The Wrestling Thread Is Like A Sexy Piñata...A VERY Sexy Piñata! - Part 237

[famicommander]

Cena is not a bad wrestler.

I think he faces Joe.

You can hear him calling spots from outside the arena and you can predict his next move without even looking at the screen.

 

[Dr. Evil]

While I think Matt Riddle would be a good signing for WWE, his "habit" may prevent him from signing.

 

[Wheels]

Yeah and when those guys are no longer able to be plugged in the company will be in a place where they've pissed on their actual roster talent for so long that no one will care.

They can do these ****ing awful "special attraction" matches without making them the main attraction and presenting the current guys as sub standard side attractions.

The top guys in the show now should be the focus in the main matches, with these old nostalgia acts booked as as what they are, novelty attractions underneath.

People fail to understand this. When these guys are gone and Randy Orton becomes one of your special attractions the vast majority of people outside our bubble won't give a **** because he wasn't a star when the business was hot, and he's not as visible as Cena. Who's going to become the new draws?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

People fail to understand this. When these guys are gone and Randy Orton becomes one of your special attraction the vast majority of people outside our bubble won't give a **** because he wasn't a star when the business was hot, and he's not as visible as Cena. Who's going to became the new draws?

Exactly. It is like these guys never got the Shawn Michaels memo. The one where you spend these years making stars, not going over them so they can never be as big as you.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The WWE needs the part timers to bring back the casual fans. What happens when the Rock, Goldberg, Lesnar and now Cena all leave for good? The casual fans have no reason to tune into the WWE anymore once those guys leave.

Damn, this summer it'll be a decade since "The Summer of Hell 2007."

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The WWE needs the part timers to bring back the casual fans. What happens when the Rock, Goldberg, Lesnar and now Cena all leave for good? The casual fans have no reason to tune into the WWE anymore once those guys leave.

Damn, this summer it'll be a decade since "The Summer of Hell 2007."

This is because they keep putting them over everyone. That is the entire point. They only need them because they keep burying the actual wrestlers these days. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like when WCW decided guys likes Eddie, Jericho and Benoit couldn't be stars, so they still needed the likes of Hogan front and center.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Damn, it's been a decade since the WWE went through their "Summer of Hell 2007." The WWE must have been fortunate that the Rock never severed ties with them at that time, when he should have in all honesty.

 

[Loki882]

Bringing them back is fine, no problem with that. It's having them hog all of the top spots, and constantly putting them over your full-time talent, THAT'S the problem.

And as DarthSkywalker, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. First of all, their booking philosophy in-general, with it's obsession with 50/50 booking, ensures that virtually no one gets over like they need to or should. And then they compound the problem by hammering in the idea that the "old-timers" are so much more superior overall. So the whole reason why they "need the old-timers for the casual audience" is because they've conditioned the casual audience for years now to see the new guys as fundamentally inferior.

No crap the casuals think more highly of the old guys, WWE has beaten it into their heads for a long time now that said old guys are better.

It's a problem, that they largely created and brought upon themselves with how they've presented things for years now. And as also mentioned above, it's some of the very same stuff that helped lead to WCW's demise, and caused a lot of TNA's problems (that they're just now trying to dig their way out of).

You'd think that these people would learn from past mistakes, but they never seem to.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I know this isn't likely to happen again but:

- if what happened in 2007 to the WWE happened again this year, would The Rock, Goldberg, Lesnar and John Cena sever ties with the WWE? I think Lesnar and Goldberg would and the Rock might. Not sure bout Cena.

 

[Loki882]

Goldberg is coming back for his kid. His kid never saw him wrestle. And I also doubt he wants his son to hear boos from the crowd, so he's going to give a damn.

Honestly Goldberg not caring isn't my concern here. I really think that he does. Goldberg's only issue is that he's was never a great worker to begin with, and he's now near-50 and has had ONE match in 12 years, and that was a squash match. So unless they want the Mania match to be a squash to, which would be lame as heck, I have concerns as to how he'll do in a longer match. But I don't doubt that he will give it his best effort, if only for his son's sake.

No it's Brock's interest level that I'm more worried about. His matches have bored me recently because it seems like he cannot be bothered to give more than half-effort, if even that much. Heck Ambrose basically said that that's what killed the Mania match last year.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Lesnar probably wants to go back to the UFC.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Bringing them back is fine, no problem with that. It's having them hog all of the top spots, and constantly putting them over your full-time talent, THAT'S the problem.

And as DarthSkywalker, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. First of all, their booking philosophy in-general, with it's obsession with 50/50 booking, ensures that virtually no one gets over like they need to or should. And then they compound the problem by hammering in the idea that the "old-timers" are so much more superior overall. So the whole reason why they "need the old-timers for the casual audience" is because they've conditioned the casual audience for years now to see the new guys as fundamentally inferior.

No crap the casuals think more highly of the old guys, WWE has beaten it into their heads for a long time now that said old guys are better.

It's a problem, that they largely created and brought upon themselves with how they've presented things for years now. And as also mentioned above, it's some of the very same stuff that helped lead to WCW's demise, and caused a lot of TNA's problems (that they're just now trying to dig their way out of).

You'd think that these people would learn from past mistakes, but they never seem to.

Yeah the 50-50 booking things is so bizarre. The only ones allowed to continually look strong are the part timers.

 

[Dr. Evil]

It's only 50-50 booking if it doesn't involve Roman Reigns

 

[Wheels]

The Rock isn't always going to be available to work Mania and we don't know about Batista either. If anyone actually thinks Brock is sticking around long-term then they're fooling themselves, and Undertaker can't go much 'onger. People are going to pay for legends show style Manias just to see Cena, Triple H, and Batista if he's not busy? Pffft

 

[famicommander]

Bringing them back is fine, no problem with that. It's having them hog all of the top spots, and constantly putting them over your full-time talent, THAT'S the problem.

And as DarthSkywalker, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. First of all, their booking philosophy in-general, with it's obsession with 50/50 booking, ensures that virtually no one gets over like they need to or should. And then they compound the problem by hammering in the idea that the "old-timers" are so much more superior overall. So the whole reason why they "need the old-timers for the casual audience" is because they've conditioned the casual audience for years now to see the new guys as fundamentally inferior.

No crap the casuals think more highly of the old guys, WWE has beaten it into their heads for a long time now that said old guys are better.

It's a problem, that they largely created and brought upon themselves with how they've presented things for years now. And as also mentioned above, it's some of the very same stuff that helped lead to WCW's demise, and caused a lot of TNA's problems (that they're just now trying to dig their way out of).

You'd think that these people would learn from past mistakes, but they never seem to.

They don't have to learn from their mistakes because the majority of wrestling fans aren't even willing to consider watching an alternative like NJPW, ROH, TNA, Lucha Underground, etc. All four of those promotions have TV shows on national TV in the US and none of them gets even close to a million domestic viewers per week, except perhaps ROH if you include rohwrestling.com/Fite TV app viewers.

Not that the four mentioned promotions don't have their own issues, but Vince isn't ever going to change if he's still controlling 80-90% of the market.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They don't have to learn from their mistakes because the majority of wrestling fans aren't even willing to consider watching an alternative like NJPW, ROH, TNA, Lucha Underground, etc. All four of those promotions have TV shows on national TV in the US and none of them gets even close to a million domestic viewers per week, except perhaps ROH if you include rohwrestling.com/Fite TV app viewers.

Not that the four mentioned promotions don't have their own issues, but Vince isn't ever going to change if he's still controlling 80-90% of the market.

The problem is he is shrinking the market every year.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I think Batista is done based on his recent comments.

If the Rock was really done this year, I think he would have been the headliner at the WWE Hall of Fame this year. I got a prediction on this: he headlines the 2020 Class of the WWE Hall of Fame, because I think WrestleMania 36 will be at the new Los Angeles Rams stadium. It's in Hollywood, so the WWE can get maximum press coverage if the Rock gets inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in Los Angeles. He's one of the biggest movie stars on the planet so he's going to get a lot of coverage, whatever he does. Hell, he was in the news twice last week: when Moana got two Oscar nominations and when Naomie Harris signed up for Rampage.

Damn it, I want to see the Rock and Batista in a movie together. I think it would be cool to see. We all see from Guardians of the Galaxy and Spectre that Big Dave isn't a bad actor.

Make it happen, Hollywood! A movie starring Dwayne Johnson and Dave Batista.

 

[famicommander]

The problem is he is shrinking the market every year.

That's true.

As far as I can tell NJPW is the only major promotion in the world that is actually growing right now.

ROH had huge growth in 2014-2015 and a decent 2016, but they seemed mostly to level off. Still in a good position but they need to regain some of the enthusiasm. Improve the booking.

WWE is still #1 but shrinking rapidly

AAA is total chaos right now

TNA is at the very beginning of what will be a very difficult rebuilding process

LU may or may not end up filming a season 4

Pro Wrestling NOAH was just sold and is also in for a lot of rebuilding

I can't remember the last time Dragon Gate was relevant

All Japan Pro Wrestling is a shell of its former self

It's hard to tell how CMLL is doing but they seem okay right now

The place where wrestling is getting hot is the UK. Hopefully WWE doesn't muck it all up because I feel like one of the bigger UK promotions (RevPro, ICW, Progress, or this WOS reboot thing) was on the verge of becoming a true major promotion in its own right.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah and it'd be both sad (for the fans who love it), but also hilarious (for the people who were warning about this) if 5-10 years down the road when things have gone even more south, if WWE looks back on it and thinks to themselves "wow it was stupid of us to do it that way, and even more so not to listen to the people who were trying to warn us of that."

 

[Dr. Evil]

Many of my friends used to be big WWF fans during the Monday Night Wars, but in the last decade, they've gone away from pro wrestling and moved towards the UFC. I think that's how it used to be. Hell, I watch more UFC than pro wrestling these days because of the excitement built around the UFC fights. Last night though, the UFC event on Fox was boring and plodding, unlike NXT Takeover: San Antonio. The last several UFC PPV events though were pretty good, although UFC 207 had too much Ronda Rousey and not enough of the woman who is champion, Amanda Nunes.

I've watched a little LU, and I did see Wrestle Kingdom 11 (although not live) as wrestling outside the WWE and I've been in and out of ROH the last year or so. TNA was good this past week and the ones where the Hardy's are the focal point have been brilliant.

At this point, I am more excited about the rematch between Anthony Johnson and Daniel Cormier at UFC 210 than WrestleMania 33 or anything in pro wrestling.

I also got strong opinions on UFC/MMA fighters in pro wrestling if anyone is interested.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I do think Goldberg cares in this case, Hunter. I think he'd want to go out and have a match that gets a good reaction. I doubt he wants his kid hearing a shower of booes for what could be his last match.

I see, I was just curious as Goldberg never struck me as a guy that cared about anything in wrestling apart from whether he was going over and how much he was getting paid. If he wants to have a good match at Mania he needs AJ, Rollins or Cena to get him there from the current roster.

People fail to understand this. When these guys are gone and Randy Orton becomes one of your special attractions the vast majority of people outside our bubble won't give a **** because he wasn't a star when the business was hot, and he's not as visible as Cena. Who's going to become the new draws?

Exactly, it's not rocket science yet Triple H seems powerless to get it through to Vince, or is reluctant to speak against it since he's leeched off the mindset for years hmself.

Exactly. It is like these guys never got the Shawn Michaels memo. The one where you spend these years making stars, not going over them so they can never be as big as you.

Spot on, look at the model from 2005-8 where Cena, Batista, Edge and Orton got the title matches and were presented in the main events, while HBK and Taker provided the high caliber legend main event match that supported the title match while occassionally working with these guys in the title match and putting them over!....Shawn more than Taker yes, but that's understandable as back then you logically can't devalue Taker with too many losses, especially clean ones.

Bringing them back is fine, no problem with that. It's having them hog all of the top spots, and constantly putting them over your full-time talent, THAT'S the problem.

And as DarthSkywalker, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. First of all, their booking philosophy in-general, with it's obsession with 50/50 booking, ensures that virtually no one gets over like they need to or should. And then they compound the problem by hammering in the idea that the "old-timers" are so much more superior overall. So the whole reason why they "need the old-timers for the casual audience" is because they've conditioned the casual audience for years now to see the new guys as fundamentally inferior.

No crap the casuals think more highly of the old guys, WWE has beaten it into their heads for a long time now that said old guys are better.

It's a problem, that they largely created and brought upon themselves with how they've presented things for years now. And as also mentioned above, it's some of the very same stuff that helped lead to WCW's demise, and caused a lot of TNA's problems (that they're just now trying to dig their way out of).

You'd think that these people would learn from past mistakes, but they never seem to.

Every bit of this, wrestling is a business built on perception, you are selling your product to people, it's not a sport where actual success breeds success. If you keep telling your audience these guys are nothing special and present them as fill ins every time some jacked up guy from the past rocks up, then that is how they will be seen, and as you say WWE have beaten fans over the head with this mindset.

There's nothing wrong with a nostalgia match or a special attraction match, but you don't present it as a bigger deal than your top guys working 300+ days of the year in your main events for your titles.

How Vince vs Hogan was booked is THE BLUEPRINT of how to do these matches with guys like Taker and Goldberg, it's the special attraction placed in a supporting position on the card, Brock vs Angle for the WWE title went on last and was presented as the most important match.

 

[Serpico Jones]

WWE needs to return more to the attitude era way of doing things. More violence and language to drive up the heat. Look at how bloody and visceral UFC is compared to WWE.

 

[nite-owl]

 

[Wheels]

Also, the reason I keep bringing up Joe vs Cena is the Vegas odds on him winning the Rumble, where he's one of the favorites, and that if Cena doesn't face Taker as many claim, then Joe seems like a legitimate option, I mean what's he going to do otherwise? They booked him and AJ for tonight. Is he going to go after Ambrose's IC title? I doubt it.

 

[Bat Brain]

It's nice to have no idea who's gonna win the Rumble for a change. I'm looking forward to tonight.