The Official Superman Score & Soundtrack Thread - Part 1

[El Payaso]

All right, let me put it to you this way. There are a couple of themes in screen history which have become synonymous with a particular hero -- John Barry and Monty Norman's theme for James Bond, Williams' theme for Indiana Jones, and Superman.

Period.

.....................So?

Christopher Reeve is not synonimous of Superman. To the world he IS Superman. And yet they have another actor for a different take on the character.

These themes have stood not just for years, but for decades and even generations.

Same as Reeve's performance.

I also didn't say that nobody else would get the job for "The Man of Steel" (Zack Snyder hinted he'll be bringing on a new composer). Rather, I stipulated that the score won't become as associated with the character as what John Williams wrote during the prime period of his career -- and that it will most likely be forgettable white noise, since that's pretty much what gets composed for big summer tent-pole movies these days.

You simply don't know if the new theme will be or won't be more or less associated with the character. Yoiu just assume so.

That said, it does not need to be more associated to the character than Williams' theme or the Fleischer caretoons' theme or whatever theme you could think of. It just need to fit the new approach. Period.

Maybe not completely extinct, but most of the great ones who actually knew how to write -- oh, I don't know -- a theme that anyone can remember (and which Superman dearly needs)?

Yeah, close to it.

Alan Silvestri is solid. So is Elliot Goldenthal. But neither is anywhere close to Williams' league.

So they better stop making more movies. Good composers were born in a limited number and they are simply next to complete extiction. Werll, maybe they can just take all of Williams' compositions and start re-using them for every movie they could ever make in the future. They all need Williams' league-good scores apparently.

As for Hans Zimmer, King of the Modern "Synthestra" Film Score -- he was asked about writing the music for "Man of Steel" after rumors surfaced that he'd been tapped for the job. He laughed it off and said that it wasn't going to happen. He had no interest in trying to write something that would match up to -- or outdo -- what Williams composed. He also added, with a chuckle, "Just so you know, I have no interest in rewriting Beethoven's 9th either."

Take that however you want.

Ok, I will. I seem to remember Zimmer was never actually approached.

Now he was either spitting sour grapes - "Yeah, they didn't offer me the job but hah, I didn't want it. It's impossible to do it and I pity the fool who accepts it" - or he was actually admiting he wasn't good enough. Many people thought so about him anyways. He said himself that people kept asking him for a more Elfman-esque bat-score. That must have annoyed him enough so not to try to score a character that has already a popular score.

Maybe we'll wake up tomorrow and the sky will be a pink with purple spots.

No. That won't happen. But I'll tel you what actually will: we'll have a new score for Superman.

 

[Naite22]

To put on my final thoughts on the whole "will they incorporate the original Superman theme?" thing. I guess I'd say that I WISH they would throw it in there. But I can understand if they don't, being this is a complete reboot, for the first time ever... But I'd still cry tears if they mixed it in.

 

[sherief83]

Hey guys,
This is my very first post and I've been lurking around the forms for years. but decided to do something about this very thread since i'm a composer and huge fan of william's theme. I always wanted to do a modern take on superman with John William's main march. like an evolution of it. i tried a couple of times and failed but yesterday I was very pleased with this one...so I signed up to share it. Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj346EzQLXg

Personally what I really want to see is someone new that does this everything, evolution of john William's theme. its just too iconic to ignore and it's harmony fits the character perfect.

 

[El Payaso]

Hey guys,
This is my very first post and I've been lurking around the forms for years. but decided to do something about this very thread since i'm a composer and huge fan of william's theme. I always wanted to do a modern take on superman with John William's main march. like an evolution of it. i tried a couple of times and failed but yesterday I was very pleased with this one...so I signed up to share it. Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj346EzQLXg

Personally what I really want to see is someone new that does this everything, evolution of john William's theme. its just too iconic to ignore and it's harmony fits the character perfect.

I think your theme is pretty good as it is.

But I think the core problem here is that the new theme should fit the new take, not just the collective idea of the character. I think the key to make a good Superman theme for the new movie is to know what the movie is actually about.

 

[sherief83]

I think your theme is pretty good as it is.

But I think the core problem here is that the new theme should fit the new take, not just the collective idea of the character. I think the key to make a good Superman theme for the new movie is to know what the movie is actually about.

I fully agree man, it will all depend on the movie it self. but the thing with Zack snyder and the way he shoots is there is plenty of opportunity (granted missed by his current composer) to get very heroic and musical if i should say. William's theme as it is will not work because its light hearted and Zack will probably have a series tone to the film. I just hope who ever gets the Gig will have a load on him/her.

 

[flickchick85]

I think your theme is pretty good as it is.

But I think the core problem here is that the new theme should fit the new take, not just the collective idea of the character. I think the key to make a good Superman theme for the new movie is to know what the movie is actually about.

Agreed. That's one thing I loved about Christopher Drake's score for All-Star Superman - unlike the usual Superman TV show/cartoon music, it didn't blatantly copy the Williams theme, yet the music perfectly captured the essence of Superman (for that more meditative, less action-packed incarnation of the character of course):



And sure, the ending of the main theme started to verge into Williams copycat territory, but before that, it was gold.

Also, that's a very nice track sherief.

 

[manofsteel4life]

Agreed. That's one thing I loved about Christopher Drake's score for All-Star Superman - unlike the usual Superman TV show/cartoon music, it didn't blatantly copy the Williams theme, yet the music perfectly captured the essence of Superman (for that more meditative, less action-packed incarnation of the character of course):



And sure, the ending of the main theme started to verge into Williams copycat territory, but before that, it was gold.

Also, that's a very nice track sherief.

Listening to this kind of brought tears to my eyes....it's sound so beautiful, and heartfelt at the same time

 

[Elevator Man]

I think your theme is pretty good as it is.

But I think the core problem here is that the new theme should fit the new take, not just the collective idea of the character. I think the key to make a good Superman theme for the new movie is to know what the movie is actually about.

Now that I can agree with. A lot better than hearing "this is a reboot so it must have a new theme" or "the Williams theme started and ended with the Reeve/Donner films therefore has no place in the reboot" or "if you're going to bring back the Williams march b/c it's the definitive Superman theme then bring back Reeve since he's the best Superman" remarks.

 

[moviedoors]

Now that I can agree with. A lot better than hearing "this is a reboot so it must have a new theme"

That's an oversimplification. Yeah, it's a reboot. I'm sure the tone is going to be different, so why not the score? It's not going to be the old movies, so the score should follow suit. These ideas go hand in hand. That's the whole point. It's a reboot. Therefore, it should address its own needs, and forget about nostalgia.

 

[Elevator Man]

That's an oversimplification. Yeah, it's a reboot. I'm sure the tone is going to be different, so why not the score? It's not going to be the old movies, so the score should follow suit. These ideas go hand in hand. That's the whole point. It's a reboot. Therefore, it should address its own needs, and forget about nostalgia.

I get what everybody's saying about MOS needing a new theme. Eventhough it's a big risk ignoring such an iconic theme in pop culture. But I find the reboot rule kind of arbitrary. You either ignore everything or you don't. Let me give you some examples of reboots keeping something from a franchise they're suppose to be ignoring. An even tipping hats to.

Batman Begins still used the rubber suit eventhough it was ignoring the other 4 films. And even gave a nod to B89 with the "I'm Batman" line.

TIH used "the lonely man theme" from the 70s tv show and didother nods from the TV show. I know it's mainly a reboot of the 2003 film but still.

The upcoming Ghost Rider movie still has Nic Cage as the lead but that's suppose to be a reboot as well.

Even Star Trek (2009) does homages to the 60s TV show and Shatner films eventhough it's suppose to be a reboot.

That's why I say that the reboot rule is kind of arbitrary. You either ignore everything or don't.

 

[El Payaso]

Agreed. That's one thing I loved about Christopher Drake's score for All-Star Superman - unlike the usual Superman TV show/cartoon music, it didn't blatantly copy the Williams theme, yet the music perfectly captured the essence of Superman (for that more meditative, less action-packed incarnation of the character of course):



And sure, the ending of the main theme started to verge into Williams copycat territory, but before that, it was gold.

Also, that's a very nice track sherief.

Beautiful theme. Now, about what you said of "Williams copycat territory," one has to accept that 'heroic' and 'march' are probably going to be mandatory. But it's different enough even when the 'heroic' parts could have made a bigger effort to willingly differentiate themselves from Williams, yes.

Now that I can agree with. A lot better than hearing "this is a reboot so it must have a new theme" or "the Williams theme started and ended with the Reeve/Donner films therefore has no place in the reboot" or "if you're going to bring back the Williams march b/c it's the definitive Superman theme then bring back Reeve since he's the best Superman" remarks.

It might actually be a good rephrasing, buyt it's the same I've been saying all along: reboot = different take = different necessities = different theme.

That's why I keep attaching the Williams' theme to the franchise where it belongs. Because a different franchise has a different feeling about it.

Now I have never been serious about bringing back Reeve, but that argument just follows the logic behind the 'it's so popular and accepted it should be brought back' logic.

I get what everybody's saying about MOS needing a new theme. Eventhough it's a big risk ignoring such an iconic theme in pop culture. But I find the reboot rule kind of arbitrary. You either ignore everything or you don't. Let me give you some examples of reboots keeping something from a franchise they're suppose to be ignoring. An even tipping hats to.

Batman Begins still used the rubber suit eventhough it was ignoring the other 4 films. And even gave a nod to B89 with the "I'm Batman" line.

TIH used "the lonely man theme" from the 70s tv show and didother nods from the TV show. I know it's mainly a reboot of the 2003 film but still.

The upcoming Ghost Rider movie still has Nic Cage as the lead but that's suppose to be a reboot as well.

Even Star Trek (2009) does homages to the 60s TV show and Shatner films eventhough it's suppose to be a reboot.

That's why I say that the reboot rule is kind of arbitrary. You either ignore everything or don't.

Very good examples about why I'd never bring back any specific elements from any previous incarnation, unless it's some basic element from comic books.

I always expected Nolan to bring us a new concept over the bat-suit. Sure BB suit looked fine, but it wasn't much more than the same Burton concept all over again with some variations (some of them being from the Schumacher suits). And yes, people were saying BB was somehow a prequel to B89. And I'd bet it was partially because fo the suit. A radically different suit would have made the necessary statement. I think Nolan - or the studios? - kept the suit for the same reasons some want the Williams theme back: it's just a so damn good concept for the character. The TDK suit is a mess. There's so m,uch variations you can do on the same thing without making it look ridiculous/way too different from what the character is supposed to be/look.

I would have erased that Lonely Man theme moment from TIH without thinking it twice. And I am a die-hard fan of the old TV series. It was nothing but a cheap wink for fans and?or people who still remembers that show. Other than that it contributed nothing to the film.

I seriously wouldn't use Ghost Rider as an example for anything here.

And yes, most people loved it, but Star Trek was for me some big-budget cheap sitcom set in space.

This "reboot" rule is not as much a rule set in stone as it is a natural artistic need. Different takes should get fed with different approaches.

 

[moviedoors]

Batman Begins still used the rubber suit eventhough it was ignoring the other 4 films. And even gave a nod to B89 with the "I'm Batman" line.

I find that a rather tenuous "connection." It isn't THE suit from any of the previous films and "I'm Batman" doesn't begin and end with Batman '89.

TIH used "the lonely man theme" from the 70s tv show and didother nods from the TV show. I know it's mainly a reboot of the 2003 film but still.

The upcoming Ghost Rider movie still has Nic Cage as the lead but that's suppose to be a reboot as well.

I'll give you those.

Even Star Trek (2009) does homages to the 60s TV show and Shatner films eventhough it's suppose to be a reboot.

And I won't give you that. That's still directly related to the other Trek series, even if in practice its a new start, it's related. That was the whole masterstroke of that movie. Give it a fresh start without pretending that nothing else happened.

And at the end of the day, for good or for ill, I want a new Superman theme. There's so much nostalgia wrapped up in this character that this is one of those reboots where I think you need to actually go all or nothing. Superman Returns already used up every last bit of nostalgia and goodwill towards the old ways of Superman being portrayed. As masterful as Williams theme is, after 5 movies and a TV series, it's time to let it go. Make a Superman movie as if the character had never existed before in any other medium.

 

[Nevaratoiel]

Unless they come up with a good theme, the current theme is epic.

 

[moviedoors]

Hey guys,
This is my very first post and I've been lurking around the forms for years. but decided to do something about this very thread since i'm a composer and huge fan of william's theme. I always wanted to do a modern take on superman with John William's main march. like an evolution of it. i tried a couple of times and failed but yesterday I was very pleased with this one...so I signed up to share it. Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj346EzQLXg

Personally what I really want to see is someone new that does this everything, evolution of john William's theme. its just too iconic to ignore and it's harmony fits the character perfect.

Nice orchestration. I'm just going to assume you didn't actually record a full orchestra, so what sampler software are you using? Is that Vienna or Miroslav? Those are great sounds and you obviously know how to program dynamics and articulation well.

Good job.

 

[Elevator Man]

I find that a rather tenuous "connection." It isn't THE suit from any of the previous films and "I'm Batman" doesn't begin and end with Batman '89.

Yet it's still a rubber suit. El Payaso already explained it better above. But BB was suppose to ignore what came before. Nolan should've started from scratch with the suit. To this day that has bugged me why he chose to use a rubber suit for his interpretation. Especially after the fiascos Schumacher has made of the batsuits in his Batman films.

I remember a few years ago someone from the Batman forums up here. Mentioned Nolan admitting the "I'm Batman" scene was a homage to B89. That line became popular after Batman 89. A 90s Snickers commercial (with a football player telling people he's Batman in the middle of a football game)even spoofed it. And the 2004 Batman cartoon "The Batman" even used that line in the pilot episode. That line has became famous catchphase/ quote in pop culture b/c of B89.

 

[moviedoors]

Yet it's still a rubber suit. El Payaso already explained it better above. But BB was suppose to ignore what came before. Nolan should've started from scratch with the suit. To this day that has bugged me why he chose to use a rubber suit for his interpretation. Especially after the fiascos Schumacher has made of the batsuits in his Batman films.

I remember a few years ago someone from the Batman forums up here. Mentioned Nolan admitting the "I'm Batman" scene was a homage to B89. That line became popular after Batman 89. A 90s Snickers commercial (with a football player telling people he's Batman in the middle of a football game)even spoofed it. And the 2004 Batman cartoon "The Batman" even used that line in the pilot episode. That line has became famous catchphase/ quote in pop culture b/c of B89.

I'm still not convinced on the suit. That just the way they look in the movies these days.

As far as the line is concerned, it being loaded as an unverifiable rumor aside, a winking half second line or the main thematic drive of your score? Yeah, I don't think a half second shout out, if even true, compares at all to one of the key creative aspects of a film. If Nolan had just reused Danny Elfman's theme, you might have a point, but as is, none of this convinces me that a completely new Superman movie should rest on its laurels when it comes to music. Yeah, give me a cute line of dialogue that harkens back to Donner's film. I'll chuckle and then the film goes on. But there's a whole galaxy's worth of difference between that and half-assing the score by basing it around Williams theme.

 

[Elevator Man]

I'm still not convinced on the suit. That just the way they look in the movies these days.

Yeah the suits from both Spiderman franchises, the SR suit, MOS suit, Daredevil (2003) movie suit, both Fantastic Four movie suits, the CA:TFA costume, Thor's costume, GL's CGI costume, etc looks like the batsuits from Burton's and Nolan's Batman films. The suits for superhero movies these days hasn't change much from Batman 89 at all.

There's a Batsuit Master thread on the Batman section that's gets into the Batman suits. So I'll get back on topic.

As far as the line is concerned, it being loaded as an unverifiable rumor aside, a winking half second line or the main thematic drive of your score? Yeah, I don't think a half second shout out, if even true, compares at all to one of the key creative aspects of a film. If Nolan had just reused Danny Elfman's theme, you might have a point, but as is, none of this convinces me that a completely new Superman movie should rest on its laurels when it comes to music. Yeah, give me a cute line of dialogue that harkens back to Donner's film. I'll chuckle and then the film goes on. But there's a whole galaxy's worth of difference between that and half-assing the score by basing it around Williams theme.

Not disagreeing with you. I'm open to a new theme and score for MOS. And hope it delivers. I'm just saying that's a big risk ignoring the Williams theme. Even think it's nonsense that they can't use it.

 

[Elevator Man]

Edit.

 

[El Payaso]

Unless they come up with a good theme, the current theme is epic.

I assure you that the "current" theme is epic even if they came up with a bad theme.

I find that a rather tenuous "connection." It isn't THE suit from any of the previous films and "I'm Batman" doesn't begin and end with Batman '89.

I don't see as tenouos since it's the exact same concept never used in any Batman incarnation other than the previous. It's the same as with the Williams theme and it attachment to the Donner franchise.

Yet it's still a rubber suit. El Payaso already explained it better above. But BB was suppose to ignore what came before. Nolan should've started from scratch with the suit. To this day that has bugged me why he chose to use a rubber suit for his interpretation. Especially after the fiascos Schumacher has made of the batsuits in his Batman films.

Specially baffling since Nolan took many elements from the Schumacher suits. Those clasps! And that cape, which is not only terrible per se looking like a courtain, but it's never covering Batman's shoulders. Nolan's suits are, of course, better than Schumacher's but still beats me why he kept those things.

I remember a few years ago someone from the Batman forums up here. Mentioned Nolan admitting the "I'm Batman" scene was a homage to B89. That line became popular after Batman 89. A 90s Snickers commercial (with a football player telling people he's Batman in the middle of a football game)even spoofed it. And the 2004 Batman cartoon "The Batman" even used that line in the pilot episode. That line has became famous catchphase/ quote in pop culture b/c of B89.

I'm not sure if it's a nod or what, but what ruined that important scene was "nice coat."

I'm still not convinced on the suit. That just the way they look in the movies these days.

Yes, after Batman changed things in 1989.

As far as the line is concerned, it being loaded as an unverifiable rumor aside, a winking half second line or the main thematic drive of your score? Yeah, I don't think a half second shout out, if even true, compares at all to one of the key creative aspects of a film. If Nolan had just reused Danny Elfman's theme, you might have a point, but as is, none of this convinces me that a completely new Superman movie should rest on its laurels when it comes to music. Yeah, give me a cute line of dialogue that harkens back to Donner's film. I'll chuckle and then the film goes on. But there's a whole galaxy's worth of difference between that and half-assing the score by basing it around Williams theme.

I agree. That line could have been a nod, but if Batman is introducing himself to the world it comes just natural.

 

[moviedoors]

Yes, after Batman changed things in 1989.

It's still vague. It isn't THE suit. It has similarities, but come on, using the ubiquity of a trend to say "see, they should reuse the theme."? Weak sauce.

 

[El Payaso]

It's still vague. It isn't THE suit. It has similarities, but come on, using the ubiquity of a trend to say "see, they should reuse the theme."? Weak sauce.

It is THE concept. The very same. Unseen, unheard of and un-used until 1989. And we would be saving time if instead of the similarities we could spot the differences, which are far less.

But no, it doesn't convince me for a Williams theme re-using since a different bat-suit concept for Nolan movies was the way to go to start with.

 

[hulk24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_iQqwYsuM
how bout something like this

 

[WormyT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_iQqwYsuM
how bout something like this

Nice tune. I think thats more Swashbuckler in rhythm I think. I could hear that as Disneys Lone Ranger theme.

 

[flickchick85]

Beautiful theme. Now, about what you said of "Williams copycat territory," one has to accept that 'heroic' and 'march' are probably going to be mandatory. But it's different enough even when the 'heroic' parts could have made a bigger effort to willingly differentiate themselves from Williams, yes.

'Heroic,' sure, but I'm not convinced about 'march,' as I think heroic, rousing scores can be - and have been - done without going into a march. Not that I want a "no marches" rule here or anything. But you're right, I may have exaggerated calling that one moment "Williams copycat territory." It was more of a preemptive strike in case anyone responded with, "well, that one part still sounded like Williams." But no one did, so oh well.

 

[sherief83]

Nice orchestration. I'm just going to assume you didn't actually record a full orchestra, so what sampler software are you using? Is that Vienna or Miroslav? Those are great sounds and you obviously know how to program dynamics and articulation well.

Good job.

Thanks man, its diffrient libraries. eastwest to vienna which is about 90% of it.