The Spoilers thread

But I don't think that's something the movie really thinks about, for the character.

I think that's a weak thing to have for the character, but it also doesn't fix my issue with this movie, as is.
But what's your point then? What do you mean by her being "morally whitewashed"?
 
I'm curious if Yelena, Alexei, and Melina survived the Snap. I'm sure we'll get the answer to what happened to Yelena in the time since BW in Hawkeye but if I had to guess I'd say they were all victims of Thanos since it's easier to explain their absence in Endgame that way. If Natasha was trying to find Clint so desperately during that time then there's no way she wouldn't have been just as relentless in her search for her other "family".
 
I don't agree. I prefer Ghost far more over what they did with that character. More time spent with the character as a person, more engagement into her backstory, more seeing her personal relationship. I think the character in BW is mostly an empty shell of a character in comparison, with no real reason to keep her a secret (similar to what I think that Ghost would be) or hide her in male looking body suit for some reason, rather than a needless twist.

You don't agree with something I'm not even talking about. I'm saying that they shouldn't have advertised Hannah John Kamen as being in the movie or that she was even playing Ghost beforehand. Once she took off her mask in the film it could've proceeded exactly the same as it did. And since Ant-Man and the Wasp didn't have any opening credits that wouldn't have given away who was playing Ghost either.

Even if they gave us plenty of characterisation for Taskmaster I still would've liked that they didn't reveal that Olga Kurylenko was playing her just as they did until the actual movie rather than beforehand in any marketing. And I'm saying Marvel should do that for other characters too.
 
You don't agree with something I'm not even talking about. I'm saying that they shouldn't have advertised Hannah John Kamen as being in the movie or that she was even playing Ghost beforehand. Once she took off her mask in the film it could've proceeded exactly the same as it did. And since Ant-Man and the Wasp didn't have any opening credits that wouldn't have given away who was playing Ghost either.

Even if they gave us plenty of characterisation for Taskmaster I still would've liked that they didn't reveal that Olga Kurylenko was playing her just as they did until the actual movie rather than beforehand in any marketing. And I'm saying Marvel should do that for other characters too.
To an extent, they tried something similar to Mysterio in FFH. Most of us knew he was going to be the villain but a lot of the general audience didn't see it coming. I don't like that example though because it didn't really work for me and it makes a rewatch even harder since you're just waiting for the reveal.
 
You don't agree with something I'm not even talking about. I'm saying that they shouldn't have advertised Hannah John Kamen as being in the movie or that she was even playing Ghost beforehand. Once she took off her mask in the film it could've proceeded exactly the same as it did. And since Ant-Man and the Wasp didn't have any opening credits that wouldn't have given away who was playing Ghost either.

Even if they gave us plenty of characterisation for Taskmaster I still would've liked that they didn't reveal that Olga Kurylenko was playing her just as they did until the actual movie rather than beforehand in any marketing. And I'm saying Marvel should do that for other characters too.
I don't think the casting element really mattered, to me.
 
But what's your point then? What do you mean by her being "morally whitewashed"?
That's kinda what I mean. That the movie has the character have a moral high ground over Natasha, while I think it's not really taking much consideration on her actions.
 
Although it was good to have opening credits and music (something I wish they had for other Marvel films as it creates a certain excitement), this is one movie that could've done without it. It kind of gave it away that Olga Kurylenko could've been Taskmaster by featuring her name in the opening credits because she was a name we hadn't seen at all before in association with the movie.

No-one had a clue she was even in this movie. So who else would she be, especially after she hadn't shown up all that time when a good chunk of the movie had already gone by? I knew it was going to be her face that we'd see when Taskmaster's helmet came off.

Or they could've kept her name out of the opening credits and only had her in the end credits.
I don't watch a lot of tv shows or recognize most actors/actresses so had no clue who Olga was or paid attention to the name. In my 2nd viewing I still didn't know if it was Olga or O.T. Fagenbale until I looked at the actual credits.
 
I don't watch a lot of tv shows or recognize most actors/actresses so had no clue who Olga was or paid attention to the name. In my 2nd viewing I still didn't know if it was Olga or O.T. Fagenbale until I looked at the actual credits.

I knew Olga Kurylenko from Quantum of Solace where she was the main Bond girl. Also from Hitman. Any Bond fan would immediately recognise her name which is why I thought she would be Taskmaster as soon as her name popped up.

I would've liked that they didn't show her name in the opening credits so that it would've been a complete surprise when Taskmaster's helmet came off and it was an actress I recognised and that it was a female. I knew Taskmaster would be female throughout the whole film because of her name.
 
The fact that Alexei is still alive when the movie ends means that I hope we see more of him in the future.
He is a successful super soldier so he would be in danger. If the formula is similar to Steve's I would think Hydra or anyone looking to copy it would try to capture and run experiments.
 
Melina mentioned Nat's genetic potential is why she was sought out for the Red Room. Subtle hint of some type of Infinity Formula?

I have no problem with action heroes surviving death-defying stunts but I have to admit that watching Nat fall from the 3-story window, & hitting 2 exterior pipes on the building facade before landing on her feet was pretty over-the-top.
I thought of the machine that Hydra tried to use in Cap 2 to find potential heroes.

The fall was pretty over the top, I assume she kind of shoulder rolled on one and tried to break fall on a couple of other things. She still should have had more damage but she has been taking beatings in other movies.
 
That's kinda what I mean. That the movie has the character have a moral high ground over Natasha, while I think it's not really taking much consideration on her actions.
Huh. I did not get that vibe at all.

And speaking of the cast and the Taskmaster reveal - I love how everyone thought O.T. Fagenbale was Taskmaster because he wasn't in the trailer, but really that was because he was only in the movie for like 6 minutes max.
 
And speaking of the cast and the Taskmaster reveal - I love how everyone thought O.T. Fagenbale was Taskmaster because he wasn't in the trailer, but really that was because he was only in the movie for like 6 minutes max.
Am I missing something?
 
That's kinda what I mean. That the movie has the character have a moral high ground over Natasha, while I think it's not really taking much consideration on her actions.

The only time Yelena was on a "moral high ground" was when she went on about how she doesn't try to be a hero to little girls around the world, like BW became after joining the Avengers. The whole point of that exchange is that they both have the same past, only BW is trying to be a hero now.

But I don't agree that that actually puts Yelena on a moral high ground, or that the movie presented her to be objectively interpreted as such. The point is that Yelena did not really understand and/or appreciate how much Natasha changed or how much effort she'd put in to atone for her past. Yelena was ultimately just being cynical.
 
Anyone else think Taskmaster will lead the freed Widows as some type of mercenaries in the future? Good, neutral or evil?
 
On other notes: If Drekov could make one Taskmaster, why not have more? How did he survive, with seemingly no burns, the bomb?.
I only saw it once but it looked like as a forward observer Natasha never saw her target she targeted his daughter with the assumption that the girl would go to him. And Barton denotated the bomb on that best guess information.

I guess Clint handled the red in his ledger better than Romanoff did.
 
I only saw it once but it looked like as a forward observer Natasha never saw her target she targeted his daughter with the assumption that the girl would go to him. And Barton denotated the bomb on that best guess information.

I guess Clint handled the red in his ledger better than Romanoff did.
Wasn't it said that they didn't find a body? Why didn't they get the daughter's body, as well?
 
Wasn't it said that they didn't find a body? Why didn't they get the daughter's body, as well?
Natasha did say there wasn't any body left to find but that was her assuming the bombing worked and actually took them both out
 
Natasha did say there wasn't any body left to find but that was her assuming the bombing worked and actually took them both out
I think that seems like kinda a dumb thing to assume, for Natasha and SHIELD. If the daughter could survive the explosion, how could it be big enough to make it so there was nothing to find?
 
I think that seems like kinda a dumb thing to assume, for Natasha and SHIELD. If the daughter could survive the explosion, how could it be big enough to make it so there was nothing to find?

Wouldn't it depend entirely on the random chance of how close they happened to be to the bomb when it detonated?

Also there's the factor of the fire burning everything down afterwards.
 
One thing that left me confused is this: was Dreykov still working for the Russian government, or had he become a rogue agent?

The movie makes it clear that the Red Room was originally a Soviet, and later Russian government program, and yet at the end of the movie Dreykov seems to be running his operation without oversight from anyone.

This also ties in with one of my biggest problems with Dreykov as a villain: we don't get a clear enough sense of what his ultimate objective is. I get that he's a misogynistic a*****e who enjoys kidnapping and brainwashing young girls, but to what purpose? He mentions in passing that Natasha betrayed "her people", which certainly indicates he's some kind of Russian nationalist and/or Soviet nostalgist. But aside from that its all just a bit too vague.

If the movie made it clear he was working for the Russians then I'm pretty sure that the movie would've been banned in Russia lol. I just assumed that they are in a not quite official part of the govt status like Shield is more international than beholden to the U.S. govt.
 

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