The Avengers Roll of the Pyms in Avengers

[KangConquers]

So far, Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne have not made an appearance in any Marvel film; things aren't looking very good for their movie to be made before Avengers drops in May 2012. With an avengers roster already basically filled out (Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Nick Fury, Black Widow, War Machine, and a rumored Hawkeye) my best guess is that we're not going to see Giant Man and Wasp in the first Avengers film. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't see the pyms.

What I'd like to see to avoid overcrowding and give two of the Avengers most important characters room to grow in is The Pyms in the movie as plain clothes scientists (or if they want to go the 616 route, just Hank as a plain clothes scientist) then have Pym become Ant-Man (and eventually Giant Man) and Janet become Wasp in The Ant-Man feature film.

This would allow them to not only explore the characters much better than they could by forcing new heroes into Avengers, it would also allow them to maybe start foreshadowing Pyms ventures into cybernetics, which would result in Ultron as the bad guy in Avengers 2.

Since we know for a fact that Marvel plans on an Avengers trilogy (based on Chris Evans contract) we now have less of a desperate situation getting the Pyms in the first movie.

What do you guys think? Should Giant man and Wasp appear in the Avengers? as heroes? as civilians? or not at all?

 

[OptimusPrime114]

^

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[TheWatcher]

They should be Scientists/Shield Agents for the majority of the movie. Then heroes at the end.

 

[Son of Coul]

Only if they have a real role to play. If the script or story calls for some scientists at SHIELD to help out, then by all means make them the Pyms. Without their solo film, they definitely shouldn't be superheros yet, though.

Otherwise, don't shoehorn them in for the sake of fan service. They can mention them by name, but if they don't serve any purpose other than "hey it's the Pyms!" they shouldn't make an appearance. That's what made movies like X3 and SM3 so ******.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I say it depends on what they're planning for the Ant Man solo film. With the concept of the film being about the passing of the torch from Pym to Lang, I'd think Antman would be well established by the time Avengers is made. So it wouldn't make much sense for him to be only a scientist in Avengers. The film seems to be entirely in Wright's ballpark too since there probably aren't many directors lining up to direct an Antman film. I doubt they're going to put too much pressure on Wright to change his concept.

I personally would prefer if Antman was made first and he was made into a founding member of the Avengers. I'm still not sure Avengers is going to keep it's current release date but if it does I'm holding out hope Antman can come out in March 2012 or something. Or maybe they'll have Antman in Avengers and use the film to go back and tell his origins afterword.

 

[Son of Coul]

Ah yeah, I forgot about Wright's concept. I really like it, if that's the case, yeah they can't be scientists in The Avengers. It IS possible for them to have this movie out before The Avengers, but according to Wright they're not rushing it for the Avengers, since that is an afterthought and Ant-Man isn't exactly a big tentpole film for them or anything.

But since they have a couple drafts already done, they can start shooting by the end of the year even, since Wright will be done with Scott Pilgrim and have to choose his next project. BUT if they do that, whoever's playing Pym/Lang/whoever's-under-the-mask would have a VERY tight schedule, doing Ant-Man and Avengers at the same time.

 

[chris moore]

I'd rather the Ant-Man film not be about passing on the torch to Lang. For one it gives us next to no Pym, who although not exactly at Tony Stark level of world recognition is still more likely to be known by the general public enough to generate some minor hype. For another, unless it takes place long after Avengers it would kind of mean that Giant-Man/ Ant Man in Avengers either has to be Lang. Or Pym has become Giant-Man in between his movie and Avengers, and passed on the Ant-Man identity to Lang because he has developed the Giant-Man one.

This removes the need for an origin for the Pyms within the Avengers movie. But only works if the Ant-Man film has come out already.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I think they can be introduced in the Avengers movie as scientists AND heroes, not unlike the Ultimate Avengers animated movie...

 

[Aztec]

I think they can be introduced in the Avengers movie as scientists AND heroes, not unlike the Ultimate Avengers animated movie...

Oh please don't bring up that dreadful film. It started with so much potential and then completely fell on its face. It was a very poor adaptation of The Ultimates IMHO.

As for the Pyms, I have been very vocal of my desires to keep the character count DOWN. KangConquers is spot on here! The whole point of this film is to see how Hulk, Thor, Cap, and Iron Man interact and try to form a team. In addition, you'll have Fury and Widow as SHIELD agents, and perhaps War Machine in some capacity. That's A LOT of characters. I have no issue if the Pyms are introduced briefly as SHIELD scientists, but that should be it for this film. If they decide to make an Ant Man film then they can show their story and perhaps be included in an Avengers 2. How about they are such nerds they totally geek out about the Avengers and they do ANYTHING to try and make themselves superheroes. That fits into that "comedic action" notion that Edgar Wright wants.

Fanboys must learn that in order to make a film where the characters aren't completely 2D, or reduced to cameos, you can't have ALL of your favorite characters. I read too many threads where posters are like: "Vision, Hawkeye, Ant Man, Wasp, Falcon, Ms. Marvel, Cage, Iron Fist, etc. for Avengers!" Well if you really care about the characters being developed you'll have to accept fewer of them.

Hulk
Thor
Iron Man
Captain America
Nick Fury
Black Widow
War Machine (?)

This is PLENTY of main characters for the first film! Heck, even that amount of characters is going to be VERY DIFFICULT to FULLY DEVELOP! Please understand the difference between "fully develop" and "appear in the film"; I fear many of you don't understand this distinction.

That's my two cents, I got vilifyed in another thread for this opinion, but I stand behind it. If you don't believe me watch X-Men 3.

 

[KangConquers]

Oh please don't bring up that dreadful film. It started with so much potential and then completely fell on its face. It was a very poor adaptation of The Ultimates IMHO.

As for the Pyms, I have been very vocal of my desires to keep the character count DOWN. KangConquers is spot on here! The whole point of this film is to see how Hulk, Thor, Cap, and Iron Man interact and try to form a team. In addition, you'll have Fury and Widow as SHIELD agents, and perhaps War Machine in some capacity. That's A LOT of characters. I have no issue if the Pyms are introduced briefly as SHIELD scientists, but that should be it for this film. If they decide to make an Ant Man film then they can show their story and perhaps be included in an Avengers 2. How about they are such nerds they totally geek out about the Avengers and they do ANYTHING to try and make themselves superheroes. That fits into that "comedic action" notion that Edgar Wright wants.

Fanboys must learn that in order to make a film where the characters aren't completely 2D, or reduced to cameos, you can't have ALL of your favorite characters. I read too many threads where posters are like: "Vision, Hawkeye, Ant Man, Wasp, Falcon, Ms. Marvel, Cage, Iron Fist, etc. for Avengers!" Well if you really care about the characters being developed you'll have to accept fewer of them.

Hulk
Thor
Iron Man
Captain America
Nick Fury
Black Widow
War Machine (?)

This is PLENTY of main characters for the first film! Heck, even that amount of characters is going to be VERY DIFFICULT to FULLY DEVELOP! Please understand the difference between "fully develop" and "appear in the film"; I fear many of you don't understand this distinction.

That's my two cents, I got vilifyed in another thread for this opinion, but I stand behind it. If you don't believe me watch X-Men 3.

I would've vastly prefered The Pyms taking the spot Black Widow and War Machine have, but this is where we are right now. We have to work with what we have in the first 5 films of the series.

I would like to see a rotating cast beyond the big 3. Hulk should stomp off just like in the comics ("Hulk no has friends!") and next surface in TIH 2. The S.H.I.E.L.D. element can be downplayed if the Avengers eventually split from S.H.I.E.L.D.

I'd basically like to see Giant Man, Wasp, Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, and Vision eventually make it into an Avengers film; that said with a planned trilogy in the works, we'll have plenty of time to see all of those characters. NO REASON TO STUFF THEM ALL INTO FILM #1.

With Marvel planning an Ant-Man film, and with Hawkeye and Vision films being mentioned in passing, I'm sure that Marvel will find a way to develop the characters and incorporate them into the Avengers movies. But I don't want any X-3 style placeholder characters.

 

[Son of Coul]

I agree, everyone's like "uh well they DID IT IN THE COMICS AND IT WAS FINE!" but these are two totally different mediums. Read the first 60s Avengers. Translated directly, it'd be an awful movie. The characters just start fighting beside each other and at the end go, "Hey let's call ourselves The Avengers" "ok". There's little to no clash of egos or development or interesting interactions at all.

The Ultimate Avengers animated movie had hardly any development for Stark, Thor, or the Pyms beyond "rich loner", "mysterious guy (a god?)", and "arrogant ******* and the foil wife".

People want to stuff a million characters in from the comics but then ***** about X3, XO:W, and SM3 for the same reason. Then when someone tells why you can't do that with this, everyone goes "oh, you just have to balance them" like it's not that hard.

Like I said earlier, the only way you can fit every character in and have it be a good movie is if each character has a role to play in the story. Like, if they do put Hawkeye in, he can't just be introduced as a SHIELD agent, then disappear until it's time to kick ass. That makes his character pointless and one-dimensional. But if they use him as a way to show the disregard a highly-skilled/trained soldier-type of guy would show to an icon like Captain America, blowing him off as a man of the past who can't lead in a modern world- then he's contributing something.

This doesn't mean old characters we know can't just drop by to support the character from their respective movie. Personally, I think Rhodey will have a cameo in it, but not as War Machine. He could just have a discussion with Stark over the phone or something as an audience surrogate to get into Stark's head about this whole initiative, or even just a comic relief moment. That makes sense, but it's something you couldn't do with a new character like Pym or someone, it's just fan service. Have we seriously not learned from our mistakes to ask filmmakers to cram in our favorites?

This thing is a trilogy, be patient...

 

[OB12]

The thing is characters can be developed quite a bit with very little screen time, it just takes good dialogue and actors that can emote well. In my opinion, the Pyms would be best utilized by being introduced briefly in Cap as SHIELD scientists on site helping with the discover, retrieval, and restoration of Cap at the end. We could learn a lot about the Pyms through good writing in this short cameo. We then see them again in the Avengers, with an increased role but not heroes but with some allusions that they will soon be heroes. An Ant-Man movie would then showcase the Pyms in an adventure of their own with the ending of this movie foreshadowing Ultron for an Avengers sequel.

 

[Son of Coul]

^Well yeah, that'd be them actually contributing to the story, so it makes sense and isn't just shoehorning them in. It just has to flow, is the main thing. If they can weave the characters in and make it feel natural, while keeping the characters well-rounded, that's the main thing. And it isn't as simple as it sounds.

Another thing about small screentime is that there'd undoubtedly be a lot of people *****ing about it, saying the characters didn't get the respect they should've.

 

[Aztec]

Another thing about small screentime is that there'd undoubtedly be a lot of people *****ing about it, saying the characters didn't get the respect they should've.

Agreed. Even though they shouldn't have been in the movie in the first place. I just find it so mind-numbing that we are finally going to get to see Hulk, Thor, Cap, and Iron Man on screen TOGETHER and that's not enough for some people. If you care about these characters, you will want to see them developed properly on the big screen.

Isn't the whole point of this film to see just how a viking god, a billionaire tech genius playboy, a WWII era super solider, and a nerdy scientist turned rage monster would get along? Why water those intense relationships down with adding other characters for no other reason than fan service? Have you not seen X3, SM3, or Wolverine? It just doesn't work people!

I also agree with HP that I would prefer Rhodey in a brief cameo role. I really feel that War Machine on the Avengers would be incredibly redundant. Two super flying suit guys on the same team?

Perhaps Rhodey/WM could help Widow and Fury in their SHIELD side adventure while the Big 4 are fighting the climatic battle? Ala Ultimates.

 

[OB12]

^^I don't think it is just about stuffing characters in where they don't belong like some movies have done. The Pym's have a place in this movieverse but their initial appearances should be limited and effective. The thing to remember is the Avengers isn't an isolated movie, they need to plant seeds in the Avengers for things to come, to build new story arcs which will be played out in subsequent Ant-Man and Avenger movies.

 

[chris moore]

I don't think War Machine needs to be, or should be in the Avengers. It increases the roster without actually increasing the power set or visual.

Fury only needs to be in the movie as much as, say, Hawk was in GIJOE.

The Pym's and Hawkeye could be introduced simultaneously. For the sake of argument, let's say Cap thaws at the end of his own movie. While it would be great to have his discovery be the thing that sets up the Avengers movie, it would force an X-Men 1 situation where the bulk of the movie has to deal with his coming to grips with being in the modern day. This isn't something that can be glossed over, so would require a lot of time that an ensemble movie just doesn't have.

The Pym's are in a remote part of South America. Hank is doing research on some pockets of strange energy he detected, which he believes may prove be a natural source of some extra-dimensional particles he has recently synthesised. His work is jointly funded by the government, and Janet Pym's father's company. Their babysitter is S.H.I.E.L.D. agent Clint Barton, callsign: Hawkeye. He hasn't been given this assignment because he's disgraced or anything. But because the nature of the work is too secretive to risk involving too many people, and Hawkeye is so frickin' good that he's better than a whole security team.

Movie starts:
While conducting a monitoring experiment away from the lab in the jungle, Hank discovers this pocket is not what he was looking for and that energy from it is being drawn away from the immediate area, and the three of them trace is back to the source. They discover this to be a group of men conducting experiments on some locals. Hawkeye recognises the leader as Baron Zemo, grandson of the WW2 Nazi war criminal. Hank deduces the experiments are siphoning off what appears to be ionic energy from the energy pockets, and attempting to infuse the locals with it.

Spotted, Zemo's men try to kill them, and Hawkeye easily takes down several before telling Hank and Jan to get back to the transport, reach safety, and bring Fury up to speed. They make it back to the lab, but a few of the bad guys who evaded Clint are right behind.

Inside, Hank realises the firefight risks destabilising the containment field surrounding his newly synthesised Pym particles, and begins trying to disconnect the cylinder. He's right. As Jan manages to hit the panic button to alert S.H.I.E.L.D, a grenade launcher causes a massive explosion that ruptures the containment field, and the Pym particles surge into the room, enveloping Hank and Jan, and everything else in the lab.

Here's the kicker - Hank, wanting to protect Jan reflexively thinks of shielding her with his body. Jan reflexively thinks of hiding. The resultant mental stresses cause the Pym particles infusing Hank's body to shunt mass to him, while they affect Jan in the opposite way, shrinking her. All the inorganics in the room however, simply become unstable and trigger an even bigger explosion that kills the three guys attacking them, and knocks Hank (shielding Jan, but now increasing in mass and durability) unconscious. Hawkeye returns later to find an unconscious Hank lying naked on the jungle floor, with Jan lying on his chest. Except Hank is at least 30ft tall (not his upper limit), and Jan is only a couple inches tall (not her lower limit). Hawkeye (not having a clue what the hell is going on) recovers some comm equipment and tries to get a signal - just as several S.H.I.E.L.D choppers appear above the jungle canopy. Comment from Hawkeye.

The opening credits roll. All this could be done well in about 10 minutes as the fight only needs to begin before Hank and Jan get sent running and we leave Hawkeye to do the rest of his thing offscreen.

Main plot leading on - grandson of Nazi war criminal and master race scientist attempting to create an army of ionic powered soldiers. Cap brought in because of his familiarity with the Zemo's during WW2. Stark, Pym and Banner are unable to identify the energy from Hank's data. But conclude it isn't from Earth and bears no resemblance to the established laws of energy. Fury turns to the only allegedly magical expert he knows; Thor. Eventually the energy turns out to be extra-dimensional in that it originates from one of the nine worlds and Loki has been leaking it through to Midgard in order to provide Zemo with his army which he then hopes to use himself to assault Asgard.

 

[roach]

didnt X2 do the same thing and its considered one of the top comic films???
I say give the Pyms a role much like Colossus role in X2...leave us wanting more

 

[That person]

Ah yeah, I forgot about Wright's concept. I really like it, if that's the case, yeah they can't be scientists in The Avengers. It IS possible for them to have this movie out before The Avengers, but according to Wright they're not rushing it for the Avengers, since that is an afterthought and Ant-Man isn't exactly a big tentpole film for them or anything.

But since they have a couple drafts already done, they can start shooting by the end of the year even, since Wright will be done with Scott Pilgrim and have to choose his next project. BUT if they do that, whoever's playing Pym/Lang/whoever's-under-the-mask would have a VERY tight schedule, doing Ant-Man and Avengers at the same time.

Fingers crossed...

Of course, if this doesn't work, perhaps they could go on a route similar to what Wright hinted the solo film would: Scott Lang steals an apparatus designed by Stark Industries Nanotech expert Hank Pym, and SHIELD assembles the world's superhumans to stop him. Pym could could work on recreating it, and eventually join the team towards the climax The only real problem here would be making Lang formidable enough of a threat that a team would be needed to stop him. Could it be done? Definitely, in the hands of a talented writer. Unfortunately, the current guy is anything but. So, that being said, I also think Chris Moore's idea could work really well if they can't get out a solo film.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I think we should jus focus on the main four. I don't even want War Machine or Black Widow in this. Maybe I'd rather have the latter, but it's four huge characters getting together. That's already one big film in itself.

Pym should only be a scientist. I don't want to see ****ing Ant Man or Giant Man next to the four guys.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I figure once Hulk and possibly Iron Man are out of the way, you can give the Pyms a more prominent role. I don't think they should worry about casting those characters right now and signing them long term if they are just going to end up giving them extended cameo roles. There will have to be a lot of mixing and matching with this franchise. You need viable replacements if RDJ/Norton call it quits after one Avengers movie (which I believe they will), and they probably won't be able to sign big names for the Pyms this minute considering all the other stars. So I'd cast them for the sequel or a solo movie.

 

[Son of Coul]

I don't get the doubting that RDJ won't stick around for the role, he's said he'd do "fifteen movies" as Stark because he loves the character so much and he pretty much owes it to them for breathing life back into his ever-wading career.

 

[OB12]

Yeah, I'm willing to bet that we get Avengers, IM3, and Avengers 2 out of RDJ. Norton is probably a little more skeptical, but if he has a good role in Avengers and gets a good commitment for TIH2, then I could see him sticking around.

 

[KangConquers]

Just a reminder:

Chris Evans is signed for 9 films.
Samuel L Jackson is signed on for 9.
Chris Hemmsworth is signed on for 5.
Sebastian Stan is signed on for 4 or 5.
Robert Downey Jr. is signed on for 2 more after Iron Man 2.
Don Cheodle is signed on for 2 more after Iron Man 2.
Ed Norton isn't signed on.
Scarlet Johansen's number is a mystery to me.

I hope they can get RD Jr to do an Avengers trilogy. I know they can get hemmsworth, since he'd only need to sign on for one more film to do both Thor and Avengers Trilogies. to me (and to many others) the Avengers ARE Cap, Thor and Iron Man.

-Don Cheodle can make an appearance in Avengers and help out in some difficult battle. I'd like to see him be more of a "reserve" avenger.

-I think the Hulk should be in the initial film...he should stomp off at the end, seguing into TIH 2. Despite with the Green Goliath's fans keep pushing, he's not an important avenger, and he has a limited role in the franchise; a team with Hulk and Thor is just too powerful, and ultimately Thor is more important to the team.

- I'm skeptical of how big of a role I want SHIELD to have in the Avengers. I'd like to eventually see the team split from SHIELD which would limit Fury and Widow's roles to more cameos.

- I see Sebastian Stan MAYBE winding up in an avengers film, but it's kind of doubtful. He's got a several film deal, which sort of implies that they plan on eventually using the Winter Soldier/ New Cap angle on the big screen, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll ever be an Avenger.

 

[chris moore]

And anything you'd like to say about the Pym's there? Sticking with the whole thread topic and all...

 

[KangConquers]

And anything you'd like to say about the Pym's there? Sticking with the whole thread topic and all...

...I already wrote 2 paragraphs on the topic? remember...i started the ****ing thing.

But basically to satisfy you and relate that post to the topic...


an Avengers trilogy should have:

Cap, Thor, and Iron Man: In all 3 movies.
The Pyms: in the 2nd and 3rd movies.
and every other character in no more than one movie. I could see putting the SHIELD characters in two, but that's it.