Powerless, your first Marvel project, was a little while back, so can you start by re-introducing yourself to readers with short bios?

Chernis & Johnson: Peter and I are comic book fanatics at heart who have worked as TV Execs for the better part of 15 years. We met and worked together for about seven years at FOX. I am currently the head of Drama and Comedy Development at the cable network FX, while Peter runs McG's Wonderland Production company. Over the years I developed shows including Nip/Tuck, Rescue Me, Dirt, & It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia while Peter in his years at FOX and Wonderland developed shows including 24, The O.C., House, & Supernatural.

A few years back we decided to take a crack a writing a comic and pitched the idea of Powerless to the guys at Marvel. This time around, we wanted to do a story inside the Marvel continuity and when we heard that they were looking for a new take on Namor, we jumped at the idea.

NRAMA: All right then– so how do you guys become attached to this project? We've spoken to Kevin Grevioux (writer of another new June launch, New Warriors), and we know Marvel approached him with a couple of basic elements for the relaunch of that series and gave him the freedom to build around that with this own concepts. What's your story? Did Marvel come to you with a Sub-Mariner idea? And if so, how much of the final concept was already in place? Or was it something you pitched to them?

Chernis: I had lunch with the editors from Marvel while I was in New York on business. Our day jobs make it tough to work on comics on any kind of steady schedule, but we had so much fun working with Marvel that we had been looking for another project to work on together. When they mentioned that Civil War was going to be the perfect launching point to re-examine Namor, it spawned a bunch of great ideas. The more Peter and I talked about it, the more we realized that Namor and Atlantis were at a potentially explosive moment in their history and that we had a take that could really shake things up. Peter and I only want to do stories where we feel like there is something deeper to explore than the average story, and with Namor we couldn't have asked for more.

NRAMA: Given the influence of Civil War on the Marvel Universe, and the fact Marvel has included the Sub-Mariner in a list of post-Civil War "Initiative" titles, it's a safe bet this series plays directly off it. Tell readers how.

Johnson & Chernis: In truth, we think that things have been simmering beneath the surface for a long time, but Civil War definitely put everything involving Namor and Atlantis under a microscope.

The death of Namorita, the fact that Namor installed sleeper cells on American soil, the fact that Namor and his Atlantean army played a key role in Civil War's final outcome, and the fact that they now have Nitro imprisoned in Atlantis, will all play into our series.

There are a lot of angry people on the surface that see Atlantis as a threat. At the same time, there is a lot of internal strife developing in Atlantis over some of Namor's choices; so it isn't merely an 'us versus them' situation. Most importantly, we decided early on that we didn't want to have to rely on Civil War to generate all the inciting incidents in our story. The events, alone, that take place in issue #1 of our series are, enough in and of themselves, massive enough to generate plenty of chaos.

NRAMA: We saw that Namor and Atlantean soldiers joined Captain America's secret Avengers in opposition of the pro-Registration forces. Now the actions of Cap and his crew were treasonous, and it's been revealed that, aside from Cap, the heroes have been granted and accepted pardons. But Namor is the ruler of a sovereign nation. His action in Civil War #7 is an act of war against the United States, isn't it?

Chernis & Johnson: That is something that we'll be exploring very early on in the series. What constitutes an act of war? Was this an attack on America, or was it yet another example of a super-powered conflict that seems to supersede traditional notions of war? I don't think Namor felt he was declaring war against the U.S., but that doesn't mean that many in the government didn't perceive it that way.

NRAMA: Obviously, the cover by Mike Turner itself raises some questions as to what this series/story is about? What can you tell readers about what is going on in that cover?

Chernis & Johnson: Not much. We'll say this much. This isn't a cover that over-promises on the events that take place inside. Someone in looking to inflict a heavy toll on the U.S. and you can bet Atlantis has something to do with it. Either that, or Howard the Duck is on another one of his rampages!!!

NRAMA: You mentioned her previously, but how much of this has to do with the death of his cousin at Stamford? What is happening to the human we assume he has the most respect for – Cap?

Chernis & Johnson: The death of Namorita has had an impact, but this story isn't about any direct effect on Namor. It may inform some of his opinions and certainly has led to Namor's current emotional state, but it’s not like his moment-to-moment actions are related to her death.

As far as Cap is concerned, I can't think of anyone living on the surface that Namor trusts more. They've fought together for over a half-century, and you can bet that wherever Cap finds himself during the course of the mini-series will color Namor's perception of the surface.

NRAMA: Give us your read on Namor? To say he has a varied past and has been portrayed differently in different situations would be an understatement. He's been a hero fighting alongside the Invaders in WW2 and at various times in the contemporary Marvel Universe. He was reintroduced to the modern Marvel age as an FF villain, always ready to flame tensions between Atlantis and the surface world. John Byrne even turned him into an industrialist/environmentalist for a time. Even more recently Bill Jemas turned him into a romantic lead as a teen. Who is Namor to you? Is he more Doctor Doom, Black Panther, Iron Man, or Captain America? Which is his more dominant side?

Chernis & Johnson: Like many of the great Marvel characters, Namor is constantly struggling against his basic nature. Peter Parker is a shy child that must break out of his shell in order to be the hero he feels he must be, given his powers. Matt Murdock is an intelligent and thoughtful lawyer who struggles against containing the rage and frustration he feels in his own life and within the world of Hell's Kitchen; Wolverine is constantly struggling with his animal nature. I could go on and on. It's what makes the Marvel Universe so great.

We think that Namor's essential struggle is one between the role of Ruler and the role of Warrior. Having an understanding of "the greater good" and acting to preserve it are two very different things. I think that is one of the reasons that we have seen Namor assume so many different roles.

I also think our view of him is colored by the fact that he is an outsider. It is easy to judge people's motivations based on your personal world view, but when they are from another place, with another set of principles, the idea of right & wrong, or hero & villain become much cloudier.

As far as which side of him is more dominant, we think that it is human and probably Atlantean nature to do the thing that comes easiest to you and it is definitely easier for Namor to be a warrior, but our goal in the series is to put Namor in a situation that makes it extremely difficult and dangerous to act on his warrior tendencies. That's not to say he won't act on them many times, only that when he does, it will have major consequences.

NRAMA: What is your take on the Sue Richards situation? In Civil War, Mark Millar complicated the whole issue of their long-standing, unrequited attraction. We're going to assume Dwayne McDuffie may pick up on that more in the monthly FF series. How about you? Is it something you get to explore in your series?

Johnson & Chernis: The Namor / Sue Richards situation will have a role but the stakes for Namor in this series are huge and there is a real ticking clock here. I think for the most part that won't allow Namor to further explore his feelings for Sue, but that doesn't mean that they won't cross paths along the way.

NRAMA: Sometime early last year, Joe Quesada told us one of the things he wanted to see whether Marvel tried again with this character was a new, more modern take on Atlantis. Again, judging by the cover by Turner, are we wrong to under the impression Atlantis is looking a little more modern… and dare we say, urban?

Johnson & Chernis: We like to think of Atlantis much like many writers and artist interpret Gotham City in the DC Universe. We think it can take on a life of its own based on how the creators view the world. We like the idea of an Atlantis that is both ancient and incredibly modern at the same time.

NRAMA: How much – if at all – will your take on Atlantis play on role in this series? Be it Aquaman over at DC or tries at Namor at Marvel, no one has really successfully give scale and weight to the fact that these undersea monarchs rule over three-quarters of the planet. Is that an issue on your radar?

Johnson & Chernis: We couldn't agree more. We have big plans for Atlantis, so check back with us after reading the first issue.

I also think that it is too simplistic to say that Atlantis rules the sea just like it is too simplistic to say that we rule the land. The ocean houses Atlantis, but that doesn't mean they control it. I think that Namor may come face-to-face with that fact in the series. I do think it is important to note that we have no interest in doing any story that deals with the "ecological" impact of the battle between land and sea. I think we've all seen it before and most of the time I think it keeps us from really digging into Namor and the Atlanteans as characters. We like to think that thousands of years ago, before Atlantis took residence under the sea, they were Us. What that means exactly, and if there is any remnant of humanity in Atlantis is something worth exploring.

NRAMA: Any supporting players you want to tell readers about? Who besides Namor plays important roles in this series?

Johnson and Chernis: OK, we'll throw out a few stream of conscious names and phrases: Namor, Sleeper Cell, Tony Stark, Illuminati, Nitro, Xavier, Wolverine, and of course....Howard the Duck!

Look for Sub-Mariner: Revolution this June.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102804

 

[Darthphere]

So you're saying an A-list team is what's needed to get this book off the ground? Like I stated, Immortal Iron Fist has a pretty good team on I, with Brubaker as writer and Fraction co-writing. And the book isn't selling that well. 50-60's is pretty good sure, but I expected it to do better. A-list or not, anything's possible. This team on Sub-Mariner seems ok with me, and who knows how well it'll do. Again, you didn't read the issue and neither did I, so how fair is it to say that it'll be crappy? Just because of the creative team? Please...

Its really that easy. Would you read it if CHuck Austen was writing it? Of course not, and the Iron Fist example is again relevant due to the fact that it involves a hard to sell character, and the only reason it is selling in the top 60, rather than out of the top 100 is because Brubaker is on it. Namor doesnt have the name power, or the event tie-in power of a PWJ or any other CW tie-in. Can it sell? Maybe. But why not give it the A-List treatment right off the bat?

 

[Memphis Slim]

I like Namor. But there are some characters that are only good along side others. Aquaman, Jonn Jonzz, Vision ......

Namor is another. He's never been able to keep his own title going. I hope it works this time.

 

[Darthphere]

I like Namor. But there are some characters that are only good along side others. Aquaman, Jonn Jonzz, Vision ......

Namor is another. He's never been able to keep his own title going. I hope it works this time.

Thats why its imperative to give it some A-List sizzle.

 

[The Punisher]

Its really that easy. Would you read it if CHuck Austen was writing it? Of course not, and the Iron Fist example is again relevant due to the fact that it involves a hard to sell character, and the only reason it is selling in the top 60, rather than out of the top 100 is because Brubaker is on it. Namor doesnt have the name power, or the event tie-in power of a PWJ or any other CW tie-in. Can it sell? Maybe. But why not give it the A-List treatment right off the bat?

How would you know that I wouldn't read it because of Austen? i don't base off books I want to read by who's writing them, I decide if I want to read them if the stories are interesting. You stated Reed's Ms. Marvel wasn't selling well for a reason, what reason was that? That he wasn't exactly an A-list writer or something else? The book is selling exactly where Immortal Iron Fist is. Sub-Mariner has a team, and they're already talking about it at the Con and an artist was named. I personally think it can sell. It will have to do with a little bit of the events of Civil War and what exaclt will Namor do. You don't need an A-list team to make it a hit, whatver is done with the book and whatever the team does, will be it's own judge. I personally think the book has potential as a mini.

 

[The Punisher]

I like Namor. But there are some characters that are only good along side others. Aquaman, Jonn Jonzz, Vision ......

Namor is another. He's never been able to keep his own title going. I hope it works this time.

It's a mini.

 

[Darthphere]

How would you know that I wouldn't read it because of Austen? i don't base off books I want to read by who's writing them, I decide if I want to read them if the stories are interesting. You stated Reed's Ms. Marvel wasn't selling well for a reason, what reason was that? That he wasn't exactly an A-list writer or something else? The book is selling exactly where Immortal Iron Fist is. Sub-Mariner has a team, and they're already talking about it at the Con and an artist was named. I personally think it can sell. It will have to do with a little bit of the events of Civil War and what exaclt will Namor do. You don't need an A-list team to make it a hit, whatver is done with the book and whatever the team does, will be it's own judge. I personally think the book has potential as a mini.

Reed's Ms. Marvel doesnt sell high on the charts because its a character with a limited interest with a creative team lacking wide recognition.

What exactly is it that you are not understanding? I mean, I'll break down it further if need be.

1. Namor doesn't sell. This is a fact. His solo books are really hard to get off the ground. He's a popular character in a sense but his books have never sold well.

2. The creative team has little to no mainstream comic book recognition. Again, they aren't big names, and whether you choose to believe it or not, its pretty much down to a fact Creative teams sell books.

If you don't understand my point by now, you're either stubborn or stupid.

 

[The Punisher]

Reed's Ms. Marvel doesnt sell high on the charts because its a character with a limited interest with a creative team lacking wide recognition.

What exactly is it that you are not understanding? I mean, I'll break down it further if need be.

1. Namor doesn't sell. This is a fact. His solo books are really hard to get off the ground. He's a popular character in a sense but his books have never sold well.

2. The creative team has little to no mainstream comic book recognition. Again, they aren't big names, and whether you choose to believe it or not, its pretty much down to a fact Creative teams sell books.

If you don't understand my point by now, you're either stubborn or stupid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because I somehow don't know what you're saying I'm stubborn or stupid. Why say something that's not even needed? I know what you're saying. I'm saying the team on this book doesn't have to be A-List to sell it. Sure Namor doesn't have that much luck with selling when it comes to his own titles, so I guess that's why he's getting a mini.....But it still doesn't change the fact that it could sell well. Take a mini like Spider-Man: Reign. Kaare Andrews is writer and artist on the book. Not exactly A-list, but does well enough to make the book a hit. That's MY point. You don't need A-list writers or artists to make it a hit. Your logic about that is irrelevent. Look at Dan Slott on She-Hulk, that book is selling in the 70's now. Even Brian K. Vaughn on Dr. Strange: The Oath, and that's not selling well...

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because I somehow don't know what you're saying I'm stubborn or stupid. Why say something that's not even needed? I know what you're saying. I'm saying the team on this book doesn't have to be A-List to sell it. Sure Namor doesn't have that much luck with selling when it comes to his own titles, so I guess that's why he's getting a mini.....But it still doesn't change the fact that it could sell well. Take a mini like Spider-Man: Reign. Kaare Andrews is writer and artist on the book. Not exactly A-list, but does well enough to make the book a hit. That's MY point. You don't need A-list writers or artists to make it a hit. Your logic about that is irrelevent. Look at Dan Slott on She-Hulk, that book is selling in the 70's now. Even Brian K. Vaughn on Dr. Strange: The Oath, and that's not selling well...

Your example is stupid, you know why? He's writing ****ing Spider-Man! SPIDER-MAN. I mean, I cant believe you just used that as an example.

And your other two examples are pretty much making my point. She-Hulk doesnt sell because its a book with limited interest and Dan Slott unfortunately isn't A-List, yet. Vaughan is A-list but Dr. Strange is in the same boat as Namor, a tough sell, no matter the creative team, its lucky its selling so well. To further my example, look at all the hype Whedon is getting on Runaways, expect a huge sales boost for his run.

 

[The Punisher]

Your example is stupid, you know why? He's writing ****ing Spider-Man! SPIDER-MAN. I mean, I cant believe you just used that as an example.

Yeah, but it's not a well known team. That's my point.

And your other two examples are pretty much making my point. She-Hulk doesnt sell because its a book with limited interest and Dan Slott unfortunately isn't A-List, yet. Vaughan is A-list but Dr. Strange is in the same boat as Namor, a tough sell, no matter the creative team, its lucky its selling so well. To further my example, look at all the hype Whedon is getting on Runaways, expect a huge sales boost for his run.

Slott not A-list? The guy is writing on a JLA title, and soon on the Initiative. Ok fine, maybe not A-list but working his way there. But for Namore, it'd have to do with the Initiative. So I think that's going to help it as well. I'd like to see where Runaway's goes. I certainly don't see that much hype for it...

I find it odd that you and I always get into these arguments.

 

[Darthphere]

I don't. Congrats, you're the new Supermarvelman.

 

[The Punisher]

Dude, that was low. I guess you and I have different views on things, that's all.

 

[Darthphere]

So did Supermarvelman and I.

 

[The Punisher]

Good to know.

 

[Silvermoth]

This looks good, I'm looking forward to it. They just need to work on getting us to connect with Namor and maybe reinventing him for the modern era sort of like Dr Strange:Blood Oath is like. But yeah, the art looks great and the writing should hopefully be up to scratch

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Anybody else really hoping that, whatever else they do with Namor, they officially switch his costume to the black one in this series?

Seriously, unless the Atlanteans as a whole are retconned to be a race of exhibitionists, I will never understand Namor's scaly green underwear look.

 

[Red]

Isn't that Namors current costume?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's a costume he's used on and off since the '70s.

 

[Anubis]

His current one looks a little different with the huge pimp colar.