The Punisher

Right, because the mob never has a personal vendetta against anyone other than Frank Castle. The destructive actions of the mob never touches any other lives.
It certainly didn't within the confines of the movie. Outside of Jane's characters family, no other innocent lives were touched.

I feel like Castle said, quite clearly: "those who do evil to others" at the end of the movie.

He made a direct statement about the kind of people he would be going after. People who would harm others.
That's what he said alright, but there was no reason for him to say any such thing, there was no arch leading up to it. It was tacked on and poorly written, and that is all there is to it.

Taking on the mob was his crucible. There's no law that suggests he cannot go after other criminals after this, or that he needs some complex reason to do so.
Only the basics of coherent character motivation and development, which is something writer/director Jonathan Hensleigh (whose career in Hollywood essentially ended after this) simply does not master.

Because having had "evil done" to him, and almost to his new "friends", and seeing various criminals and sadists growing rich off the suffering of others and through corruption isn't enough?
It would have been if a point was made of it, which it wasn't.

Case in point, Howard Saint himself is more of a moneylaunderer, that's what he does. His clients, the Toro brothers, are likely the real heavyduty criminals, the ones with loads of bloods on their hands. But we don't see this, no reference is made to it, and Jane does not go after them. The entire focus is the revenge on Howard Saint, who outside of the Castle family, his own men, and that cop who owed him a lot of money, isn't even seen looking sideways at anyone or anything else.

You're overcomplicating things in your analysis, and missing the point of the sequence. The point of that sequence is that this is the sole reason he decides to go on living. He decides to stay alive to kill criminals and those who would harm others. It's not particularly eloquent...but it never has been. This is the simplest, most direct element of Castle, and always has been.

And complaining about his reason for killing criminals not being the same as his origin story is really kind of splitting hairs, because there isn't just one reason he does what he does. In the comics, Frank Castle has been shown to have a number of reasons for why he kills criminals. They range from the trauma he experienced, to the fact that he likes to make them suffer, to wanting to protect innocents, to outright hating criminals.
True, there are more reasons why he does what he does, not a single one of which was covered by the movie. And no matter his reasons, the comicbook origin gives him some level of justification to go after all criminals, the 2004 does not. The mob didn't kill Jane Castle's family, that was down to a colleague with a drugproblem, a bereaved moneylaunderer, and his own sting, botched by himself.

And no, I am not overcomplicating - it is those who are giving the subpar character-development and lack of motivation a pass who are oversimplifying.
 
It certainly didn't within the confines of the movie. Outside of Jane's characters family, no other innocent lives were touched.

I guess someone's entire family being murdered doesn't drive the point home that this sort of thing could happen?

And one's friends/neighbors being threatened doesn't count as innocents being in danger?

Kay.

That's what he said alright, but there was no reason for him to say any such thing, there was no arch leading up to it. It was tacked on and poorly written, and that is all there is to it.

The entire movie is about him perfecting his methods of killing criminals and eventually declaring his war on them. He even lists the reason he is doing so, with his manifesto, which is clearly his ideology that will drive his war on crime.

How is it suddenly "tacked on" when he decides to go on doing so after essentially doing it for the entire film and then successfully taking out Saint's organization?

Of course there was a reason for him to say such a thing. 1, he was pretty good at it, and 2, it was the only reason he had found for him to go on. He felt like he could stand against those types of people and punish them, and was willing to go on living in order to do so. Its sort of the entire point of his arc (which you claim is not in the film, but very much is) and the film, and largely the core concept of the character from the comics.

It's not rocket science (and never has been). It doesn't require a brilliant recognition on his part after what he has just seen of the criminal world that dangerous, unlawful people are still out there, especially since we see some of them and different types of them over the course of the film.

Only the basics of coherent character motivation and development, which is something writer/director Jonathan Hensleigh (whose career in Hollywood essentially ended after this) simply does not master.

It would have been if a point was made of it, which it wasn't.

I feel like the point was fairly clearly made.

I'm unsure why you think Castle doesn't have any coherent character motivation and development during the film. He has a very clear character arc and series of developing motivations and methods during the film.

Case in point, Howard Saint himself is more of a moneylaunderer, that's what he does. His clients, the Toro brothers, are likely the real heavyduty criminals, the ones with loads of bloods on their hands. But we don't see this, no reference is made to it, and Jane does not go after them.

1. Howard Saint has a lot of blood on his hands. Blood that concerns Castle more at the moment.

2. Howard Saint is clearly something of a warlord, if a weaker one. The Toro Brothers are another criminal organization. No, Castle does not go after them directly. He does, however, blow up their money and put them on edge.

But his entire focus is on Howard Saint, who outside of the Castle family, his own men, and that cop who owed him a lot of money, isn't even seen looking sideways at anyone or anything else.

And why would he look at anyone else? He is driven by revenge against this particular man and his closest associates, in fact the Saint family. Once he kills the criminals who wronged him and his family, then he can turn his attention to others. Which is exactly what happens at the end of the movie.

True, there are more reasons why he does what he does, not a single one of which was covered by the movie.

Simply not true.

1. The movie presents a psychological reason for his war...his own trauma and desire for revenge.

2. The movie shows very clearly that he cares about the well being of innocent people, another reason Castle does what he does.

3. The movie shows his loss of faith in the law enforcement/justice system, another major reason Castle does what he does.

4. The movie shows very clearly that he hates criminals with extreme prejudice, which is another reason Castle does what he does.

5. He's good at it. He was trained for war, and he has mastered the methods he will need to wage it.

And no matter his reasons, the comicbook origin gives him some level of justification to go after all criminals, the 2004 does not.

...

In the movie's finale, he very clearly says "Those who do evil to others". If you can't see the connection between "those who do evil to others" and "all criminals", that's on you, I would think, not the film.

He also, in saying this, lists, out of the four types of criminals he mentions, three types of people that he has directly encountered DURING the film.

1. Killers-I mean, Saint killed his entire family, and we can assume the hired assassins were killers, I would think.

2. Psychos-The Russian would seem to qualify.

3. Sadists-Quentin Glass fits the bill nicely, as do the Saints in some capacity.

The mob didn't kill Jane Castle's family, that was down to a colleague with a drugproblem, a bereaved moneylaunderer, and his own sting, botched by himself.

I'm fairly certain that elements of the mob did, in fact, quite literally systematically murder his entire family. Splitting hairs again. Of course all the mobsters in the world weren't there, so maybe it doesn't count.
 
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Punisher should be a tv show on AMC alongside the Walking Dead. It's the only place it could really work as I don't see him appearing in the movies anytime soon.
 
No, keep these shows on Netflix.

I don't know if everything should go on Netflix. Even Marvel has stated that it won't be their go-to outlet. The heroes for the Defenders are PG-16 at best. Punisher is a rated R character, and works best as a standalone. If you want him in the MCU, you kind of have to have him doing his own thing, in an area away from the others.
 
I mean no offense, but that is a terrible idea. Changing the origin was the single biggest mistake of the 2004 movie, and it is a mistake that should never be repeated again. I’ll explain why:

The proper comic book origin gives Frank Castle a reason and a philosophical justification for becoming the Punisher. The one you suggest, and the similar ones seen in the 2004 and 1989 movies, does not.

Consider: While on a day out in the park, the Castle family by pure accident stumbled over a mob execution. It doesn't matter if they simply were caught in the crossfire or if they were killed after a panicked and desperate split second decision to kill off any innocent bystanders who happened to be witnesses. The point is that the shooters would have reacted the exact same way if it had been any other random jogger, couple, family or whoever else that happened to stumble into their affairs, it was just sheer bad luck and nothing else that it happened to be the Castles. Had they not stumbled onto that specific location within a very critical time frame probably only lasting somewhere from seconds to minutes, they would have been perfectly fine. The outcome would likely have been the same if another family stumbled onto the scene within the same critical time interval, or if other shooters and mobster families altogether were involved.

The crux of the matter is that crime destroys innocent lives randomly and indiscriminately.

Furthermore, there is no justice, as was shown by the courts failure to convict anyone, despite Castle’s eager testimonial. It was but a random situation made possible by crime in general and organized crime in particular, and this is what gives The Punisher some level of philosophical justification to go after ALL criminals.

In the 2004 movie however, this casual ambiguity and coincidence, which is rather profound when you think about it, had nothing to do with it. The Saints weren't having a shootout with another group of mobsters, they were deliberately and actively seeking out Frank Castle and Frank Castle only, as he was the one who lead and botched the sting that got their son killed. From their point of view, which has some merit, Castle drew first blood and they are getting even. Killing the entire extended family was but the whim of a grief-stricken mother. As such, what happened to Castle could never have happened to anyone else, as it was but personal vendetta, not random. Vendetta of course breeds vendetta, so the 2004 movie origin gave Frank Castle all the reason in the world to go after the Saints specifically, but it also stripped him off any justification to take out anyone else! This is also clear in the movie, as the decision to go after all criminals comes completely out of the blue, with nothing building up to it or alluding to it in advance. Think about it, one moment he is contemplating suicide, then he has good memories of the wife saying goodbye, which by rights signals that he should have started life over with Joan - instead he is suddenly determined to call himself the Punisher and kill criminals and rapists??? Why? This does not compute. This is inept writing at its worst. That was a standard a revenge movie with a Punisher ending tacked onto itbecause it was supposed to be a Punisher movie, despite that ending not at all jiving the narrative of the movie.

When Marvel brings the Punisher into the fray, they need to do it right – and that involves staying true to the source material, and the source material origin – the one where Frank Castle becoming the Punisher follows naturally.

:applaud:applaud:applaud:applaud
 
I want to add to this..

The biggest reason why they should NOT change the origin is it provides contrast towards Captain America.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0620333/

The Cap became a hero during our finest hour yet Frank became an anti hero during our least one. I blame the realism fanatics that came about during the Batman Begins as to why they feel the name to retcon Frank's age. I tweeted the author of Warzone (who loves the character but isn't as well versed with him as most of us die hard Punisher fans) that in a world full of potions and magic it shouldn't be that hard to explain Punisher's age. Magic is also mention in the MCU so whats the big deal? He replied my points were valid but Twitter isn't a good medium to discuss. (In a minute I can provide proof).

Lastly, anyone who has read the masterpiece Born knows that it would suck if told in a middle eastern setting, and we are long over due for another good Vietnam war story.
 
Lastly Frank has to be over 60 years old, and there is nothing more awesome than a grandpa that could kick your butt!
 
Seriously. Elektra has killed plenty of people just for money. Deadpool does it for money when he isn't in it for the yuks. Venom is a deranged, murderous half-alien. And Castle is supposed to be worse than those guys? Come on now.

Agreed.

There are anti-heroes and superheroes who are effectively mercenaries that kill for money.

Part of the reason some people don't get The Punisher is because they view the character through the guise of a superhero.

Frank Castle is a character who wages war on organised crime. He is a former solider who uses the military tactics and gorilla warfare he learned in Vietnam on the streets. The Punisher isn't out to apprehend criminals or disrupt there activity, the Punisher is out to completely dismantle criminal organizations and execute the people running those organizations.

Frank kills people because he believes in moral absolutism.
Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act.

He doesn't believe in the rehabilitation of criminals generally. The fact that he hunts and kills criminals also makes him far more feared by the average criminals of the Marvel universe.

I don't think Marvel necessarily needs to make The Punisher a likeable guy but they should make you understand why he does what he does.
 
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I think a great way to include The Punisher in the MCU as a villain Or I guess more specifically an antagonist. For like either Daredevil or Captain America.
 
I don't know if everything should go on Netflix. Even Marvel has stated that it won't be their go-to outlet. The heroes for the Defenders are PG-16 at best. Punisher is a rated R character, and works best as a standalone. If you want him in the MCU, you kind of have to have him doing his own thing, in an area away from the others.

I completely disagree. On his own he's just another action movie character. He's most interesting with super powered characters to interact with, whether villains to fight or superheroes to outsmart or morally contrast
 
agreed.
daredevil.jpg
 
The Punisher 89 movie had its good moments :)

"Well what the hell do you call 125 murders in 5 year?"

"Work in progress."
 
The Punisher 89 movie had its good moments :)

"Well what the hell do you call 125 murders in 5 year?"

"Work in progress."

The most interesting thing for me about the 1989 Punisher movie is that if you look at Dolph Lundgren at his present age in 2015, he looks so much like Frank Castle in the comic books and less of the pretty boy he looked like back in 1989.
 
I feel like if there are to be more Netflix series, Moon Knight and Elektra should take those slots since they fit in best with the Defenders.

I feel like if ABC is to get another Marvel show, they'd do best with She-Hulk since a She-Hulk show would be a legal sitcom which occasionally has a supervillain or two to fight.

I'd look for ABC Family to be the network for young teen heroes like New Warriors and Avengers Academy.

The Disney Channel should be the network for Power Pack.

For Punisher, he needs no limit on content since he's aimed at a mature audience. Part of me says Netflix but he's not on good terms with any of the Defenders characters. I feel like Starz would be the best place for Punisher.

HBO and Cinemax are owned by Warner. Showtime is owned by CBS. Starz is owned by Anchor Bay who are a much smaller company and have deals in place with Disney for access for airing Disney films on cable so the two companies already have a good relationship which makes it surprising that Disney hasn't purchased Anchor Bay since they lack a premium cable station as well as a low budget film studio. Starz is known for gritty adult TV series like Spartacus, Magic City, Da Vinci's Demons, Camelot and Outlander. He fits the Network's profile like a glove.

Plus unlike the Netflix series, he's great for short 3-episode monster of the week arcs. rather than whole season stories. His enemies die, often graphically.

I feel like Marvel has it right so far with Avengers being PG-13, Defenders being R and Agents of SHIELD falling into TV-14 right alongside the Avengers audience. Punisher is so much darker than those characters. He's willing to kill in cold blood, he's often worse than his enemies and he's more of a satire of anti-heroes played completely straight than anything else. I really want to see Punisher shown in all his gritty, grisly glory in a world with filled with brothels, junkies and child molesters where it's just a black hole devoid of any hope or compassion. He needs to be shown in all his NC-17 rated glory on Starz to the point where people will nickname the show Game of Guns.

Frank is often shown to be a straight-edge who doesn't smoke or drink and has next to no sex drive. He'll hear that some cartel leader is in a strip club in Mexico and Frank doesn't even bother to check out the scenery, he just starts torturing a guy to death loudly while everybody else is watching naked chicks or getting a lap dance. So Frank isn't even the edgiest character since everyone else is shown to be engaging in all sorts of depravity.
 
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If the Punisher shows up in a movie or a TV series, I demand the white boots and gloves. :D
 
I think the Punisher is an easy choice for the 2nd wave of shows after Defenders. Give Daredevil a second season, merge Iron Fist and Luke Cage into Heroes for Hire. Start a show with the Punisher (have him appear in Daredevil's 2nd season to introduce him), and for 4th show you can either do another new character like Moon Knight or something or give Jessica Jones another season depending upon her success. Or you can make her a regular on Heroes for Hire. Either works.
 
Except Iron Fist has had plenty of solo stories since teaming up with Cage. Defenders are now merged with the Heroes for Hire and Marvel Knights so members of the various different teams can join together. (It's also Marvel's way of writing around Fox owning Iceman, Silver Surfer and Human Torch.) It's consolidating the teams into one since they share a lot of members. Then there's also the issue that the street level heroes were also branded as New Avengers under Bendis and Mighty Avengers under Al Ewing.

Also, some Avengers have been Defenders (Hulk, She Hulk, Namor, Iron Fist and Doctor Strange) and some Marvel Knights have also been Avengers (Luke Cage, Spider-Man) so expect to see some characters from the films crossing over into the TV series and certain TV characters appearing in the films.

But back to the point. Cage and Fist will see enough of each other that they can sustain their own solo adventures.

Punisher should get his own series. I'd try to sell it to Starz first since they have a good relationship with Disney and Frank's stories are often self-contained. Captain America, Luke Cage and Daredevil can't stand Punisher and want to bring him to justice while Spider-Man and Black Widow are the only superheroes who'll want anything to do with the guy. IF they don't bite, then put him on Netflix provided the previous MCU shows are successful. I just feel like Elektra and Moon Knight fit the street level Marvel Universe better as the next Netflix series.

And I feel like She-Hulk should be part of the Defenders but also get her own show since her stories are far less serious and often in sitcom territory. I'd see if ABC would be willing to take a third Marvel show.

Disney Channel gets Power Pack (which will presumably not cross over with Punisher).

And ABC Family can have their choice of New Warriors, Avengers Academy or Runaways.
 
I really, REALLY hope we get a Punisher series. Of all the Marvel characters, and possibly of all superhero characters in general, I feel like the Punisher is the EASIEST one to get right, and yet somehow, they've managed to f*** it up THREE times. Just make it like an old school Charles Bronson movie. It's really not that hard.
 
I'm curious who they would get to be the Punisher if they make a Netflix series.

I always liked Thomas Jane as the Punisher; but I don't think he'll return to the role.

I loved Ray Stevenson even more in the role. He's actually the perfect age now. I believe he's 50 or almost 50-years-old.

Yes, he's in Thor. But he's under so much red hair and make-up with the beard I doubt anyone would recognize him without it.

But I have faith a Netflix Punisher series will happen.
 
Ray Stevenson and anything related to War Zone should be avoided like the plague.
 
Ray Stevenson and anything related to War Zone should be avoided like the plague.

Say what you want, but many out there who really love Stevenson as the Punisher. They may not have liked War Zone as much, but believe he's been out best iteration of the Punisher.
 

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