The Official Superman Score & Soundtrack Thread - Part 1

[El Payaso]

Did some nods -- so you're not saying no.

Of course I'm not saying no. I'm saying what I'm saying. It has happened two times: once in a short-lived cartoon series and then in Smallville, a TV series that messed the whole Superman myth up so very much it's not even funny.

And as I said, don't completely copy the score, but give reference to it? Why not?

The actual question is "why?"

Because there's as much need for that as Nolan had to include a reference to Elfman's theme. And of course you know Zimmer was many times asked by people to make a more Elfman-esque score, he said so himself.

Elfman's theme is to date enormously more popular than the new Batman theme. But artistic decisions shouldn't be made over popularity.

Smallville wasn't small either, it's been the Superman iteration in the main stream for TEN years.

Where Lex died before Superman was born, where Lois knew about Clark's powers before Superman was born. Where they changed everything and then they kept the Donner's FoS in a hideous potpourri. If anything, Smallville is an example of why they shouldn't do it.

Hell, it went on to inspire, if I'm not mistaken, one or two of the comics this film is inspired by. It made a impact in comic lore, that says something - plus it's rare for a series to last that long, regardless of your feelings about it - everyone can see how big a feat that is.

The series can last as much as it wants to.

Again, popularity contests or which series lasts longer are no valid reasons to make artistic decisions. Unless you're more worried about giving the fans some winks here and there so they love you no matter what. I say, give the fans a good movie instead. If your movie is not Donner's franchise, don't use Donner franchise's elements.

Anything goes? What?

Yes. Hey, let's change everything in Superman's story. But hey, let's keep the crystal-like FoS, people remembers it. And hey, let's put the Williams theme at the end, people remembers it.

Anything goes.

How would it not fit?

It's not Donner's franchise. The new movie is something else entirely different in tone.

How is the theme not serious? Do you realize how differently a couple notes can be played? Those notes can be altered and changed around to fit any given tone that's how music works. It's so iconic because of how simple it is - the notes are basically just "saying" Superman. How is that silly? It's smart.

I remember the Fleischer cartoons' theme also had a three-note leit motiv. Hey, that's smart, let's put it the new theme.

I don't care if you think it's cheap. Some fans don't think it is. Different strokes, different folks. Nuff said.

I don't care if some fans think it is cool. This is not Donner's franchise and that's a fact. This movie was already said to be distancing itself from that.

Batman TAS is a lot different from a show that's been on primetime cable for 10 years. And the Superman a new generation grew up with.

Of course it is very different: BTAS was respectful of the character and its story.

And please don't tell me that because of the Smallville popularity and 10 years we should include "Somebody Save Me" in the new movie. You know, some people grew up with that theme.

Popularity does come into play. People hear it and instantly know it's Superman. Worldwide. That makes it iconic and a staple.

Believe me, people already know it's a movie about Superman.

Batman's theme isn't that iconic. This is coming from a Batman guy. Among fans, yes. Among world populace, good - yes, known - not even. It's far too complicated to pick up on easily. But this also has to do with how much Superman has effected pop culture overall.

Batman's theme is iconic enough to be recognized over any other theme along with the 1960's theme. So Nolan could have thought of keeping it just to please fans because popularity is everything. But he knew that it could ruin part of the impact of having a fresh new take by linking it to a previous finished franchise, so he got rid of it. This time the same will happen.

Because it would be just for the sake of it. To me it's like making Spider-Man's hands silver. Or possibly deleting the Daily Bugle. Same problems some fans are calling into play on Spider-Man, I'm calling into play here if they don't include it. It's not a new fan reaction.

So before 1977, everything Superman had him with silver hands.

You know what would be like deleting or significantly altering Superman's basic elements? Smallville.

Different strokes, different folks as said earlier. You don't want it. I do. You're not right. I'm not right.

This doesn't come down to fact or opinion - that would be silly.

And if we're both rational we can agree to that.

If we're both rational we will see that the Williams theme is not going to be used. I'm just telling you why.

 

[Ultimatehero]

'Birth Right' & 'Secret Origins' have both been stated to influence 'Man of Steel,' both comics have shown themselves to be inspired by Smallville. You don't like it, tough luck. Your opinion is just that - opinion, so is mine.

I'm confused about what you're trying to say - Batman's theme is the most iconic among Batman? Because no one would argue over that. But, Batman's theme is more recognizable than Superman, Star Wars, James Bond and Indiana Jones? That'd be a reach.

Are you really this egotistical to believe your opinion is fact?

Because until the score is released, there are no facts.

 

[blueboy2010]

Of course I'm not saying no. I'm saying what I'm saying. It has happened two times: once in a short-lived cartoon series and then in Smallville, a TV series that messed the whole Superman myth up so very much it's not even funny.



The actual question is "why?"

Because there's as much need for that as Nolan had to include a reference to Elfman's theme. And of course you know Zimmer was many times asked by people to make a more Elfman-esque score, he said so himself.

Elfman's theme is to date enormously more popular than the new Batman theme. But artistic decisions shouldn't be made over popularity.



Where Lex died before Superman was born, where Lois knew about Clark's powers before Superman was born. Where they changed everything and then they kept the Donner's FoS in a hideous potpourri. If anything, Smallville is an example of why they shouldn't do it.



The series can last as much as it wants to.

Again, popularity contests or which series lasts longer are no valid reasons to make artistic decisions. Unless you're more worried about giving the fans some winks here and there so they love you no matter what. I say, give the fans a good movie instead. If your movie is not Donner's franchise, don't use Donner franchise's elements.



Yes. Hey, let's change everything in Superman's story. But hey, let's keep the crystal-like FoS, people remembers it. And hey, let's put the Williams theme at the end, people remembers it.

Anything goes.



It's not Donner's franchise. The new movie is something else entirely different in tone.



I remember the Fleischer cartoons' theme also had a three-note leit motiv. Hey, that's smart, let's put it the new theme.



I don't care if some fans think it is cool. This is not Donner's franchise and that's a fact. This movie was already said to be distancing itself from that.



Of course it is very different: BTAS was respectful of the character and its story.

And please don't tell me that because of the Smallville popularity and 10 years we should include "Somebody Save Me" in the new movie. You know, some people grew up with that theme.



Believe me, people already know it's a movie about Superman.



Batman's theme is iconic enough to be recognized over any other theme along with the 1960's theme. So Nolan could have thought of keeping it just to please fans because popularity is everything. But he knew that it could ruin part of the impact of having a fresh new take by linking it to a previous finished franchise, so he got rid of it. This time the same will happen.



So before 1977, everything Superman had him with silver hands.

You know what would be like deleting or significantly altering Superman's basic elements? Smallville.



If we're both rational we will see that the Williams theme is not going to be used. I'm just telling you why.

Just gotta say, I agree with your trashing of Smallville. That show was a joke and I can't believe there are so many geeks (yes of couse I class myself as a geek also) on the internet who support it. If I ever see another comment about Tom f*****g Welling below a Man of Steel story I think I'll throw my laptop out the window. Welling et al have nothing to do with this film, thank god.
On the score, I absolutely love Williams' Superman music, along with a lot of his other work. He is a genius.
However, I don't believe the theme will appear in this new movie. Funny how IMDB have Williams listed on the 'crew' section of the MOS page though.

 

[Ultimatehero]

That show was a joke and I can't believe there are so many geeks (yes of couse I class myself as a geek also) on the internet who support it.

Personally a lot of it came from how human they made Clark Kent. Many of his trials and tribulations I went through myself at some point while growing up. Albeit without super villains. (I'm similarly adopted.) It was the one Superman I could really relate to. Plus, it is already connected to 'Man Of Steel' in that it influenced some of the comics this film is based upon.

 

[El Payaso]

'Birth Right' & 'Secret Origins' have both been stated to influence 'Man of Steel,' both comics have shown themselves to be inspired by Smallville. You don't like it, tough luck. Your opinion is just that - opinion, so is mine.

Smallville changing radically core aspects of the chartacter is beyond opinion. Haven't read Secret Origins but Birth Right didn't screw up Superman like Smallville did, so I'm okay if it took certain aspects of the series. Now, what really ruined part of BR was that nonsense of Clark and Lex being friends since forever and Lex being unexplicably unable to tell who's Superman or that that journalist called Clark kent is the same he knew as a child.

I'm confused about what you're trying to say - Batman's theme is the most iconic among Batman? Because no one would argue over that. But, Batman's theme is more recognizable than Superman, Star Wars, James Bond and Indiana Jones? That'd be a reach.

Does it need to be more recognizable than those for people to believe it would be more recognizable than Zimmer-Howard's one? Because it ceretainly is. And, according to your thoughts, that should be enough to include it in the new movies.

Are you really this egotistical to believe your opinion is fact?

Because until the score is released, there are no facts.

There is one fact: the makers of the movie stated this movie is in no way related to previous movies.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Actually Lex got the classic mind wipe. In some comics Clark remembers Lex, but Lex doesn't remember him. I didn't say it didn't change some things. I said it's your opinion that the show isn't good, not that they didn't change things. My opinion is it's good.

There's a difference between whether the tune is known world wide and instantly connected with it or if it's just known to fans of that movie. Just some things are pop culture, those tunes I listed are in pop culture.

That's not fact enough to say whether or not the anthem will be in the film. The makers of Casino Royal said the exact same thing. And it was a reboot. They even dispersed of Q. But they kept the song. So, no - music is not laid out in stone. It is just opinion at this point.

 

[El Payaso]

Actually Lex got the classic mind wipe. In some comics Clark remembers Lex, but Lex doesn't remember him. I didn't say it didn't change some things. I said it's your opinion that the show isn't good, not that they didn't change things. My opinion is it's good.

Good or not, it changed radically so many important things I couldn't take it as some representative example of how traditions should be kept. That's why I don't give any importance to the show using the Williams' theme in the last episode.

There's a difference between whether the tune is known world wide and instantly connected with it or if it's just known to fans of that movie. Just some things are pop culture, those tunes I listed are in pop culture.

What tunes do you mean? Williams' and Elfman's? Because if you mean the Smallville's song, then please include it in the movie and you'll have a major problem.

That's not fact enough to say whether or not the anthem will be in the film. The makers of Casino Royal said the exact same thing. And it was a reboot. They even dispersed of Q. But they kept the song. So, no - music is not laid out in stone. It is just opinion at this point.

Mine was prediction based on first hand information more than just opinion. If they say the new movie is not connected with any previous franchise and they end up using the Williams' theme, then they were lying.

 

[Elevator Man]

Hopefully on Snyder's and Nolan's next MOS interview. The interviewer(s) will ask 'em if they'll use the Williams march or not. So this new theme/old theme war could come to a halt. Thyey still haven't given a definitive answer on that.

 

[El Payaso]

Hopefully on Snyder's and Nolan's next MOS interview. The interviewer(s) will ask 'em if they'll use the Williams march or not. So this new theme/old theme war could come to a halt. Thyey still haven't given a definitive answer on that.

They have nevertheless given their criterion about the movie.


Now, whatever the answer is, this will be far from a halt. We all know Superman is not wearing trunks. That's for sure. I don't see people not talking about trunks though.

 

[Ultimatehero]

I can respect view on 'Smallville,' but to me still the theme was used and the series is undeniably successful due to how rare ten years actually is.

The Superman march. A song a band plays is leagues different than a couple chords that can be played and changed up on any instrument to fit any given sort of mood or tone. A composer can make hit edgy given the right instruments, it's just three notes basically.

Same criterion as James Bond, people doubted they would even have the gun sight scene with theme -- even while watching it -- and it appeared in the very end.

 

[Elevator Man]

They have nevertheless given their criterion about the movie.


Now, whatever the answer is, this will be far from a halt. We all know Superman is not wearing trunks. That's for sure. I don't see people not talking about trunks though.

I know it won't come to a halt. I merely meant a temporary halt. I know if they decide to use the Williams theme. The non-supporters of the theme will go into a hissy fit. Same goes for those that support the Williams theme will go into a hissy fit if they don't use it. So...

 

[romeogbs19]

Well, while I agree that Williams probably won't score this film, I do think Snyder and Nolan should keep the original march; it's iconic at this point, much more than Elfman's Batman theme.

There is nothing wrong with paying homage to what came before. Having the march or even a variation of it doesn't cheapen or lessen this reboot. If anything, it tells viewers that the film's creators understand what came before and pay respect to it. Reeve played a huge role in making Superman the popular and beloved character we still get excited about today. What's wrong with remembering him and the Donner-verse through some of the music?

I don't think anyone watching it is suddenly going to be like, hey, is this a sequel to the Reeve film?

I view Williams' march more along the lines of the Bond theme; it's inherently tied to the character now and a film without it or any reference to it would make the film feel like it's missing something.

That's just me. I love that theme. It was the only great moment in Returns (sadly) -- well, that and that airplane sequence.

 

[DKDetective]

I can respect view on 'Smallville,' but to me still the theme was used and the series is undeniably successful due to how rare ten years actually is.

The Superman march. A song a band plays is leagues different than a couple chords that can be played and changed up on any instrument to fit any given sort of mood or tone. A composer can make hit edgy given the right instruments, it's just three notes basically.

Same criterion as James Bond, people doubted they would even have the gun sight scene with theme -- even while watching it -- and it appeared in the very end.

James Bond is a totally different franchise. It's unique in that it has had different actors and loose continuity while still maintaining certain conventions like Q, the theme music, and the gun barrel scene. Casino Royale is a totally different style of reboot. It's not a true reboot. The Craig films are as much a part of the existing series as the previous films. Man of Steel is meant to be a new series.

There is no way this film will use the Williams march. It's the past and too strongly associated with a different incarnation of the character. The use of the Bond theme in Casino Royale was about demonstrating that Craig Bond was becoming the experienced Bond we all know and love. It was used to show CONNECTION with the rest of the franchise. That is why the Williams march is used in Smallville - connection. This is a new Superman and he needs a new theme.

Also, Smallville is far from this generation's Superman. I would hardly call a Friday night series on the WB/CW popular or culturally relevant. In the beginning, it was popular, but it has nowhere near the popularity of things like Reeve Superman films or even BTAS. Most of the people who watched Smallville came to hate it by the end. (both real life and the Smallville forum here support that assertion)

 

[Ultimatehero]

I view Williams' march more along the lines of the Bond theme; it's inherently tied to the character now and a film without it or any reference to it would make the film feel like it's missing something.

Exactly.

 

[El Payaso]

I can respect view on 'Smallville,' but to me still the theme was used and the series is undeniably successful due to how rare ten years actually is.

So what's the reasoning. The theme was used because the show was successful? Lois & Clark and STAS didn't use it and that's why they got cancelled?

The Superman march. A song a band plays is leagues different than a couple chords that can be played and changed up on any instrument to fit any given sort of mood or tone. A composer can make hit edgy given the right instruments, it's just three notes basically.

So now the selection criteria is that it could be adapted easily. I bet the Smallville theme's leit motiv could be adapted too if they wanted.

Same criterion as James Bond, people doubted they would even have the gun sight scene with theme -- even while watching it -- and it appeared in the very end.

James Bond: the new parameter on how to do things with Superman.

I know it won't come to a halt. I merely meant a temporary halt. I know if they decide to use the Williams theme. The non-supporters of the theme will go into a hissy fit. Same goes for those that support the Williams theme will go into a hissy fit if they don't use it. So...

So you see, it's going to be far removed from a halt. If anything it will be the opposite.

Well, while I agree that Williams probably won't score this film, I do think Snyder and Nolan should keep the original march; it's iconic at this point, much more than Elfman's Batman theme.

So you think Nolan left Elfman's bat-theme out of his movies because "it wasn't as iconic as Superman's"?

There is nothing wrong with paying homage to what came before. Having the march or even a variation of it doesn't cheapen or lessen this reboot. If anything, it tells viewers that the film's creators understand what came before and pay respect to it. Reeve played a huge role in making Superman the popular and beloved character we still get excited about today. What's wrong with remembering him and the Donner-verse through some of the music?

Nothing wrong. In fact you can purchase the dvd's and remember the old days. The movies were great.

What's wrong is to give the new take the same old vibe, and with mjusic you get that.

Nolan paid homage to the 1966 Batman TV series using the clown mask the Cesar Romero's Joker used in his first episode. Thank God he didn't use the Neal Hefti theme.

I don't think anyone watching it is suddenly going to be like, hey, is this a sequel to the Reeve film?

Most probably. It happened with Batman begins. People thought it was Batman 89's prequel. And people thought The Incredible Hulk was a sequel to Ang Lee's Hulk.

I view Williams' march more along the lines of the Bond theme; it's inherently tied to the character now and a film without it or any reference to it would make the film feel like it's missing something.

Different from Bond, Superman has a number of themes created for the character, not just one. The Williams theme is associated with a specific franchise which the theme was composed for.

 

[Budspencer]

probably been discussed and if so point me to the thread, but if not i was wondering how many people want to keep the original john williams score for the movie?

cheers

 

[Slugster]

Not!

 

[Ruthmarks]

John's score was perfect and is pretty much associated with the character at this point. Most of the other greats are either dead (Goldsmith, Herrmann, etc) or retired.

Unfortunately, my guess is we'll be getting forgettable white noise from the likes of Tyler Bates or some other "composer" (i.e. Hans Zimmer disciple without any discernible style, sound, or talent of his own) for "Man of Steel." But people have convinced themselves to like that sort of thing, so...

 

[NADALWON]

Here is my take: If they John Williams score, I think it should be used throughout the film at all the key moments, not just as a tribute at the end or start. Use it just as much as it was used during the Donner/Lester films. All or nothing, no in between.

 

[Lily Adler]

We already have a thread for this:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=347510

 

[NADALWON]

We already have a thread for this:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=347510

Thanks that thread looks awesome. Poll in it too and a lot of pages.

 

[Showtime]

Threads can be pretty exciting sometimes.

 

[El Payaso]

John's score was perfect and is pretty much associated with the character at this point.

Just like Donner, Reeve, etc. But life goes on.

Most of the other greats are either dead (Goldsmith, Herrmann, etc) or retired.

Yet I suspect not every good composer in the world is extinct.

Unfortunately, my guess is we'll be getting forgettable white noise from the likes of Tyler Bates or some other "composer" (i.e. Hans Zimmer disciple without any discernible style, sound, or talent of his own) for "Man of Steel." But people have convinced themselves to like that sort of thing, so...

Maybe one of them will make music that fits the new take on Superman, instead of rehashing old stuff because it's popular.

Here is my take: If they John Williams score, I think it should be used throughout the film at all the key moments, not just as a tribute at the end or start. Use it just as much as it was used during the Donner/Lester films. All or nothing, no in between.

Sure, it shoudn't be taken as a mere tribute but as much of a sequel as possible. Perfect for a reboot.

 

[Ruthmarks]

Just like Donner, Reeve, etc. But life goes on.

All right, let me put it to you this way. There are a couple of themes in screen history which have become synonymous with a particular hero -- John Barry and Monty Norman's theme for James Bond, Williams' theme for Indiana Jones, and Superman.

Period.

These themes have stood not just for years, but for decades and even generations.

I also didn't say that nobody else would get the job for "The Man of Steel" (Zack Snyder hinted he'll be bringing on a new composer). Rather, I stipulated that the score won't become as associated with the character as what John Williams wrote during the prime period of his career -- and that it will most likely be forgettable white noise, since that's pretty much what gets composed for big summer tent-pole movies these days.

Yet I suspect not every good composer in the world is extinct.

Maybe not completely extinct, but most of the great ones who actually knew how to write -- oh, I don't know -- a theme that anyone can remember (and which Superman dearly needs)?

Yeah, close to it.

Alan Silvestri is solid. So is Elliot Goldenthal. But neither is anywhere close to Williams' league.

As for Hans Zimmer, King of the Modern "Synthestra" Film Score -- he was asked about writing the music for "Man of Steel" after rumors surfaced that he'd been tapped for the job. He laughed it off and said that it wasn't going to happen. He had no interest in trying to write something that would match up to -- or outdo -- what Williams composed. He also added, with a chuckle, "Just so you know, I have no interest in rewriting Beethoven's 9th either."

Take that however you want.

Maybe one of them will make music that fits the new take on Superman, instead of rehashing old stuff because it's popular.

Maybe we'll wake up tomorrow and the sky will be a pink with purple spots.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Is this really still going on?!?

Seriously, they aren't using the williams theme. Get over it guys.