The Simpsons to drop Apu from the show

[jmc]

As a suggestion... find the documentary and watch it. Media does have effects intentional or not on society at large. I am not saying I think Apu should be removed and honestly if one read the article posted there's no confirmation he is. But I think it's better to actually engage with the issues some Indian Americans have before so blithely dismissing their concerns out of hand. Really watch the documentary as it's an honest grappling with how stereotypes play out in the culture and affect people. I don't even agree with call the creators conclusions but it made me more aware of a viewpoint and experience I am unfamiliar with. Concluding that everytime these issues come up is just a case of thin skinned sour grapes is shortsighted in my view especially if you haven't actually bothered to hear what others have an issue with precisely.

I haven't seen the documentary but I've read and seen enough discussion about stereotypes in general to know that the level of harmfulness they cause is overblown on a wide scale. I'm not unsympathetic to people's feelings or those who grew up bullied by schoolmates, but bigoted people will continue to exist whether Apu is on TV or not, so the better option is encourage people to ignore that **** and make the changes they want. My main issue about this hole thing isn't even really about Apu, it's about people who aren't talent enough demanding talented people conform to their view of the world. There's no excuses anymore for people not to create what they want, the tools and resources are widely available and the internet gives an opportunity to showcase yourself. If you think you can do better then go out there and do it, have some confidence, find the right people, band together and create something you love.

 

[Manasrepublic]

As someone with some south asian descent I don’t find Apu offensive really. I would just rather a south asian play him lol. Simpsons makes fun of all kinds of cultural stereotypes and countries from the UK to India to Australia so I was never really bothered. One could make an argument that the character of Rajesh in Big Bang (crap show btw) is even more ‘damaging’ in terms of male Indian stereotypes — out of shape perverted skirt chasing nerdy wannabe cool guy. The guy’s acting on that show is genuinely horrible too. At least Simpsons has shown Apu in a positive light several times both culturally in terms of hard work and as a family man.

 

[Lantern Venom]

As someone with some south asian descent I don’t find Apu offensive really. I would just rather a south asian play him lol. Simpsons makes fun of all kinds of cultural stereotypes and countries from the UK to India to Australia so I was never really bothered.

From some of the quotes that I've read from people of Indian heritage, Apu isn't wholly offensive as much as his continued connection to the Quik-E-Mart is. They feel that the character hasn't advanced or changed over the 30+ years of the Simpsons. I hadn't thought about it that way, so possibly giving him an overhaul might rectify the problem.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I haven't seen the documentary but I've read and seen enough discussion about stereotypes in general to know that the level of harmfulness they cause is overblown on a wide scale. I'm not unsympathetic to people's feelings or those who grew up bullied by schoolmates, but bigoted people will continue to exist whether Apu is on TV or not, so the better option is encourage people to ignore that **** and make the changes they want. My main issue about this hole thing isn't even really about Apu, it's about people who aren't talent enough demanding talented people conform to their view of the world. There's no excuses anymore for people not to create what they want, the tools and resources are widely available and the internet gives an opportunity to showcase yourself. If you think you can do better then go out there and do it, have some confidence, find the right people, band together and create something you love.

You'll forgive me but... That sounds exactly like blithely dismissing an individual or groups' concerns on an issue without learning what they find problematic while claiming to not need to find out it in the first place and placing your assumptions as more legitimate about their intentions, again, all while not having bothered to even hear their side in the first place.

Once more, I don't necessarily agree with all their conclusions but I've watched the documentary and it's not some "SJW" screed, it's quite heartfelt, in indeed is a window into a community I'm not a part of.

I also think... Art, especially things intended as mass entertainment done with corporate backing, doesn't exist in a vacuum. Audience reaction does play a part and that goes beyond the simple facts of the economic realities of the marketplace. Acting like considering the outcry from segments of the audience is some grand crime is looking for purity where it's never been. I mean... Look at the Battlestar re-boot. They had a gender swap of a main character and I'm sure that was done to include more women in the cast. There was likely a consideration of representation in the planning stages. That's a case of decisions made before the product is unveiled. Other times there's decisions made in the middle of production. The controversies that led to the departure of Roseanne Barr recently come to mind, and I suppose James Gunn too, though those had less to do with the content of products I suppose. Still corporate entertainment is kind of a two way street, especially today. And... This is still done via "choice". If a corporate entity decides to take something that they view as public outcry into consideration... they can make that choice. Just as the corporate overlords make choices that take into account the public all the time, just as they did before the age of social media. One can be angry about "the SJWs" all one wants but let's not even begin to act as though these corporations could choose to ignore what they wished to. This isn't the government mandating change, it's businesses deciding what feedback they are getting on their product.

Again... I'm not particularly invested in getting rid of Apu. I see the argument about him actually being a funny character that's actually a comparatively positive role model on the Simpsons... Comparatively since let's be honest they often depict him as being underhanded in his business practices, but then everyone has some issue on the show. But you know what... That argument, that "the show tackles everyone, so nobody has a right to complain" doesn't hold as much water as many think. I understand that the show creators have a right to do whatever they want but you know... Members of the audience have the right to voice their opinion on said product and when a product has far reaching impact and the longevity of The Simpsons I don't think we should cavalierly dismiss segments of the audience's issues with a character that traffics in stereotype, especially someone isn't even going to bother listening to the particulars of the group being stereotyped's issues with the product being put out there.

 

[Flash525]

Political Correctness gone stupid. It's a character from a fictional show. People need to lighten the hell up.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Indians are marked by too many unfair jokes and comments, I can see why they wouldn't want something to be an attempt at representing them, even when the member representing something from their country is one of the most rational in a cast full of joke characters and stereotypes.

 

[Lilbaz]

An indian mp commentated on this. He said that apu wasn't racist it was that middle class indians living in america were ashamed of working class indians in america. That they didn't want to be associated with the taxi drivers and store owners etc... or indians with accents.

 

[terry78]

I mean, when it comes to Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern or Latino characters, tv shows and movies tend to either make them out to have broken as **** English or make them, and I'll just be blunt, like white people. It's a weird paradigm. With Apu though, he sometimes get sucked into Homer's antics, but he's more often the voice of reason.

 

[Greens]

Indians are marked by too many unfair jokes and comments, I can see why they wouldn't want something to be an attempt at representing them, even when the member representing something from their country is one of the most rational in a cast full of joke characters and stereotypes.

Are they? I honestly don't see too many jokes about Indians, and when I see them a lot of the time it's Indians poking fun at themselves.

 

[Aximili86]

Not sure what to make of this, but Shankar does seem to have had contact with people within the show, could be legit.

Definitely a big backflip from their original (justified) "**** you" response with that prior episode though. It'll be disappointing if they cave to the whiners.

Look, every character on The Simpsons is an exaggerated, yep - offensive - stereotype. It's kind of the point. Hell, the wasp-y blue-collar white family it follows bear the brunt of it. Who cares? It's comedy. If Apu's off limits, the Scottish people get to make the same case over Willie, Italians sure as hell do over Luigi and the mob guys, homosexuals do over the walking-stereotype gay dudes. Let's not even get started on Krusty. The foreign episodes, which are pretty much 20 minute cultural stereotype roasts.

If you're offended by this stuff, you've got issues. It's kind of that simple. Like, how do you even function day-to-day if something like that gets you so worked up? You're paralyzed.

Like, what's the difference? Apu's brown? Nobody's getting militant over Dr Hibbert and his stereotypical Bill Cosby voice/demeanor, nobody gives a crap about Dr Nick and his shoddy-eastern-european-hack portrayal. If you really wanted to, you could make a scene over any of this.

Ri-goddamn-diculous. I so hope they show some backbone here, the only way this ends is when people push back on it.

Yeah, Hari's probably been called "Apu" by an a$$hole or two (or five) over the years. Same way someone mentions they're Scottish and some American jackass is going to start spurting Willie lines, or some American's overseas and the locals basically have Homer behavior as reference point. Nobody cares, suck it up. Live your life.


EDIT: Apu's also among the smartest, most competent, least-ridiculous people on the damn show.

 

[Iceman]

Shame about Apu. I loved the guy.

 

[Greens]

If you're offended by this stuff, you've got issues. It's kind of that simple. Like, how do you even function day-to-day if something like that gets you so worked up? You're paralyzed.

Can't disagree here. With some of these things I wonder what the hell these offended parties do all day. Sometimes "get a grip" is all you can say.

 

[NHawk19]

The entire show is a caricature of modern society, and pop culture. Apu is a part of that. What's next people offended because a safety officer at a nuke plant doesn't take his job seriously?

An indian mp commentated on this. He said that apu wasn't racist it was that middle class indians living in america were ashamed of working class indians in america. That they didn't want to be associated with the taxi drivers and store owners etc... or indians with accents.

If this is true then there's a solution. Introduce the middle class, and show a representative caricature between the interactions between the working and middle class. Perhaps even bring in a different family to expand the roster. Don't simply ignore the working class.

 

[DarkKnight88]

Great Simpsons ended at Season 9 anyway so I’ll always have my classic Simpsons untouched. Don’t really care what happens now.

 

[chamber-music]

Scottish Comedian Danny Bohy is of Indian ancestry and used to do a bit about the simpsons. He said "they don't know what to do with a Scottish Indian overseas. I'd be two very separate characters on The Simpsons."

 

[Mad Ones]

Stereotypes, pop culture, and representation go together to make life extra crappy for some people. Indians face discrimination in America, which is reinforced by Apu who is probably the only Indian fictional character most white families can name. The Simpsons doesn't exist in a bubble like most posters here think all media is produced in. Maybe listen to people who are affected rather than being anonymous message board bullies who wouldn't tell an Indian to their face that they're pathetic because they have problems with Apu.

 

[Greens]

Stereotypes, pop culture, and representation go together to make life extra crappy for some people. Indians face discrimination in America, which is reinforced by Apu who is probably the only Indian fictional character most white families can name. The Simpsons doesn't exist in a bubble like most posters here think all media is produced in. Maybe listen to people who are affected rather than being anonymous message board bullies who wouldn't tell an Indian to their face that they're pathetic because they have problems with Apu.

That's always a good defense... "you wouldn't say x to someone's face" because everything you say here you would say in real life. I struggle to think how a character on a show that lost its relevance 20 years ago is making life difficult for people every day. Is there a concrete movement behind this, or is it just the documentary that came out? Because there have been some good counters to that documentary. What about the massive amount of Indians who aren't offended? Should the vocal minority win every time?

 

[Mad Ones]

On a fan message board dedicated to characters that are important to people, it's so interesting and telling when the "fictional characters don't matter" argument comes out.

Show me one instance of people saying Apu is the only thing creating a culture of discrimination in North America. Apu certainly contributes, so why not address these things? I remember white kids in my high school saying "welcome to the kwik e mart" in a fake Indian accent as a joke all the time. It was normal.

 

[Greens]

On a fan message board dedicated to characters that are important to people, it's so interesting and telling when the "fictional characters don't matter" argument comes out.

Show me one instance of people saying Apu is the only thing creating a culture of discrimination in North America. Apu certainly contributes, so why not address these things? I remember white kids in my high school saying "welcome to the kwik e mart" in a fake Indian accent as a joke all the time. It was normal.

Sounds to me that if those white kids were actively using that to bully Indians they needed a talking to. I don't think that responsibility falls on the shoulders of The Simpsons.

 

[Aximili86]

Stereotypes, pop culture, and representation go together to make life extra crappy for some people. Indians face discrimination in America, which is reinforced by Apu who is probably the only Indian fictional character most white families can name. The Simpsons doesn't exist in a bubble like most posters here think all media is produced in. Maybe listen to people who are affected rather than being anonymous message board bullies who wouldn't tell an Indian to their face that they're pathetic because they have problems with Apu.

Ah, patronizing. That's a way to persuade!

Look, even if you buy into the conceit that Apu's somehow more offensive/negative than Krusty or Luigi or Cookie Kwan or Akira or Willie or Cletus (he's so not), the answer is more positive portrayals of Indians, not getting all "raaah rabble rabble rabble!" on a basically-pretty-innocuous character that's been around for close to 30 years and only became a problem when the hilariously-sensitive generation came of age.

That old chestnut of "just because you're offended doesn't make you right" applies. If you're going to start down the "no hurtful stereotypes!" with the Simpsons of all things, you're not going to have a show. The South Park creed is on-point here, "it's all okay or none of it is". Especially given Apu's usually portrayed as being the reasonable rational intelligent guy juxtaposed with someone else's buffoonery. The character running a convenience store in and of itself doesn't equate to "kill it with fire". Guys like Hari can be offended, that's their prerogative. It just doesn't necessarily mean his point is sound.

Also, there have been positive "brown people" portrayals on the show over the years, the one with Bashir the Jordanian kid is coming to mind. Levelling this type of charge at The Simpsons is pretty lame, they're clearly a pretty progressive-leaning show. That doesn't mean they can't have fun with a particular group, they sure as hell do it with everyone else. And along racial stereotype lines to boot.

 

[Mad Ones]

Do you really think the rates of violence against Scots are similar to the rates of violence against Indians in America? How about the difference in life opportunities a white Scot will have in America compared to a brown Indian? Compare the amount of Scottish characters that lovingly circulate American popular culture to Indian characters.

 

[Aximili86]

What are the hate crime rates against Indians in America as compared & contrasted with others? If we want to start down that road, any group that happens to be higher in those stats is pretty much beyond anyone ever touching in a comedy sense, right?

It's one thing for Scots, sure. Jews, the Chinese, gays though? Methinks this tack doesn't pan out.

 

[Mad Ones]

What are the hate crime rates against Indians in America as compared & contrasted with others? If we want to start down that road, any group that happens to be higher in those stats is pretty much beyond anyone ever touching in a comedy sense, right?

If you think and support the idea that our media and comedy is/should be produced only by white people, than ya characters from marginalized populations should be off limits. That isn't the case because more people and voices in the room prevents this power dynamic. It isn't 1989 anymore. The whole point of this conversation is to have more Indian creatives writing and acting more Indian characters.

Apu is Michael Scott in "Diversity Day" and most of the people are defending him because he makes you laugh.

 

[Aximili86]

Alrighty then. So The Simpsons and any comparable show don't get to feature minorities at all anymore unless they're written by someone of the exact specific ethnicity.

Glad we've established that. Quotas, that breeds t3h funnyz.

The irony here is, Groening and pretty much every writer the show's ever had are pretty intensely progressive people. But it's never enough, is the lesson. There's always going to be someone out there calling for the absolute squashing of anything amusing that in any way shape or form is even remotely...not even at their expense, but on factors others observe.

Hope you'll be out there calling for Cookie Kwan and Akira to never show up again, or at least no longer be aggressive real-estate agents and restaurateurs. Any further Krusty material's gotta be written by one of the Chosen People. Cletus, you'd sure-as-**** better have an Appalachian writing that, and no more moonshine-and-incest cracks. No straight people permitted to write Smithers dialogue, gay people have had a tough time historically!

No more Simpsons-visiting-_____-country gimmicks, unless any incidental local guest characters are written by someone actually from there.

Jesus Christ. It's like George Carlin and stuff never existed to point out how ridiculous this train of thinking is. Offense isn't gospel. Some members of these groups are going to be offended by the characters, and plenty aren't. You don't just default 'they made the accusation, they must be right!'. If any Jew's ever raised concerns over Krusty, homosexuals over Smithers, Japanese dudes over Akira, hillbillies over Cletus, it's never gained any traction.

As Craig Ferguson would say, on the joys of mocking Canadians: "They're cool about it, they've realized this wonderful reality that IT'S A ****ING JOKE!"

 

[Mad Ones]

You're putting a lot of effort into ignoring and defending power dynamics that harm people. A bunch of white writers writing stereotypes of people in marginalized communities used to be an unquestioned norm and look at the racism and violence in America today. Americans mocking Canadians isn't a big deal to Canadians because the quality of life of Canadians isn't affected by it. It would be affected if that mockery was coupled with the economic and political subjugation of Canadians like it is for black and brown peoples.

Is Smithers the only queer character that American families know of? No, there are other role models and popular characters. When Apu is all you have growing up, that's a problem. When Apu is the one character reflecting and refracting the image of Indians in America, that's a problem.