BvS The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread - Part 2

[Kobra]

BVS has it's tone because of a successful trilogy that only ended 4 years ago. That is the epitome of 'safe' and lazy commercialism.

There's nothing safe about portraying Superman in a way so many people complain about.

 

[baerrtt]

There's nothing safe about portraying Superman in a way so many people complain about.

But it is completely dumb. It's SUPERMAN not Batman, Mad Max or Chris Kyle. Making him appear somewhat morally ambiguous or troubled isn't a NATURAL fit especially when you don't have writing or directing that pulls this off.

 

[Kobra]

Wh-what movie were you watching? Kylo and Vader have almost nothing in common, in terms of characterization.

To me they had a lot in common. You can twist it all the way you want, i still saw in Kylo a Vader wannabe, from the writers stand point. A lot of the characteristics Vader had, Kylo also has, starting by the appearence, modulated voice, inner conflicts and family dilemma aka like Vader, he was related to someone from the good side. So yeah, don't waste your time. Kylo was the studios attempt at having Darth Vader without having Darth Vader. "We don't have Vader, but we will create something similar". Pretty much everyone who saw the movie with me commented this. Plus, you have plenty of people calling it a remake, so it's not like we're all dumb and only you actually watched the film. I was there too and felt i had already seen it.

 

[Kobra]

But it is completely dumb. It's SUPERMAN not Batman, Mad Max or Chris Kyle. Making him appear somewhat morally ambiguous or troubled isn't a NATURAL fit especially when you don't have writing or directing that pulls this off.

It's not dumb. It makes perfect sense to make someone with so much power look less than perfect. He was created by humans. He grew up around humans. The only thing dumb is the idea that, somehow, he was supposed to develop an unquestionable moral code just because...just because...just because what? He is an alien created as a human so he will share some of their flaws too. There's absolutely no reason for him to be perfect. And honestly, that would make him even more boring. Plus, he is not all bright and happy in every comic, so Zack didn't really invent a new concept of Superman.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

To me they had a lot in common. You can twist it all the way you want, i still saw in Kylo a Vader wannabe, from the writers stand point. A lot of the characteristics Vader had, Kylo also has, starting by the appearence, modulated voice, inner conflicts and family dilemma aka like Vader, he was related to someone from the good side. So yeah, don't waste your time. Kylo was the studios attempt at having Darth Vader without having Darth Vader. "We don't have Vader, but we will create something similar". Pretty much everyone who saw the movie with me commented this. Plus, you have plenty of people calling it a remake, so it's not like we're all dumb and only you actually watched the film. I was there too and felt i had already seen it.

OK, but that's all superficial, and on purpose. Outside of the family conflict, what characteristics or personality traits do the two share?

 

[Kobra]

OK, but that's all superficial, and on purpose. Outside of the family conflict, what characteristics do the two share?

It's more than enough to give me a sense of deja vu. What other characteristics could they share? It's not like we get tons of character development in the movies where Vader appears. The way he looks, the way he talks and the fact that he is conflicted and related to someone from the good side is pretty much everything any casual viewer would remember about Vader. Those are all characteristics you can encounter in Kylo. I'm not saying they're 100% the same character. They obviously aren't. But it's nonsensical to deny that they're very similar.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

It's more than enough to give me a sense of deja vu. What other characteristics could they share? It's not like we get tons of character development in the movies where Vader appears. The way he looks, the way he talks and the fact that he is conflicted and related to someone from the good side is pretty much everything any casual viewer would remember about Vader. Those are all characteristics you can encounter in Kylo. I'm not saying they're 100% the same character. They obviously aren't. But it's nonsensical to deny that they're very similar.

That's not the argument you were making. You made it out like Kylo was a carbon-copy of Vader, and now you're moving the goalposts and saying "Oh, well they're not exactly the same, but they're similar!" Which is it? Is he a new character or a Vader-clone?

Whatever, we should drop it before a mod comes in, this is a Snyder thread. Let's talk Snyder.

 

[Kobra]

That's not the argument you were making. You made it out like Kylo was a carbon-copy of Vader, and now you're moving the goalposts and saying "Oh, well they're not exactly the same, but they're similar!" Which is it? Is he a new character or a Vader-clone?

Whatever, we should drop it before a mod comes in, this is a Snyder thread. Let's talk Snyder.

No. I said "let's find a villain that has very similar characteristics" in my post. So i always acknowledged that they were "simply" very similar, not identic.

 

[baerrtt]

It's not dumb. It makes perfect sense to make someone with so much power look less than perfect. He was created by humans. He grew up around humans. The only thing dumb is the idea that, somehow, he was supposed to develop an unquestionable moral code just because...just because...just because what? He is an alien created as a human so he will share some of their flaws too. There's absolutely no reason for him to be perfect. And honestly, that would make him even more boring. Plus, he is not all bright and happy in every comic, so Zack didn't really invent a new concept of Superman.

Did you miss the part where I said you need far better writing and directing if you're going to play the character as a damaged protagonist? It takes a lot more than what Snyder delivered to sell audiences who haven't read FOR TOMMOROW on the concept of Superman not being perfect.

 

[Kobra]

Did you miss the part where I said you need far better writing and directing if you're going to play the character as a damaged protagonist? It takes a lot more than what Snyder delivered to sell audiences who haven't read FOR TOMMOROW on the concept of Superman not being perfect.

They just have to watch MOS. If they choose to watch a movie thinking about previous interpretations of the character, that's their problem. Based on MOS's events, i have no problem with the fact that this guy acts like a human being, not like a god, despite his powers.

Speaking about morality: Just the fact that he has so much power and chooses to serve the humanity instead of simply acting as their king tells me that he has a lot more morality than most humans. In this universe this is already enough to sell him as a very good guy.

 

[baerrtt]

They just have to watch MOS. If the choose to watch a movie thinking about previous interpretations of the character, that's their problem. Based on MOS's events, i have no problem with the fact that this guy acts like a human being, not like a god, despite his powers.

Speaking about morality: Just the fact that he has so much power and chooses to serve the humanity instead of simply acting as their king tells me that he has a lot more morality than most humans. In this universe this is already enough to sell him as a very good guy.

They did and they didn't buy it. Why not find ways to work on an interpretation that didn't connect as opposed to blaming the audience? James Bond, as a character, has had depictions that painted him a handsome, wisecracking Gary Stu until 10 years ago we got a depiction that portrayed the character in a much darker light with an actor some didn't think was good looking enough for the role to boot...yet it worked because the execution was far better than whatever Snyder has been attempting since 2013.

 

[Kobra]

They did and they didn't buy it. Why not find ways to work on an interpretation that didn't connect as opposed to blaming the audience? James Bond, as a character, has had depictions that painted him a handsome, wisecracking Gary Stu until 10 years ago we got a depiction that portrayed the character in a much darker light with an actor some didn't think was good looking enough for the role to boot...yet it worked because the execution was far better than whatever Snyder has been attempting since 2013.

Didn't buy what? That he has problems? That he is conflicted? What's not to buy? Was he supposed to be all happy happy? Why? What's the reason for him to be super happy and bright with so much tragedy on his shoulders?

 

[baerrtt]

Didn't buy what? That he has problems? That he is conflicted? What's not to buy? Was he supposed to be all happy happy? Why? What's the reason for him to be super happy and bright with so much tragedy on his shoulders?

Yes to all of it. Whether you like it or not Superman 2 decades ago played on the idea that the character is capable of being conflicted on the price his role exacts from him. He turns his back on being Superman for Lois and if that hadn't been handled well audiences in 1981 would have booed it off screen.

MOS doesn't work in getting across to a modern audience that Superman is an imperfect being capable of imperfect, potentially selfish decisions. And neither does BVS.

 

[Kobra]

Yes to all of it. Whether you like it or not Superman 2 decades ago played on the idea that the character is capable of being conflicted on the price his role exacts from him. He turns his back on being Superman for Lois and if that hadn't been handled well audiences in 1981 would have booed it off screen.

MOS doesn't work in getting across to a modern audience that Superman is an imperfect being capable of imperfect, potentially selfish decisions. And neither does BVS.

So you have to believe he is perfect on all levels because...?

 

[baerrtt]

So you have to believe he is perfect on all levels because...?

General audiences perceive the character of Superman to be flawless. Therefore executing the idea that he isn't takes writing and directing of a far superior level than what Snyder, Foyer and Terrio have delivered.

Is this a difficult thing for you to grasp? The idea that the execution itself is at fault? Why should a general audience not weaned on faux gritty 90s or 90s wannabe comics automatically accept Superman as Mr morally troubled when you have a director who is incapable of basic character drama?

 

[Kobra]

General audiences perceive the character of Superman to be flawless. Therefore executing the idea that he isn't takes writing and directing of a far superior level than what Snyder, Foyer and Terrio have delivered.

Is this a difficult thing for you to grasp? The idea that the execution itself is at fault? Why should a general audience not weaned on faux gritty 90s or 90s wannabe comics automatically accept Superman as Mr morally troubled when you have a director who is incapable of basic character drama?

I have never seen any evidence that the General audiences perceive the character as being flawless. I don't even think that many people have problems with Superman not being perfect. It has more to do with the tone of the movie, which makes the character feel so different from previous live action incarnations that mean so much for so many people. The iconic image of Superman is very well present in most people's minds, and not everyone deals well with drastic changes.

I grew up with the CR's Superman and the 90's TV series. Both approaches are very light. MOS is a more dramatic story. Superman reacts in a more serious way and that makes the whole thing feel very different from what i was used to. But that doesn't have anything to do with the idea that he is supposed to be flawless. At least to me and to anyone i know that was never the issue. It just doesn't feel like the classic Superman i knew. To me that's not a problem, but to a lot of people it is.

 

[baerrtt]

I have never seen any evidence that the General audiences perceive the character as being flawless. I don't even think that many people have problems with Superman not being perfect. It has more to do with the tone of the movie, which makes the character feel so different from previous live action incarnations that mean so much for so many people. The iconic image of Superman is very well present in most people's minds, and not everyone deals well with drastic changes.

I grew up with the CR's Superman and the 90's TV series. Both approaches are very light. MOS is a more dramatic story. Superman reacts in a more serious way and that makes the whole thing feel very different from what i was used to. But that doesn't have anything to do with the idea that he is supposed to be flawless. At least to me and to anyone i know that was never the issue. It just doesn't feel like the classic Superman i knew. To me that's not a problem, but to a lot of people it is.

You've never seen any evidence of general audiences finding Superman morally flawless? The reaction to the movies we're discussing should partially tell you that.

 

[Kobra]

You've never seen any evidence of general audiences finding Superman morally flawless? The reaction to the movies we're discussing should partially tell you that.

I haven't read many reviews that suggest the movie isn't good because Superman isn't flawless.

 

[baerrtt]

I haven't read many reviews that suggest the movie isn't good because Superman isn't flawless.

I have. People pointing out that not making him enough of a contrast from Snyder's Batman is what makes the central conflict completely one dimensional.

 

[jokesonm3]

Critical pan and now box office bomb...

Warner Bros please fire this clown ASAP.

 

[Clark-Kent]

I think they should ease up to replacement of Snyder with a new director announced for Superman sequel

 

[Kobra]

I have. People pointing out that not making him enough of a contrast from Snyder's Batman is what makes the central conflict completely one dimensional.

That's not the same of saying he has to be perfect. A character can feel completely different from Batman and still be flawed. I highly doubt most people would actually want to watch a Superman movie where he has no flaws. What would be the point? Lol. That's not interesting.

 

[baerrtt]

That's not the same of saying he has to be perfect. A character can feel completely different from Batman and still be flawed. I highly doubt most people would actually want to watch a Superman movie where is has no flaws. What would be the point? Lol. That's not interesting.

What would be even more interesting is hiring a director who can depict a flawed Superman that goes over well with the public.

 

[Kobra]

What would be even more interesting is hiring a director who can depict a flawed Superman that goes over well with the public.

When was the last time a Superman went well with the public? It's obviously not an easy character to approach.

 

[baerrtt]

When was the last time a Superman went well with the public? It's obviously not an easy character to approach.

When the MCU can sell modern audiences on a character like Captain America there is no excuse for anyone not getting Superman to go down with the public now.

The 1970s was a ****** time where your blockbuster protagonists were characters like Michael Corleone and yet Donner and co didn't have to break the character down so audiences could find him 'relatable'.

How about the possibility that Superman hasn't gone down well with general audiences in awhile because you have various production teams that have poorly tried turning him into something he's not by conception.