Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[2kt09]

Here's another question: is there anything in particular they took as inspiration/influence from the USM cartoon? I'm hearing this one thrown around too.

I mean something specific to that cartoon. Someone mentoring Peter isn't something exclusively from the cartoon, since a) it's happening here for different reasons and b) the idea existed in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics.

It's the same movie reasons posited that we've formulated.
Difference being the cartoon mentor is Nick Fury. Shield provided the plethora of Spidey tech & other resources.

 

[Shikamaru]

It's the same movie reasons posited that we've formulated.
Difference being the cartoon mentor is Nick Fury. Shield provided the plethora of Spidey tech & other resources.

First, the idea of SHIELD and the Avengers mentoring Spider-Man didn't originate in the cartoon. It came from Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man. The cartoon just put it on steroids (plus it's not even well executed).

Second, there's a difference between the film being like the cartoon, and it taking inspiration from the cartoon.

From what we can tell, the reasons they went this route in the movie are entirely corporate based - Spidey needs to prove himself as a moneymaker again, and the best way from a shareholder's POV is to reboot him via Tony.

Whereas with the cartoon, Loeb and Quesada were given a blank canvas and essentially did whatever they wanted with it.

 

[Nardz937]

Oh, Christ - she's taking a selfie getting saved by Spider-Man. I'm sick of how "modern and hipster for the kiddies" this movie is going to be already.

 

[marvelrobbins]

First, the idea of SHIELD and the Avengers mentoring Spider-Man didn't originate in the cartoon. It came from Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man. The cartoon just put it on steroids (plus it's not even well executed).

Second, there's a difference between the film being like the cartoon, and it taking inspiration from the cartoon.

From what we can tell, the reasons they went this route in the movie are entirely corporate based - Spidey needs to prove himself as a moneymaker again, and the best way from a shareholder's POV is to reboot him via Tony.

Whereas with the cartoon, Loeb and Quesada were given a blank canvas and essentially did whatever they wanted with it.

it's dumb ass decsion.focus on making better spider-man film than amzinf apider-man 2 not turning spider-man into stark's sidekick.i don't know what feige was thinking.he and marvel have creative control.rothman at sony is finacing film.i seriously doudt sony is saying much to feige on context of film since in past feige has sounded like marvel has lots of control over homecoming.feige and marvel will have to own any critism people have over
homecoming.yeah sony is doing same **** like with asm2 and showing entire film before release and that is the problem.it shows some who are skeptical of homecoming have reason to be.

 

[Bearzooka]

Oh, Christ - she's taking a selfie getting saved by Spider-Man. I'm sick of how "modern and hipster for the kiddies" this movie is going to be already.

Agreed. Marvel films in general are really dating themselves (Dr. Strange Beyonce jokes, Iron Man myspace line, etc.) It's stupid to think that you have to include flavor of the week pop culture references to interest younger viewers when your characters do that by themselves.

 

[Herofan]

But we looked past it when the Webb movies skipped over the bugle. Right?

To me Peter not retrieving his camera and not taking the pictures to the Bugle was very disappointing; George being the big critic felt like change for the sake of change.

 

[harryoscop]

Which is small potatos compared to Homecoming which has actually taken two characters who are synonymous with & born out of the Daily Bugle & reinevented them & completely excluded them from the Bugle.


And Flint-- Peter stil worked for Jameson. He was emailing him photos of Spider-Man he had taken. They even found a way to have Jameson yell at Peter & hate Spider-Man at the same time through the email

 

[ironwez20]

Which is small potatos compared to Homecoming which has actually taken two characters who are synonymous with & born out of the Daily Bugle & reinevented them & completely excluded them from the Bugle.


And Flint-- Peter stil worked for Jameson. He was emailing him photos of Spider-Man he had taken. They even found a way to have Jameson yell at Peter & hate Spider-Man at the same time through the email

That was half assed and you know it. I rolled my eyes in the theater . Hopefully this spiderman works for the bugle and doesn't just email them . Talk about lazy.

 

[2kt09]

First, the idea of SHIELD and the Avengers mentoring Spider-Man didn't originate in the cartoon. It came from Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man. The cartoon just put it on steroids (plus it's not even well executed).

Second, there's a difference between the film being like the cartoon, and it taking inspiration from the cartoon.

From what we can tell, the reasons they went this route in the movie are entirely corporate based - Spidey needs to prove himself as a moneymaker again, and the best way from a shareholder's POV is to reboot him via Tony.

Whereas with the cartoon, Loeb and Quesada were given a blank canvas and essentially did whatever they wanted with it.

I'm reading the wiki vers and he apparently didn't join Shield in the comics that early on...or at all (you can correct me if I'm mistaken). Fury just told him that when he came of age, Shield will be forced to recruit him. He ends up joining the Avengers, but this is the Avengers that's been now detached from Shield.

I was referring to in-universe reasons, not studio/producer politics.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Oh, Christ - she's taking a selfie getting saved by Spider-Man. I'm sick of how "modern and hipster for the kiddies" this movie is going to be already.

Yeah, just like Macy Gray cameoing in SM1

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Or getting pictures of Julia Roberts in a thong. Or selling the Spidey suit on ebay.

How dare they make pop culture references

 

[PeterBenParker]

Except the pop culture references will inevitably add age, as proven by some of Raimi's references. As will be proven by Webb's and Watts'.

They gotta have 'em, I guess, but I'd rather they not.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

I'd rather the movies be completely ageless as well, but they are a product of their time. GOTG has already irreversibly places the entire MCU in a strict timeframe so there's no reason to pretend they aren't. We don't even know how long the MCU/Marvel Studios/the success of CBMs will last, so let's enjoy the golden age we are in.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'm reading the wiki vers and he apparently didn't join Shield in the comics that early on...or at all (you can correct me if I'm mistaken). Fury just told him that when he came of age, Shield will be forced to recruit him. He ends up joining the Avengers, but this is the Avengers that's been now detached from Shield.

I was referring to in-universe reasons, not studio/producer politics.

The same is true of the Avengers here, so if anything it's more like the book.

Studio/producer politics are what determine intent in the first place. We can't say a film was inspired by a cartoon if the intent wasn't based off the cartoon.

 

[2kt09]

The same is true of the Avengers here, so if anything it's more like the book.

Studio/producer politics are what determine intent in the first place. We can't say a film was inspired by a cartoon if the intent wasn't based off the cartoon.

I'm assuming what I've said is as was done in the comics, meaning he doesn't get the Spidey tech nor learning responsibility/independence in that way. That's more of a Miles and animated USM Parker thing.

That cartoon is the most recent and longest running adaption of the character.
It's also something Disney & Marvel own in its entirety.
When Sony relinquished their share of merchandising for this deal, you can pretty much understand which properties the studios were leaning to emulating/taking inspiration from for this reboot.

 

[harryoscop]

"Overachieving" means doing better than expected. Sounds like he's saying Peter Parker's luck wouldn't land him a job at the Bugle as a high school kid. I don't agree with it myself, but it's not "disrespecting the source material".

It's "dismissing" the source material, like it's no good. Even though their reasoning makes NO sense.

Let's face it, the real reason the Bugle isn't in this is to differentiate it from the other films. Another reason is to focus on the other aspects of the film they clearly put more attention on (again, going back to the main reason). Lastly there's not much incentive for Peter to support his aunt when Tony's helping you out - who, again, might not be there after Homecoming.

May apparently doesn't even like Stark even though she seemed to love him in Civil War so that's another continuity error.

That's actually a very Spider-Man thing. Peter still used his powers irresponsibly in most high school versions. He learned the message, but it doesn't mean you'll perfectly and immediately put it to use in practice. The same is true of this Peter (and yes, we know from Civil War he already heard/learned the message).

Like when? When did Spider-Man endanger hundreds of lives trying to impress his mentor? When did he have to be given/learn another variation of the "Great Power" speech/lesson from another character besides Uncle Ben? Never. "What if somebody had died today? Different story, right? 'Cause that's on you!" Ugh, that's basically the entire basis of Ben's death.

I don't know what "magnet science school" means relative to the other students. I know plenty of "magnet schools" that are actually schools within bigger schools and where the other students outnumber the "magnet students".

But even if what you're saying is true, that's no more "disrespecting the source material" than other changes from plenty of other films. Changes like this occur all the damn time. I can say I'm not a fan of it, but it doesn't mean he's "disrespecting the source material".

Yes it does when he ruins the supporting cast by turning everyone into science geniuses. Flash Thompson is a casualty of this change & Watts' dumb reasoning that bullies can't be jocks anymore or that bullies aren't even really bullies (since Flash isn't a bully as described by Holland). The supporting cast is terrible in this movie for endless other reasons as well.

This is meaningless. He's basically saying "how could an indoor sheltered dude like Ditko create this fun wacky world?" It's a commentary on how isolated Ditko was to everyone else, even to other Marvel creators.

Fair enough. I read it as Carroll making fun of Ditko.

To me "disrespecting the source material" is something that looks down on the source material with a smug/elitist attitude. Zack Snyder saying he "made Superman grow up" is disrespecting the source material. None of the things you listed count as that. You can disagree with them, I kinda do too, but that's different from what you're saying.

But my point was they're dismissive of the source material. Snyder may have been dismissive of classic Superman's personality but you can't deny Man of Steel in general was more faithful to the comics & more true to Superman's mythos than Homecoming. He got wayyy more things right. Almost everything around this Spider-Man is wrong. They didn't even try with adapting hardly anything right.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Bright spot of sorts, anyone read this interview from Fandango? It shows we may be seeing Peter teach Tony a thing or two as well, which would be welcome.

Fandango: Is this a version of Tony Stark that we haven’t seen yet?

Watts: Absolutely. You have to think about the implications of what he did in Civil War, which is to pluck this 15-year-old kid our of obscurity and bring him to Germany to embark on this insane adventure. And then he just drops him off at the end of it while he continues his part of the story. There’s a lot of repercussions to that. Is it the first step towards Tony as some sort of mentor figure? Is he comfortable with that? Has he ever seen himself as that? Or is he the one who’s needed the mentoring along the way? I think it’s a really interesting facet of Tony Stark’s personality that we get to explore in his relationship with Peter.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I'm assuming what I've said is as was done in the comics, meaning he doesn't get the Spidey tech nor learning responsibility/independence in that way. That's more of a Miles and animated USM Parker thing.

That cartoon is the most recent and longest running adaption of the character.
It's also something Disney & Marvel own in its entirety.
When Sony relinquished their share of merchandising for this deal, you can pretty much understand which properties the studios were leaning to emulating/taking inspiration from for this reboot.

Well said.

 

[Nardz937]

It was pretty irresponsible of Stark to peer pressure and drag a 15 year-old kid into fighting a large group of the most highly skilled and super powered beings on the planet when all the experience he had at that time was dealing with petty thugs.

 

[SpideyJJ]

Bright spot of sorts, anyone read this interview from Fandango? It shows we may be seeing Peter teach Tony a thing or two as well, which would be welcome.

Fandango: Is this a version of Tony Stark that we haven’t seen yet?

Watts: Absolutely. You have to think about the implications of what he did in Civil War, which is to pluck this 15-year-old kid our of obscurity and bring him to Germany to embark on this insane adventure. And then he just drops him off at the end of it while he continues his part of the story. There’s a lot of repercussions to that. Is it the first step towards Tony as some sort of mentor figure? Is he comfortable with that? Has he ever seen himself as that? Or is he the one who’s needed the mentoring along the way? I think it’s a really interesting facet of Tony Stark’s personality that we get to explore in his relationship with Peter.

Pretty interesting. It's not secret that Stark isn't exactly the most ideal mentor to an impressionable teen, plus it was kinda reckless to drag said kid into a battle with a team experienced in dealing with top tier threats (aliens & sentient robots included), so if they're gonna revisit that plot point it's gonna be interesting to see how that particular angle plays out.


And, maybe (this is just me spit balling here), we get a scenario where Tony continuously giving Peter tech becomes detrimental to him as a hero as he begins to rely too much on it rather than his own powers. Probably because Tony feels responsible over Peter's injuries in the Airport battle he decides to arm him as much as possible & keep him away from the big guns to keep him safe ('just stay close to the ground' 'Can't you just be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man?'). Remember that scene where he meets the mother of that promising student that was killed in the Sokovia battle and how badly it affected him? Well Peter himself is a promising student, perhaps Tony recognizes that in him and his guilt immediately pushes him to help him. So maybe Tony is trying to get redemption from inadvertently contributing to the end of one life by heavily investing into another. But, despite his good intentions he ends up smothering him too much and is inadvertently holding Pete back from growing as a hero (could be their arc in the movie. Peter growing into his own hero & Stark stepping back to let him be that hero)

 

[AnneFan]

I hope the film doesn't feel like the vlogging trailer. That trailer went down like a lead balloon for me.

 

[Herofan]

For a half-crazy optimistic prediction, the post-credits scene will have the first appearance of Osborn, Oscorp or the Bugle building (doing so would make sense).

Or getting pictures of Julia Roberts in a thong. Or selling the Spidey suit on ebay.

eBay may be a lesser thing now but still doesn't feel really dated, people could certainly try to sell things online somehow (or at least consider doing so).

 

[jasontodd]

I've watched every trailer, every clip, and every tv spot. All in a desperate and earnest attempt to feel some level of excitement and hype for this movie, and I just can't on anything at all.

I find Tom Holland's performance to be over the top and trying too hard to sound young and naive. So much so that in some cases he's bordering on Disney Channel actors reading kiddish "hip" dialogue in a teen high pitched voice in order to not appear in their 20s or 30s. He also doesn't strike me as someone who has any stress or responsibility on his shoulders. Then there is the constant "I have to prove myself to Stark" and "This movie is all about Peter proving worthy of being an Avenger" nonsense.

The action looks fairly generic and uninspired.

I hate that he goes to a specialty science High school. It defeats the purpose and makes him less relatable as an everyman and makes him less of an outcast and less exceptional among his peers.

I hate that he has a billionaire benefactor with unlimited resources. Again it destroys the relatability of Peter as an everyman and by all accounts removes his independence and autonomy.

I hate that he's scared of heights. I find it completely stupid and unnecessary.

I don't like the YouTube and vlogging elements at all.

I don't like that they created a new character in Michelle and turned an existing 616 character (Ned Leeds) into an original character who has more in common with the Ultimate Spider-Man character (Ganke) than his 616 namesake. I truly dislike the direction they have taken with Flash Thompson.

I have always taken issue with the overtly cheesy cringe worthy dialogue and interactions with civilians in Spider-Man films and this movie looks like more of the same.

It's just all so sad and disappointing for me.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Agree with just about everything.

Only thing I'd disagree on is his dialogue/interaction with the pedestrians. Always liked when they showcased that.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Spoiler

Pretty interesting. It's not secret that Stark isn't exactly the most ideal mentor to an impressionable teen, plus it was kinda reckless to drag said kid into a battle with a team experienced in dealing with top tier threats (aliens & sentient robots included), so if they're gonna revisit that plot point it's gonna be interesting to see how that particular angle plays out.


And, maybe (this is just me spit balling here), we get a scenario where Tony continuously giving Peter tech becomes detrimental to him as a hero as he begins to rely too much on it rather than his own powers. Probably because Tony feels responsible over Peter's injuries in the Airport battle he decides to arm him as much as possible & keep him away from the big guns to keep him safe ('just stay close to the ground' 'Can't you just be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man?'). Remember that scene where he meets the mother of that promising student that was killed in the Sokovia battle and how badly it affected him? Well Peter himself is a promising student, perhaps Tony recognizes that in him and his guilt immediately pushes him to help him. So maybe Tony is trying to get redemption from inadvertently contributing to the end of one life by heavily investing into another. But, despite his good intentions he ends up smothering him too much and is inadvertently holding Pete back from growing as a hero (could be their arc in the movie. Peter growing into his own hero & Stark stepping back to let him be that hero)

: I love it. Be interested to find out if we see something like this!

Agree with just about everything.

Only thing I'd disagree on is his dialogue/interaction with the pedestrians. Always liked when they showcased that.

Same, it showcases why Spidey is the most popular hero in Marvel and one of the top characters EVER. He's down to earth, he's relatable, he's the everyman. Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man!