The Walking Dead The Walking Dead Season 6, Episode 13 "The Same Boat" Discussion Thread

[Leenie]

The first episode of the midseason, when Carol killed the Wolf: She definitely regretted killing him when he tried to help Denise AFTER he was shot.

What's happening with Carol right now isn't abrupt ...

 

[Heretic]

So, why is it an issue that Morgan is getting to her? That seems to be the catalyst.

Because most of us hate what they did to Morgan...and now they are doing it to Carol. Again, this is seemingly because this show constantly requires that element. Heck, even Rick had his turn at the "let's deny that we have to kill people" story.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Great episode! Awesome character studies on Carol and Maggie with a super badass ending. Also, great to see Alicia Witt. Good Lord, that woman just gets better with age. She was smoking hot on Justified and she was both vicious and sympathetic here. I almost didn't want her to die, but... it had to happen.

The whole "we are all Negan" thing is interesting. Is that from the comics, or is it something new they're doing in the show?

 

[Heretic]

The first episode of the midseason, when Carol killed the Wolf: She definitely regretted killing him when he tried to help Denise AFTER he was shot.

What's happening with Carol right now isn't abrupt ...

Yeah...after the break...after they devised this new arc for her. It does not predate the return of the show from its most recent break.

 

[Broseph44]

My homegirl right here rocked it this episode

 

[Leenie]

So, why is it an issue that Morgan is getting to her? That seems to be the catalyst.

I still maintain that Morgan is a selfish jerk, but his preaching about how "all life is precious" is a nice sentiment, no? I'm thinking that Carol is wishing that WAS the case; that the post-apocalyptic world DOES have room for compassion.

 

[Great Cthulhu]

And don't forget in the comics Rick

Spoiler

changes his attitude about killing, remember Negan does end up in that cage, even after everything that he does. Which Morgan is apparently building in the TV version of TWD.

 

[Leenie]

Yeah...after the break...after they devised this new arc for her. It does not predate the return of the show from its most recent break.

Yeah no.

This season alone:

-Morgan acknowledging that Carol's putting on a show.

-Carol breaking down after killing the Wolves.

-Carol confronting Morgan in the midseason finale; almost trying to convince herself that she HAD to kill the Wolf.

Plus, you know ... Everything that's happened to Carol during the course of the series.

 

[Great Cthulhu]

I still maintain that Morgan is a selfish jerk, but his preaching about how "all life is precious" is a nice sentiment, no? I'm thinking that Carol is wishing that WAS the case; that the post-apocalyptic world DOES have room for compassion.

Morgan being selfish seems to be a thing. Remember in season 3 "Clear" he says to Rick that he was selfish, that he was weak. And because of that, he paid the price. I think something big is going to happen with Morgans character.

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[Leenie]

Morgan being selfish seems to be a thing. Remember in season 3 "Clear" he says to Rick that he was selfish, that he was weak. And because of that, he paid the price. I think something big is going to happen with Morgans character.

[YT]dbCT4Cx7PeY[/YT]

Morgan is a dude who does not know what middle ground is.

But yeah, you're right; Morgan's actions have been pretty selfish from the beginning.

 

[Heretic]

Yeah no.

This season alone:

-Morgan acknowledging that Carol's putting on a show.

-Carol breaking down after killing the Wolves.

-Carol confronting Morgan in the midseason finale; almost trying to convince herself that she HAD to kill the Wolf.

Plus, you know ... Everything that's happened to Carol during the course of the series.

You got me there. My entire argument hinged on the idea that carol has always been a cold-blooded killer, even before the apocalypse started. /s

Here's the thing...some of us like Carol as the woman who does what needs to be done, even though she doesn't like doing it. The Carol who threatens a kid because she has to...the Carol who mows down an army of Wolves because she has to. Some of us kind of hate the fact that she is now so distraught over the idea of killing that she is dangerously hesitant in doing things she wouldn't have blinked at doing during the previous few seasons.

You want a character conflicted over killing? There's Morgan...and Gabriel...and Rick back at the prison...and Daryl for a few episodes randomly recently...and Eugene...and most of Alexandria. Some of us kind of liked "do what she has to do" Carol.

 

[Broseph44]

You got me there. My entire argument hinged on the idea that carol has always been a cold-blooded killer, even before the apocalypse started. /s

Here's the thing...some of us like Carol as the woman who does what needs to be done, even though she doesn't like doing it. The Carol who threatens a kid because she has to...the Carol who mows down an army of Wolves because she has to. Some of kind of hate the fact that she is now so distraught over the idea of killing that she is dangerously hesitant in doing things she wouldn't have blinked at doing during the previous few seasons.

You want a character conflicted over killing? There's Morgan...and Gabriel...and Rick back at the prison...and Daryl for a few episodes randomly recently...and Eugene...and most of Alexandria. Some of us kind of liked "do what she has to do" Carol.

Yessir I agree Hell even last episode when we saw Glenn killing those saviors. You could see the conflict with him as well.

 

[Brother Jack]

Now this was a great episode. So good it makes up for the contrivance of having Maggie there in the first place.

 

[Leenie]

You got me there. My entire argument hinged on the idea that carol has always been a cold-blooded killer, even before the apocalypse started. /s

Here's the thing...some of us like Carol as the woman who does what needs to be done, even though she doesn't like doing it. The Carol who threatens a kid because she has to...the Carol who mows down an army of Wolves because she has to. Some of kind of hate the fact that she is now so distraught over the idea of killing that she is dangerously hesitant in doing things she wouldn't have blinked at doing during the previous few seasons.

You want a character conflicted over killing? There's Morgan...and Gabriel...and Rick back at the prison...and Daryl for a few episodes randomly recently...and Eugene...and most of Alexandria. Some of us kind of liked "do what she has to do" Carol.

Yeah, she still did what she had to do in this episode. She manipulated the Saviors into keeping the rosary to help untie herself (which led her to find Maggie), she shot 'Chelle right in the head with no hesitation when Maggie was almost sliced in the stomach, and then when she set the rest of the Saviors on fire with the cigarette.

She's going through conflict right now, no question ... But I find that a lot more interesting than her just repeating herself time and time again with "I'm badass Carol who just gets stuff done because." Like I said before, I know a lot of people who are currently bored of Daryl because he's the show's resident badass (and there appears to be not much else to him at this point in time).

Like I said, I don't see this as an abrupt occurrence for Carol. Who has she talked to about Lizzie and Mika? Nobody; not even Daryl. Who has she talked to about being alone when Rick exiled her? Nobody.

She keeps a lot to herself; she carries a lot of weight on her shoulders, and she's felt every single kill she's made. You can only put up that "Rambo" facade for so long until you lose it, I think.

People kept thinking her Betty Crocker persona was just a mask ... Well, it looks like Rambo is a mask, too. Between appearing to be one thing and then another ... Carol may be feeling like she's lost herself along the way.

EDIT: Also ... Carol threatening Sam last season. She did what she had to do to prevent Sam from ratting on her, yes ... But she also did it to build a huge wall between the two of them (based on how she treated him afterwards). It was obvious to me she didn't want to build a friendship with another child. She still obviously felt bad that he died despite that effort, though ... Since she left the last beet cookie on his grave (oh wait, yet ANOTHER tragedy/loss that Carol has only allowed herself to feel).

 

[Heretic]

Right...Glenn JUST got over his aversion to killing.

The masked Carol with a W painted in blood on her forehead would have shot Paula without blinking an eye...because not doing so endangered herself, Maggie AND the unborn baby. There is NO way the Carol I've been watching for the past few seasons would have given that woman a chance to harm them. But she did. The Carol we cheered for as she massacred the Wolves is no more...and the new Carol is a retread of something we already have several of on the show.

 

[Heretic]

Yeah, she still did what she had to do in this episode. She manipulated the Saviors into keeping the rosary to help untie herself (which led her to find Maggie), she shot 'Chelle right in the head with no hesitation when Maggie was almost sliced in the stomach, and then when she set the rest of the Saviors on fire with the cigarette.

She's going through conflict right now, no question ... But I find that a lot more interesting than her just repeating herself time and time again with "I'm badass Carol who just gets stuff done because." Like I said before, I know a lot of people who are currently bored of Daryl because he's the show's resident badass (and there appears to be not much else to him at this point in time).

Like I said, I don't see this as an abrupt occurrence for Caryl. Who has she talked to about Lizzie and Mika? Nobody; not even Daryl. Who has she talked to about being alone when Rick exiled her? Nobody.

She keeps a lot to herself; she carries a lot of weight on her shoulders, and she's felt every single kill she's made. You can only put up that "Rambo" facade for so long until you lose it, I think.

People kept thinking her Betty Crocker persona was just a mask ... Well, it looks like Rambo is a mask, too. Between appearing to be one thing and then another ... Carol may be feeling like she's lost herself along the way.

You must have missed the fact that Daryl developed an aversion to killing recently as well. IF the main viewing audience is bored of Daryl (and I'm not sure that the main viewing audience is) it is because he has had nothing "Daryl-esque" to do in a few seasons.

 

[Elevator Man]

Great Carol and Maggie centered episode.

Another compelling performance from McBride. I’m really enjoying the arc their giving Carol this season. She’s definitely one of the most human and broken characters on the show. The killing has definitely taken it’s toll on Carol. Most of the episode she’s warning her abductors to make the trade with Rick so she wouldn’t have to resort to killing them herself. It definitely blurred on whether she was putting on a façade or not, which is a testament to McBride’s performance.

I thought it was clever how the writers had Carol and Maggie rescue themselves before Rick and co. showed up. They didn’t take any prisoners. That was cold when Carol locked those two saviors in that kill room and then lit it on fire with a cigarette. Maggie had some brutal kills as well e.g when she used walker Donnie to kill Molls and then proceeded to beat her to death with her pistol. Carol and Maggie got their point across that they weren’t planning on dying . I think this traumatic experience will have Maggie thinking twice about joining on a raid again while pregnant with child. However it was exciting seeing Maggie in survival mode again b/c it‘s been a while. It explored another side of the character that we don’t see often. Probably b/c she wasn’t just fighting for herself and Carol but for the survival of her unborn child.

Even though I couldn’t stand Paula I found Alicia Witt’s performance very engrossing. There was plenty of parallels between both Carol and Paula. Except that Paula lost every ounce of humanity while Carol still has some left. And is trying to maintain it as long as possible. I was surprised they killed off Paula. I was expecting her character to be around for the remainder of the season, but what a horrific and disgusting way for her character to go. Getting her whole face chewed off after being impaled by Carol. She should’ve listened to Carol when she offered her a way out.
　
Rick rushed into executing Primo, imo . He might’ve had intel about anymore saviors and other compounds out there. I’m getting fed up with this “shoot first and ask questions later” mentality when they know very little about Negan and the saviors.

Great episode and looking forward to next week’s ep.

 

[Sithborg]

You got me there. My entire argument hinged on the idea that carol has always been a cold-blooded killer, even before the apocalypse started. /s

Here's the thing...some of us like Carol as the woman who does what needs to be done, even though she doesn't like doing it. The Carol who threatens a kid because she has to...the Carol who mows down an army of Wolves because she has to. Some of us kind of hate the fact that she is now so distraught over the idea of killing that she is dangerously hesitant in doing things she wouldn't have blinked at doing during the previous few seasons.

You want a character conflicted over killing? There's Morgan...and Gabriel...and Rick back at the prison...and Daryl for a few episodes randomly recently...and Eugene...and most of Alexandria. Some of us kind of liked "do what she has to do" Carol.

So, she is forced to remain a static character? Which is a waste of a character and Melissa McBride.

 

[Heretic]

So, she is forced to remain a static character? Which is a waste of a character and Melissa McBride.

If there is any character on this show who has NOT been static over the years, it is Carol. We simply like the evolution from abused housewife with no confidence to supreme buttkicker. This evolution, happening so soon after the world saw her unleashed in full glory, is placing her in the same spot several other characters are and have been.

Isn't it a waste of a character and Melissa McBride to give her the same mindset we've already seen so many times on this show?

 

[Leenie]

Right...Glenn JUST got over his aversion to killing.

The masked Carol with a W painted in blood on her forehead would have shot Paula without blinking an eye...because not doing so endangered herself, Maggie AND the unborn baby. There is NO way the Carol I've been watching for the past few seasons would have given that woman a chance to harm them. But she did. The Carol we cheered for as she massacred the Wolves is no more...and the new Carol is a retread of something we already have several of on the show.

What does Glenn have to do with anything? We're talking about Carol. Different character, different story arc, dude.

Was Carol in a position to shoot Paula before she learned about her? Nope! Carol had no gun at that point; all she had were duct taped legs and hands, and a rosary. This gave Paula the opportunity to tell Carol about herself; turns out that Paula's story made Carol reflect about her past and her actions since the two of them came from very similar backgrounds.

With the Wolves, all Carol saw were bad guys killing her people at random. With Paula, she was forced to learn about her. There's a huge difference. Plus, again, Carol broke down after she killed the wolves. You don't think her killing the Wolves like that would make her have some self-reflection? Especially since the episode SHOWED her breaking down after she went all Assassin's Creed on them?

Carol saw herself in Paula after learning about her, thus making her more hesitant to kill her (not saying it was the right thing; just saying I understand where she's coming from). Plus Paula egged her on to do it; she didn't want to prove Paula's point right.

Carol obviously wants to believe at this point that there's room for compassion and hope. When her want for hope and compassion didn't come through with Paula, she then set the rest of the Saviors on fire in a defeated fashion.

As for putting Maggie and her baby at risk ... You don't think Maggie and the rest of Rick's group did that from that start when they agreed to let her out there? Would "Assassin's Creed" Carol been okay to let Maggie put herself and the baby at risk like that, too?

 

[Leenie]

So, she is forced to remain a static character? Which is a waste of a character and Melissa McBride.

Thank you.

Also, don't even compare Carol to Gabriel. Gabriel has been a slimy coward who has FINALLY manned up. Carol has never, ever been like that.

 

[Heretic]

You're right...Assassin's Creed carol would have put up a fight back at Alexandria for them to leave Maggie behind.

But I won't excuse bad writing.

Glenn was mentioned because I rattled off a list of other characters who hesitate doing what is necessary. Carol just got added to the list of people. She's no longer unique.

 

[Leenie]

You're right...Assassin's Creed carol would have put up a fight back at Alexandria for them to leave Maggie behind.

But I won't excuse bad writing.

Glenn was mentioned because I rattled off a list of other characters who hesitate doing what is necessary. Carol just got added to the list of people. She's no longer unique.

Except, AGAIN, she DID do things that were necessary tonight. I guess her helping out Maggie by shooting 'Chelle's brains out doesn't count, eh? I guess setting those Saviors on fire doesn't count, eh?

 

[Heretic]

Carol is not, and never has been a static character...so I'm not sure why you guys are suggesting that I want her to REMAIN a static character.

And yes...she did do what was necessary.

She ALSO begged Paula to run away. Then, she slowly walked toward her and hesitated so much that she allowed Paula to knock the gun out of her hand, which put her life at risk.

Again...this is space that other characters on the show already occupy. I see no reason to cheer for Carol joining them in this space. YES, the show is scripting justification...but I wish the show wasn't scripting it.

 

[Leenie]

Carol is not, and never has been a static character...so I'm not sure why you guys are suggesting that I want her to REMAIN a static character.

And yes...she did do what was necessary.

She ALSO begged Paula to run away. Then, she slowly walked toward her and hesitated so much that she allowed Paula to knock the gun out of her hand, which put her life at risk.

Again...this is space that other characters on the show already occupy. I see no reason to cheer for Carol joining them in this space. YES, the show is scripting justification...but I wish the show wasn't scripting it.

The show is making Rick and his group blur some moral lines by killing the Saviors in their sleep, and then the show is introducing their most famous baddie, who is ruthless (but charismatic, and actually has an honor code of his own).

I think it's kind of important to show one of the biggest badasses of the group to stand back and access what's going on, and I think Carol is just the character to do that, given her backstory.

You can dislike all you want with what's happening to Carol. I'm mostly just arguing that her current situation isn't out of nowhere or abrupt.