The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

[JTStarkiller]

Have they actually confirmed that Lee is jumping off JL for good?

 

[Cain]

Superman held down 4 books for over a decade one of them subtitled Man of Steel. It's not about tying in to a movie that is not even guaranteed to be a juggernaut at the box office as much as it is that Superman books are pulling decent numbers again like in the late 80's and 90's.

So they figure what the hell and put out another book & dust off an old title (MOS) to sell even more & appeal to the nostalgia of older fans. It's a sharp business move guaranteed to get them some extra bucks especially with a rumored pair of superstar creators at the helm. The character keeps getting a lot of publicity in mainstream media through DC's antics (Ie: coupling him with Diana) and they're trying to keep the momentum going.

Personally I'm done with Superman family books once Morrison leaves. At least till I finally hear they're actually worth looking at again. The main title has been a hot mess for the longest, this current volume of Supergirl was boring & contrived as hell to me during it's first 2 arcs (especially the one that was desperately trying to give her her own Lex Luthor) so I dropped it like a bad habit. Superboy has been even worse.

 

[Cain]

Have they actually confirmed that Lee is jumping off JL for good?

Yes.

 

[Cain]

i'm not too fond of Lee's art, and snyder's recent batman work has ranged from decent to groan inducing. so....yeah.....ugh.

I'm pretty mixed on Snyder myself and definitely agree on Lee. His art was awesome back when I was a kid in the early 90's. The problem is I grew up and his style didn't really evolve. It's still a showcase for a bunch of superhero poses & splash pages like poster art and not organic comic book panels and it still has that scratchy and edgy flair of the Image heyday.

I laughed so hard at Wonder Woman's 90's hair in the last JL issue I read (number 10 or 11 it was so unmemorable I even forget). There's more inventive comic book art on the market today. So I'm over his art and could pretty much go on without it for the rest of my life. Unless of course Dark Knight: Boy Wonder finally happened.

 

[CConn]

Say what you will about his pencils, but Lee's inker and colorist are consistently phenomenal.

 

[JTStarkiller]

He's one of those rare artists for me that, even though he's not the best storyteller and his range is limited, his pencils are just so damn beautiful. I think he's one of the best at showing heroes being heroes.

 

[CConn]

I like his clean line work and the vibrancy of his art.

 

[Anubis]

I think he's boring.

 

[hippie_hunter]

He's one of those rare artists for me that, even though he's not the best storyteller and his range is limited, his pencils are just so damn beautiful. I think he's one of the best at showing heroes being heroes.

I think that without the inker and colorist, Lee's art would be horrendous. I looked at what Hush looked like with just the pencils and it looked awful. CConn's absolutely right about Lee, his inker and colorist are phenomenal and to me, they're the stars of his awesome artwork.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i've said this many times before about Lee: he's not a bad artist. but his storytelling is mediocre at best, and his character designs are grossly narrow minded. his design work in general is rather bland. but he does great pin ups and backgrounds.

snyder's black mirror story was a good solid read. his owl story line started out decent enough but quickly deteriorated into pure and utter s**t. i'll never understand people's praise for him.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Superman held down 4 books for over a decade one of them subtitled Man of Steel. It's not about tying in to a movie that is not even guaranteed to be a juggernaut at the box office as much as it is that Superman books are pulling decent numbers again like in the late 80's and 90's.

So they figure what the hell and put out another book & dust off an old title (MOS) to sell even more & appeal to the nostalgia of older fans. It's a sharp business move guaranteed to get them some extra bucks especially with a rumored pair of superstar creators at the helm. The character keeps getting a lot of publicity in mainstream media through DC's antics (Ie: coupling him with Diana) and they're trying to keep the momentum going.

There's only one problem with your statement, and it's a big one: it's not the 90's anymore. The comic book industry has changed a lot since then. Asides from Batman, no character, and I mean absolutely no character can handle having more than one title in this day and age.

The only reason why Superman gets away with two is because Superman and Action Comics are long lasting legacy titles that go all the way back to 1939. And even now, he's barely handling two titles. What makes you think that Superman can handle three titles if he can't even handle two effectively? And while Superman: The Man of Steel may be a nostalgic title, it doesn't have the legacy that Superman and Action Comics do.

 

[hippie_hunter]

i've said this many times before about Lee: he's not a bad artist. but his storytelling is mediocre at best, and his character designs are grossly narrow minded. his design work in general is rather bland. but he does great pin ups and backgrounds.

Agreed. I think that was the biggest flaw with the first arc of Justice League. Johns typically likes to allow his artists to shine in the books he's working on in order to enrich the storytelling. However, when the artist is a mediocre at best storyteller, it's going to suffer.

I think that the Villain's Journey was a much better story arc than Origin. It feels like that Johns reigned in Lee in the storytelling aspect and just simply let Lee focus on what he does best at a few pin-up pages, backgrounds, a great inker/colorist, etc. as opposed to letting the art tell the story.

 

[BigSams50]

There's only one problem with your statement, and it's a big one: it's not the 90's anymore. The comic book industry has changed a lot since then. Asides from Batman, no character, and I mean absolutely no character can handle having more than one title in this day and age.

The only reason why Superman gets away with two is because Superman and Action Comics are long lasting legacy titles that go all the way back to 1939. And even now, he's barely handling two titles. What makes you think that Superman can handle three titles if he can't even handle two effectively? And while Superman: The Man of Steel may be a nostalgic title, it doesn't have the legacy that Superman and Action Comics do.

Dont you think that if the Superman books are good, that Superman would be able to handle 3 titles? I know the Superman title right now isnt selling like a Superman title should, but i think that if the writers were able to put out great story material,that Superman could easily support 3 books. (maybe not as well as Bats can, but well enough)

 

[hippie_hunter]

Dont you think that if the Superman books are good, that Superman would be able to handle 3 titles? I know the Superman title right now isnt selling like a Superman title should, but i think that if the writers were able to put out great story material,that Superman could easily support 3 books. (maybe not as well as Bats can, but well enough)

No. Like I said, I think that asides from Batman, absolutely no character can handle more than one book in today's market. And the number of characters that can even handle one book is dwindling. We're in a market where Wolverine, Deadpool, Iron Man, Superman, Spider-Man, and other multiple title supporting characters just can't do it anymore. Hell, the freaking Punisher can't even be a decent seller under Greg Rucka.

 

[CConn]

Spider-Man's been supporting two books for almost a year now, one of which has been shipping at least twice a month for the past 2-3 years. That's hardly dwindling.

 

[BigSams50]

No. Like I said, I think that asides from Batman, absolutely no character can handle more than one book in today's market. And the number of characters that can even handle one book is dwindling. We're in a market where Wolverine, Deadpool, Iron Man, Superman, Spider-Man, and other multiple title supporting characters just can't do it anymore. Hell, the freaking Punisher can't even be a decent seller under Greg Rucka.

You might have a point. It might just be blind faith on my part lol I had high hopes for the Superman books. And other then Action, i've been disappointed. Also, the idea of a Superman book by Snyder and Lee sounds like great.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Spider-Man's been supporting two books for almost a year now, one of which has been shipping at least twice a month for the past 2-3 years. That's hardly dwindling.

Amazing Spider-Man is consistent because it's both the legacy Spider-Man title and the main Spider-Man title. Legacy and main titles for franchise characters are typically the safe books. But look the Spider-Man line after One More Day: Amazing Spider-Man Family, Peter Parker: Spider-Man, and with the exception of Venom, the side titles of like Spider-Girl sold horribly and Scarlet Spider has not found a level yet.

And if you're talking about Avenging Spider-Man, that book is also dropping pretty hard. It started off at over 112k and by issue #11, it's at under 39k. And asides from the issues that tied in with Daredevil and Ends of the Earth, it's been shedding readers by the thousands with each issue.

 

[CConn]

It still disproves what you've been saying though.

I swear, your logic shifts more than California's tectonic plates.

 

[BigSams50]

Wouldn't Avenging Spider-Man starting off at over 100,000 show that Spidey has the potential to support 2 books?

 

[Cain]

There's only one problem with your statement, and it's a big one: it's not the 90's anymore. The comic book industry has changed a lot since then. Asides from Batman, no character, and I mean absolutely no character can handle having more than one title in this day and age.

The only reason why Superman gets away with two is because Superman and Action Comics are long lasting legacy titles that go all the way back to 1939. And even now, he's barely handling two titles. What makes you think that Superman can handle three titles if he can't even handle two effectively? And while Superman: The Man of Steel may be a nostalgic title, it doesn't have the legacy that Superman and Action Comics do.

Oh no don't get it twisted I'm not justifying it. Lord knows I already hate the fact that Bruce Wayne is in 4 books a month as it is. But at the same time Superman's books are pushing better units than they were 14 months ago and so of course DC wants to jump the gun and think that the solution is MORE Superman books as opposed to FIX the Superman books we already have so that they could have even greater appeal.

You're right MOS doesn't have the prestige of the other 2 brands on the line but like with the recent volume of LOTDK you can bet that there are older fans will still check it out based on the nostalgia of the brand. Of course they're the more "hardcore" type of Batman or Superman fan but DC knows this.

I just think they view it as "he's still the most popular guy outside of GL and Bats & the most recognizable superhero of them all and since his books are doing decent a third title could bring some profitability". It's stupid but hey we already know that DC editorial and publishing today is not filled with the sharpest knifes in the drawer. If it was me we'd get a second Wonder Woman book as opposed to another Superman one.

Just stating why DC is even doing this (money talks). I don't think Superman has even a fraction of the popularity he's worthy of now a days. You hear it all the time "Superman is boring", "Superman is too perfect" bla bla bla from the ignorant which unfortunately is also a huge segment of the comic book buying audience. But at the same time many of those same people will also flock to a book with Jim Lee as artist no matter how superflous it may be. You bet your ass that's where DiDio and them are coming from when they're thinking of launching a new Supes book with Lee on pencils.

Look at how well the For Tomorrow arc did compared to everything that came before it. It gave the book a sales boost even though it was a much more mediocre story than it's predecessors.

 

[Cain]

Wouldn't Avenging Spider-Man starting off at over 100,000 show that Spidey has the potential to support 2 books?

It's more so spectators seeing a new #1 issue for a tremendously popular character that made that happen than the consistent fanbase that would follow the title for long periods of time. I'm a Spider-Man fan and haven't even read one issue of Avenging Spider-Man yet and the book's been out for quite sometime now. I buy Amazing every 2 weeks. They get enough money from me as it is. I'm sure I'm not the only Spidey fan that feels that way.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It still disproves what you've been saying though.

I swear, your logic shifts more than California's tectonic plates.

No it doesn't, Spider-Man really can't handle two books at all, even Avenging Spider-Man proves it. The only healthy Spider-Man title is the long lasting and flagship Spider-Man book Amazing Spider-Man and it's been that way since One More Day.

Wouldn't Avenging Spider-Man starting off at over 100,000 show that Spidey has the potential to support 2 books?

Avenging Spider-Man started off good but it's been crashing down hard.

 

[DavidTyler]

The reason the superman books aren't selling like they should is very simple......... People don't care about them. its not the character. . Its all the changes. People are just not excited. Add to that if that there are things that don't make sense i.e. one minute he's in that horrible reboot costumes and the next he's back in the t shirt and Jeans with a silly looking cape. It looks sillier than the red trunks

 

[CConn]

The Superman books are selling badly?

 

[Mani-Man]

The reason the superman books aren't selling like they should is very simple......... People don't care about them. its not the character. . Its all the changes. People are just not excited. Add to that if that there are things that don't make sense i.e. one minute he's in that horrible reboot costumes and the next he's back in the t shirt and Jeans with a silly looking cape. It looks sillier than the red trunks

Like you said,the problem the superman comics have over the last years is not due to the character its storys like the one were he walks across america.
The new changes didnt help him either in a long term, especially when the they change everything that made him superman.

The Superman books are selling badly?

From what i heard the sellings are slightly fewer then before the reboot.
They dont sell that bad but they are far away from the numbers a superman book should bring.