The Runaways Thread

[Dread]

If it were almost anyone other than Ramos drawing, I'd probably at least give it a try. But the Runaways as a whole have soured on me, and Ramos is basically the straw that broke the camel's back.

Agreed.

I wanted a autographed drawing with Molly in crocs but I didn't get to at Wizard World How is Initiative ranking on the scales with YA and Runaways?

I'm enjoying AVENGERS: INITIATIVE quite a bit. The YA mini was as good as whatever writer had whichever issue but was good overall, although Marvel's refusal to bypass Heinberg has robbed the series of momentum. RUNAWAYS hasn't been the same without the launch team. A:TI at least has a slew of characters and more support. But, others knock it more.

YA's potential is greater, but Marvel hasn't tapped it sufficiently.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh come on. Are you telling me you ended up with your first love? Or even second? Heck even third, fourth, fifth??? Life is messy.

I've had a few long term and a few REALLY short term relationships. And guess what? They've all had to end so I could be in the relationship I'm in now. And all those endings were messy. OK, not death and destruction messy but these are superpowered people we're talking about

Yes, I know relationships end. But they don't always end, and they don't always end practically before they've even begun. Whedon's work at this point would have you believe otherwise. It seems like he's made a point of that particular motif, and it's just annoying because it's only one aspect of life.

 

[SLVRSR4]

Agreed.



I'm enjoying AVENGERS: INITIATIVE quite a bit. The YA mini was as good as whatever writer had whichever issue but was good overall, although Marvel's refusal to bypass Heinberg has robbed the series of momentum. RUNAWAYS hasn't been the same without the launch team. A:TI at least has a slew of characters and more support. But, others knock it more.

YA's potential is greater, but Marvel hasn't tapped it sufficiently.

I'll have to pick that up then. I'm liking the art for the mini-secret invasion-crossover

 

[Dread]

I'll have to pick that up then. I'm liking the art for the mini-secret invasion-crossover

The only caveat with the YA/RUNAWAYS SI crossover is that a lot of the YA bits have been written by Bendis in the event proper, so in a way they have to follow that sequence and this are more predictable. Still, it continues after Whedon's run ends and does focus on some other characters.

The YA PRESENTS mini I am sure will be in trade form by Christmas, so I would suggest waiting for that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think the YA stuff in SI is a problem. We've only really seen them witness the initial Skrull invasion and fight a few Skrulls alongside the Initiative in Times Square.

 

[Dread]

I don't think the YA stuff in SI is a problem. We've only really seen them witness the initial Skrull invasion and fight a few Skrulls alongside the Initiative in Times Square.

We also saw them

Spoiler

get frozen by a Skrull mystic, Vision torn in half, and then rescued by Nick Fury's Secret Warriors. Thus, we already know they lose the brawl in Time Square.

 

[JackBauer]

http://www.amazon.com/Runaways-Dead-Kids-Premiere-Marvel/dp/0785128530/ref=pd_sim_b_57

Now, that cover's just silly. Even Molly looks like she's embarassed of it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's part of Marvel's attempt to appeal to more readers by making every effort to hide the fact that their hardcovers are collections of comic books.

 

[Dread]

So, let me get this straight. Most RUNAWAYS stories usually go to digest first. It is the format where RUNAWAYS sold best, as it revived them from exile after their first volume. Yet DEAD END KIDS immediately goes to the more expensive HC format because, why, because Joss Whedon wrote it?

People who believe the comic industry doesn't play favorites are just kidding themselves.

Especially since readers of the digests have had to wait EXTRA long for Whedon's 6 issues.

And yes, the cover is pretty stock. A fanboy on Photoshop with 20 minutes probably could have done a lot better.

Then again, DC just did a slew of ads for FINAL CRISIS that looked like they went through a "MOTIVATIONAL" engine that even I have used.

 

[Star]

HAHAHAH, Wow. Way to put JOSS WHEDDON in massive huge letters so people will think it's his autobiography or something. Jeez

 

[Dread]

HAHAHAH, Wow. Way to put JOSS WHEDDON in massive huge letters so people will think it's his autobiography or something. Jeez

There's no point in hiring an A-List writer who brings instant appeal and sales regardless of content quality if you DON'T flaunt it.

The shame of it was that I originally thought Whedon would be a solid fit, and he told a decent enough story. But the delays and overhype took a lot out of it, and he was buried in fanboyism tactics to clog the characters.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I think it was a suck-ass story in its entirety

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked most of it. The last few issues were disappointing, but it had a decent start.

 

[Dread]

It was mediocre, B- territory. Which wasn't bad, but not quite up to Whedon's pedigree, or at least from what I hear. Frankly he hasn't produced a Marvel comic story as worthy of his pedigree yet. He excels at telling generic stories with good moments and teaming with the slowest artists in creation. Unless it is BUFFY, where he uses things like "fill-in talent" and doesn't cry a river about it. But maybe that is because he probably has more editorial control over BUFFY. Although I've yet to meet a Marvel editor who wasn't a slave to being Hollywood star-struck and would let any writer from any movie or TV show do whatever they want with any franchise or talent decision, but whatever, I'm not in the mood for another BrianWilly fight. The lateness wasn't his fault at all, he's just very unlucky with getting slow artists.

I can sense his fanboyism, but he allowed the worst bits of it to consume him on RUNAWAYS, loading it with characters I couldn't given two ****'s about and now saddling the team with another member who is literally a one joke pony. Saddling the next creative team with another new team member who has virtually no personality beyond, "I come from 100 years ago and I am experiencing culture shock" is borderline arrogant (because, of course, there is NO WAY Terry Moore would dump the new Mary Sue if the almighty Joss Whedon blessed it with life, and if Whedon seriously doesn't know the effect that his clout has on other writers, then he's the dumbest man on the face of the earth). By two arcs, that persona will be expended of all potential and whoever is still on the book will be wondering what to do with 1908 Plant Girl. But I won't care, because I won't be on the book anymore. At least when Dan Slott creates a character, he doesn't immediately abandon ship and leave the next crew to sort it out. And at least Whedon's creations in AXM like Agent Brand were fleshed more (even if Agent Brand is simply, "Maria Hill as an alien", but whatever, she redeemed herself by the end).

Maybe I'm a tad bitter because Whedon came in on Vaughan's book after Vaughan wrote it for about 4 years, had Vaughan and every other creator licking his rear, and has produced a standard action story that is not terrible but is worse than most of Vaughan's run that got more attention and sales simply because Whedon is an A-List name who wrote BUFFY, ANGEL and FIREFLY in TV and film. Maybe the sheer shallowness of the industry and the fans gets to me, and that is part of why Whedon often gets the brunt of my anger. And I hate that it was his run on his watch that turned me off on a franchise I used to love despite his attempt to do well with it, improve on his pace from AXM, and do as much with the issues he had as he could.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think Whedon excels at dialogue more than anything else. He imbues his characters with very distinctive, entertaining voices. He seems to have a pretty limited bag of tricks for the stuff that goes on around that dialogue, though.

 

[Dread]

I think Whedon excels at dialogue more than anything else. He imbues his characters with very distinctive, entertaining voices. He seems to have a pretty limited bag of tricks for the stuff that goes on around that dialogue, though.

That's a fair estimate. He has that tendency to write every line as if he wants it to be a quote on a shirt, which often can seem unnatural. But it is better than Bendis' "Yeah?", "Yeah." for 7 pages straight.

Maybe Whedon would excel better in comics with a co-writer. And a faster artist.

 

[Underclass]

I dunno, I picked up the trade, and when you read it straight through it's actually a pretty good story with enjoyable dialouge. It also looks great. There are some corners cut, like what the hell happened between Nico and her great-grandmother? She's being tortured and then she's just free. I think it would be interesting to pick up on that at a later date. Possibly even that's actually Nico's ancestor at the end and the rest have to go back to 1907 to save the real Nico once they find out. Might sound lame, but it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. The huge, huge problem was waiting months between every issue. It can be bad enough waiting four weeks for a comic sometimes. I know the official excuse was to blame the artists for this and AXM, but anyone can put two and two together and realise that Whedon must have been late. A lot. I think Whedon will excel doing something he cares more about and has a greater vested interest in, like the Buffy comics, in fact I guess they very much became his priority.
I am looking forward to Moore's run. I loved Strangers in Paradise and Echo is very promising.

 

[Dread]

I dunno, I picked up the trade, and when you read it straight through it's actually a pretty good story with enjoyable dialouge. It also looks great. There are some corners cut, like what the hell happened between Nico and her great-grandmother? She's being tortured and then she's just free. I think it would be interesting to pick up on that at a later date. Possibly even that's actually Nico's ancestor at the end and the rest have to go back to 1907 to save the real Nico once they find out. Might sound lame, but it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. The huge, huge problem was waiting months between every issue. It can be bad enough waiting four weeks for a comic sometimes. I know the official excuse was to blame the artists for this and AXM, but anyone can put two and two together and realise that Whedon must have been late. A lot. I think Whedon will excel doing something he cares more about and has a greater vested interest in, like the Buffy comics, in fact I guess they very much became his priority.
I am looking forward to Moore's run. I loved Strangers in Paradise and Echo is very promising.

Whedon never blamed his artists directly but usually would cite that all his scripts were on time. Now, there are some people who say that if Whedon cared more, he could have tried to use his clout to get things going faster. There are others who saw him as a helpless victim of editorial bungling by saddling him with two slow artists in a row, and his hands were tied. I'm clearly on one side, but I want to avoid some arguments, so let's presume the latter for now.

I am sure it all reads better in a trade. Slow creative teams have been making that argument for a good 6 years now, at least. Ever since latenesses started becoming the norm rather than the exception. They always go, "look at the big picture". But the big picture is that more people read the comics monthly than usually EVER will in trade, and some consideration for the pace of their enjoyment is worth more than a smug scoff at "the future". These creators also cite manga, but manga often is published at a page count beyond 22 pages every 1-2 months. If I was getting 44-60 pages a month, yeah, I could forgive some delays or decompression. But we're not, and seeing creators defend latenesses by citing a foreign market seems like a lame excuse.

The Whedon/Ryan arc had a lot of good moments and potential, but it also was overloaded with useless characters and lateness does factor into enjoyment. It was a B-, popcorn fluff sort of effort. Not as terrible as some hardcore fans make it sound, but hardly stellar. The lasting legacy of the run will likely be Chase leaning more towards the idiot he was in Vol. 1 vs. the "darker, more cunning" character Vaughan introduced in his later arcs, and the one-note 1907 girl.

 

[Underclass]

I think you summed it up by saying it had a lot of good moments. I don't think it'll add much to the scheme of things in terms of the overall Runaways situation three of four arcs down the line. I really hope people give Moore a chance. He's fantastic at characterisation, and if anyone can give flower-growing-girl a personality of her own he can. I know people rag on Ramos a lot, and most of it is deserved. He's not so much a bad artist, as a cartoonist who is very limited in the tone he is capable of conveying. Wacky, off-beat, irreverent fluff is his thing, something like the Mangaverse would be ideal for him, where charicature is what works. For subtlety, action and anything with a darker tone he's all wrong. His work with Wolverine over Civil War is an example. I loved one panel, the one where all the board members cowardly walk out of the board room with hilarious expressions on their faces. But it was the only good panel he drew over that entire run, because it was the only panel with a tone that suited his talents. For what it's worth I don't think he'll do well with Runaways, Moore's strength lies in characterisation and subtlety, which are Ramos's weaknesses. I'd love to see Moore do the art himself, but realise that it would be far too big a workload for him on top of Spider-man Loves Mary Jane and Echo. Incidentally, he's been praising Ramos's art over on his blog, but he kind of has to tow the party line, so I'll take that with a sachet of sodium chloride.

 

[Dread]

Ramos is most of why I am not bothering with Moore's run. WIZARD magazine rarely had good points, but one was that while a writer is vital, an artist can make a good story better, a bad story worth looking at, or can absolutely kill a good story. Ramos, as you said, is a cartoonist whose fit is not mainstream Marvel fare and I don't want to see his RUNAWAYS claymation style. It is a shame because Moore sounds like a decent fit, but I can't stomach bad art for long. If it was a 2 issue fill in, I can suck it up, but Ramos is the announced regular artist.

Plus, as I stated in prior posts, I have developed apathy for the franchise. I don't care as much as I did a year or two ago. I've found other Marvel titles to replace it and the Whedon/Ryan run, frankly, got me used to doing without, and I saw I didn't care. It is a shame, because there is potential in the RUNAWAYS, especially given that they are on a fast track to get a movie done. But without Vaughan, recapturing the "lightening in a bottle" may be a Herculean task.

Manga doesn't even try; once the creator calls it a day, it is a day. There is no endless cycle. But the Wastern and Eastern comic formats are very different.

 

[Underclass]

All valid points. I care far more about how well written a comic is than how it looks, but art I don't like can sometimes put me off. For instance, I just don't like Joe Sacco's art. I think his writing is fantastic, his sense of timing is spot on, but I find myself struggling to enjoy his stuff because I don't like the art. I especially dislike the way he draws people's mouths when they are speaking. I'll stick with Runaways partly out of loyalty to the title, but mostly out of admiration for Moore, who is not just a great writer, his stuff gets better and better as it goes along. If he's in it for the long haul his work will be very special, hopefully outlasting Ramos. Or he may learn to write to suit Ramos (far more likely than the reverse).
Having said that I have found Ramos's art to be offputting in many instances. I HATED, I mean HATED how he drew Colossus. I lots of people in real life who can do better who don't consider themselves good enough to be professional artists or illustrators. Bottom line, if it's Terry Moore I'll give it a very good chance.

 

[Kevin]

Ramos is a reason I'm getting this book.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ramos is the primary reason I'm not getting it. I'm kind of bored with the Runaways in general, though.

 

[bengan]

I hated Ramos, but after I saw theese preview pages, I changed my mind

http://comics.ign.com/articles/899/899461p1.html

 

[Dread]

I hated Ramos, but after I saw theese preview pages, I changed my mind

http://comics.ign.com/articles/899/899461p1.html

For Ramos, it isn't bad, but it is too cartoony and goofy looking.