Homecoming The Side-Villains: the Shocker and Thinkerer thread!

[Arachnerd]

Going on to something more relevant, how should Shocker be characterized in this film?

Now I don't think Shocker is a particularly well developed character in the comics and I am assuming he will be a henchman rather then the Big Bad, there 3 ways you can play him:

Vulture is pretty much confirmed to be the main villain in the film, so yeah.

 

[The Overlord]

Vulture is pretty much confirmed to be the main villain in the film, so yeah.

That doesn't mean we can't talk how his personality should be portrayed in the films.

I notice most henchman villains don't have much personality in these movies, in X-Men 1 none of the villains besides Magneto had any personality, but later on Mystique and Sabertooth got more personality, but someone like Riptide from First Class had no personality.

And really Shocker is not a well defined character in the comics, his personality is not well developed at all. So they could just make him a goon with almost no personality and have Vulture have all the personality or they could give him a very sympathetic or unsympathetic personality so he can play off Vulture and Spidey.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Agreed. Shocker just side villain type of character. Not got proper personality. Just goon with shock units on wrists. I hope they give him better story and personality.

 

[JOE]

I'd love to see the movie starting out with Spidey fighting Schultz right away. Similar to what TASM 2 with the Rhino. Without the suit, then with later on.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

I loved that the Spectacular cartoon made Montana into the Shocker--using underappreciated characters in the Enforcers and providing a backstory for Shocker. Wouldn't want to see that here, but something similar couldn't hurt. I liked how he was portrayed as a professional, nothing personal--sort of similar in Marvel Knights Spider-Man first run by Millar.

I'd also be totally fine with a more "Ultimate" characterization or even "Superior Foes". Really, Shocker is a blank book. As long as he doesn't suck out loud, it'll be hard to piss fans off based on his representation.

 

[metaphysician]

I think the best use for the Shocker is *not* as an ally of the main villain, or particularly involved in the main plot. He's a side villain, somebody who is a recurring obstacle for Spider-man. When Peter is distracted from getting to school on time stopping a bank robbery, it was Shocker robbing the place. When he's trying to go on a date, its Shocker who knocks over an armored car across the street. Etc.

As such, its less important what Shocker's motives or ideals are, and more important what his personality and style are. It needs to be something catchy, that plays off of Spider-man well. "Calm, collected professional, versus constant snarking wise-cracker", for example.

 

[Arachnerd]

With Marvel's track record on villains, I'm a little dubious when it comes to this.

Good acting won't matter if neither villain is interesting nor written well, but I'm cautiously optimistic still.

 

[CaptainWagner]

You don't need to give him a ton of screentime to still give him a good personality. Personally, as much as I love him in Superior Foes, I'm hoping they go with the serious professional personality to contrast more with Spidey and his more colorful rogues.

 

[Oscorp]

You don't need to give him a ton of screentime to still give him a good personality. Personally, as much as I love him in Superior Foes, I'm hoping they go with the serious professional personality to contrast more with Spidey and his more colorful rogues.

That's what I also want from Shocker, the serious professional one.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

I think the best use for the Shocker is *not* as an ally of the main villain, or particularly involved in the main plot.

Definitely agreed, I'd be really disappointed if they went that route.

Professional Shocker is cool with me, but I kinda doubt that's what we get. Especially if Vulture is supposed to be super menacing, I would think Shocker would be more of a punching bag/joke type character.

 

[terry78]

Shocker's mentality has always been that he's a career criminal, emphasis on career. He's just doing his daily grind, and doesn't have any goals beyond that. No taking over the city, not revenge...just trying to earn some paper. He'd be perfectly happy coexisting with Spider-Man if he'd just leave him be.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Shocker's mentality has always been that he's a career criminal, emphasis on career. He's just doing his daily grind, and doesn't have any goals beyond that. No taking over the city, not revenge...just trying to earn some paper. He'd be perfectly happy coexisting with Spider-Man if he'd just leave him be.

I think with a character as old as Shocker, it's hard to make a truly definitive statement regarding the characterization/motivations/mentality of said character... I think Shocker has often been presented like this, but there are also plenty of exceptions to that rule, both in- and out-of 616 mainstream continuity.

 

[Oscorp]

Shocker's mentality has always been that he's a career criminal, emphasis on career. He's just doing his daily grind, and doesn't have any goals beyond that. No taking over the city, not revenge...just trying to earn some paper. He'd be perfectly happy coexisting with Spider-Man if he'd just leave him be.

That's the version of Shocker I like the most.

 

[The Overlord]

Shocker's mentality has always been that he's a career criminal, emphasis on career. He's just doing his daily grind, and doesn't have any goals beyond that. No taking over the city, not revenge...just trying to earn some paper. He'd be perfectly happy coexisting with Spider-Man if he'd just leave him be.

See people keep saying Shocker is professional, but what does that mean?

Does that mean Shocker has a personal code of ethics and has lines he will not cross or is he just some amoral scum bag who will do any evil thing he can, just make some money?

The problem is, Shocker has never gotten a real character spot light story, so in most of the stories he appears in, he is more of an archetype then a character (when he doesn't come as a joke).

I think the best use for the Shocker is *not* as an ally of the main villain, or particularly involved in the main plot. He's a side villain, somebody who is a recurring obstacle for Spider-man. When Peter is distracted from getting to school on time stopping a bank robbery, it was Shocker robbing the place. When he's trying to go on a date, its Shocker who knocks over an armored car across the street. Etc.

As such, its less important what Shocker's motives or ideals are, and more important what his personality and style are. It needs to be something catchy, that plays off of Spider-man well. "Calm, collected professional, versus constant snarking wise-cracker", for example.

I think that would work better for a TV show then a movie, in a show you can him have show up now and again and ruin Peter's social life during a season, but in movie, having an unconnected villain randomly ruin Spidey's social life and serve no greater purpose, would lead to a disjointed and less cohesive film. With film you only have 2 hours to tell a story, in that context, Shocker would have to be a henchman for the main villain or an action scene at the beginning of the film, like those James Bond openings, having him show up randomly and add nothing to the plot in the film, wouldn't work.

 

[ernesth100]

Shocker is very simple. Thug. Thats literally it.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Agreed. He never advance more than that.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I really don't get the argument of people who say everything has to be connected to the main story. Spidey fights all manner of thugs, powered and non, every day. That's just a part of his life.

 

[The Infernal]

It doesn't need to be, but it can often make things more simple and keep the flow of the movie going. You don't necessarily want people to feel like there are too many subplots when you're juggling Spider-man with Peter's home life and supporting characters.

 

[zeptron]

As already stated, Shocker has pretty much always been a petty criminal that never had a grand scheme or anything. I mean in Spider-man TAS, his role was nothing more than being a henchman for Kingpin or to complete the "Sinister" Six since they couldn't use Sandman and Electro.

 

[Talion]

I find the wording of this title so so SO outdated and unfortunate. Like you already know all the plot beats and how things will go down and what the big boss (not a hint for Tombstone, Norman or Kingpin here) is, there is this side crooks and then the main boss. Marvel Studios films aren't videogames. They don't follow things like Ninja Turtles formula or even old Spider-Man movies for that matter. Spider-Man: Homecoming, this isn't TASM2. This isn't the old Raimi's movies either either. We are in 2016, this movie will be released in 2017/. Do you see Donald Pierce as a side villain? Or Winter Soldier? Or Hydra agents? Or Crossbones? Or Helmut Zemo? Because I just don't understand this train of thought.

 

[The Overlord]

Shocker is very simple. Thug. Thats literally it.

If that's the case, maybe he should just have no characterization in the films and be there just for fight scenes, nothing wrong with that if he is not the main villain.

This why I don't like Shocker very much in the comics, its hard for me to find a reoccurring villain engaging if he is about as developed as some random mugger Spidey foils, I think if a villain is going to be reoccurring, there should be more to them then that. Its the same problem I have with Carnage, there is nothing to the character and he does the same thing over and over again, nothing about him is engaging.

Shocker as a petty criminal isn't even unique in the Spider verse, characters like Vulture, Electro and Rhino are often written as career criminals who want a big score, sure maybe Vulture and Eelctro are more interested in revenge against Spidey then Shocker is, but often are they plotting revenge against Spidey vs. just committing crimes to become rich.

Captain Cold is a way better 'career criminal" villain then Shocker is, because he has a defined personality.

I really don't get the argument of people who say everything has to be connected to the main story. Spidey fights all manner of thugs, powered and non, every day. That's just a part of his life.

But movies are not comics, if you are going spend a lot of money to make Shocker work for the movies, the film makers want some bang for their bucks.

I also think from a film making standpoint, Shocker showing up randomly and serving no purpose, could throw off the pacing of the film and audiences could just become bored with it, especially if Shocker has no characterization. If Shocker is not working for Vulture, have him show up at the beginning for some James Bond teaser action scene and we never see him for the rest of the film. That doesn't take too much time away from more important story elements, but still provides a fun action scene at the beginning and works if Shocker doesn't have any characterization to speak of.


I also think Shocker and Vulture fighting Spidey at the same time, makes for a better physical threat then Spidey taking on these second stringers one at a time.

 

[The Infernal]

As already stated, Shocker has pretty much always been a petty criminal that never had a grand scheme or anything. I mean in Spider-man TAS, his role was nothing more than being a henchman for Kingpin or to complete the "Sinister" Six since they couldn't use Sandman and Electro.

Who both are similar to Shocker in that they are straightforward villains driven by their own self interest without a grandiose take over the world scheme.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I think Shocker will be like Scarecrow whereas Vulture will be Ras Al Ghul and Tinkerer Carmine Falcone. Or Shocker is Two-Face, Tinkerer is Maroni, and Vulture is Joker.

In other words, main villain, secondary villain and supplier or lower-tier villain with limited screen time. Unless, of course, it's Vulture main and Tinkerer is bumped up to the secondary villain then, yes, Shocker will just be the added muscle or the lower-tier villain that is expendable ala Crossbones.

 

[Arachnerd]

God I hope not entirely. Scarecrow got the short end of the stick at the end of Batman Begins, not to mention the whole Nolan trilogy.

 

[Village_Idiot]

Shocker in Spider-man Homecoming will probably equal Crosssbones in Captain America Civil War