The Wrestling Thread Saw the End of An Era - Part 55

[DeLaHaystack]

A great pick up. Buy it, buy it now!


Hell, the show and the wrestling could look like **** and you can still have a great time with the right friend. Like watching a bad movie, but the actors can hear your insults!

I go to alot of horrible shows just for comedy lol

 

[Metallo]

Oh I remember Air Paris ROFL! They were wrestling there around the time Bischoff was getting ready to buyout the company. I remember thinking how green and generic looking those two were.

I think the thing with AJ is Hogan and Bischoff aren't really a big fan of him. I think they see him as one of those small "flippy-dippy" guys, hence Flair remodeling and the lack of push there after. Hogan and company like a certain kind of look and size for their main event guys.

It doesn't help when AJ publicly criticizes the company, but I don't blame him.

All four guys have had their main event runs, only Punk and Danielson did it on a bigger stage and at a later time. Punk is pretty much the top player behind Cena, but even Punk is not where he should be. WWE dropped the ball on him big time when he returned. There's speculation he's going to become even less important now that Brock has returned and Punk is going to end up as the "odd man out."

The jury is still out on what's going to happen with Bryan.

I would not count on Joe going to WWE unless he changes his look. Every time his contract has expired WWE has shown ZERO in him. The main reason is said to be due to his look.




I think Joe's run at the main event is done, regardless if Hogan & Co. are still there or not. He just doesn't have the backing of the management that's been there for ages. I think the best he can hope for is to be a solid upper mid-card guy. He's in a good role now.

While I wouldn't mind seeing AJ in WWE, I'd have little faith they'd use him correctly. He turned them down years ago and Vince tends to not like that sort of thing. Plus AJ is on the smaller side and southern, both of which don't bode well in Vince's world. I think the best he could hope for is an Evan Bourne type role. He won't get the Bryan type push because he's a completely different wrestler and personality.

Plus, I've always got the feeling from AJ based on his interviews that he does not want to take the time away from his family and young boys to work the WWE schedule. I'm guessing that's a big factor in his decision. Plus, despite his frustrations with his role right now, he strikes me as the type of guy who would be loyal to Dixie and TNA and will ride out the rough patches.

I can understand the family thing because if he wants to have a lighter schedule to raise his boys WWE isn't going to make that easy.

His style and size and being southern could definitely be strikes against him but I think he has a little more going for him than Bourne. AJ might be smallish but he's a lot bigger than Bourne and I think he's developed more personality. I agree trying WWE is VERY risky but it very well could work out for him. If things work out for Bryan thats a godo sign for Styles even though their...styles...aren't the same. They both have to fight some things people in the business see as strikes against them.

With Joe...I think he may have missed his window to be a top guy in TNA or even be in WWE. TNA royally misused him but I feel like he fell off a bit in his work as well. Its been hard to come back from all that.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The guys on Chair Shot Reality think that Daniel Bryan will be fine because neither of them believe that the "Yes, Yes, Yes!" chants will die down completely.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Nell makes a valid point about the drama and it's importance in wrestling. There is truth in some of the statements he's making. Where Nell misses the mark however is that it's the in-ring action and "sporting" aspect that drives the drama, not the other way around. The drama, whether it be promos, videos, or whatever other criteria you want to use, is the supplemental material to wrestling. It's the wrestling that will always be the main attraction to the product for the fans. The reason the drama isn't the sole drawing force is because despite the fact fans know it's "worked" they still want to treat what happens in the ring as a legitimate sport. That's why rubs, wins, losses, and squashes are important. WWE fans love Santino and the entertainment aspect, but no WWE fan would ever buy him in a World title program, and that's because he has no credibilty in his wins. At it's heart, fans still treat pro wrestling as they would any other sport.

Just to validate my point, take a look at Starrcade 97. Sting vs. Hogan had perhaps one of the greatest build-ups in professional wrestling history. That match drew a ton of interest and was WCW best drawing match in the company's history. The drama was very important. But guess what? In the end all of it did not matter and it failed because Sting, who won the match, was not put over clean by Hogan and was largely squashed before he got the submission. This moment was the turning point for WCW and the beginning of their downslide. Sting was never the same after that either and his draw and popularity took a hit as well due to the fact fans saw him as the guy who did not go over. He looked weak in his win. It's not just about wins and losses. The fans want to believe the top guys are legit athletes who deserve their spot. That's what draws fans in the end. Yes the drama is important, but it's not what turns the business and allows it to thrive.

All you have to do is take a look at the wrestling industry and the way it operates now versus to how it drew during it's highest periods to see the difference. I don't even want to get into the characters that are put over today and the difference among workers on top today versus yesterday. HHH/Taker/HBK is the end of era in more ways that you know.

Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll get around to writing the article I was going to put up taking a look at the business today compared to years prior.

Great post.

Why don't you put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to say?

I will continue to express my opinion, as well as defend myself from people in here who continuously twist my words and insult me because I don't see things the same way they do.

No one twists your words, the fact the bulk of this thread are calling you on your BS illustrates what has been said by me more than once, and it's ironic since you constantly try to push this agenda that some of us have problems with thins we don't like Brodus or Sheamus, in fact no one said Bryan got buried at Mania, we all said the same thing, it's a ****** thing to do to BOTH guys as they didn't get to have a match on the big stage, soemething that's pretty important to wrestlers.

I've caught some of the old matches on tv . I think ESPN 2 used to play Wrestling Classics. I could jump in anytime. I think you guys really drove it home but basically it's the same for me. Also I like the canvas analogy. They used that for a Survivor Series promo one time.

Also I see where you come from. I am glad to see Rock , Brock , and others return but seeing them face each other is a waste. I want them to mesh with new talent. Brock vs Rock doesn't excite me nearly as much as the other possibilities.

That's how I feel, the two guys in the ring can make the match matter without a huge build if they are good at the actual in ring aspect, plus sometimes angles are really overblown these days, often simple is better.

That's exactly it, Hogan's first return to WWE in 2002 was great because he mixed in and everyone was entertained and the current wrestlers all benefit. If Rock and Brock become part of a main event clique that excludes all the main roster bar Cena then long term that damage will be greater than the one off buyrates.

I don't think people are right to accuse Nell of not being a fan. He's a different kind of fan. On the forum I used to regularly talk wrestling on, there were a couple of posters whose view was totally skewed in favor of the "entertainment" side of things. They said they fast-forwarded any match that lasted longer than a couple of minutes. They thought Vince Russo was the wrestling messiah - that the Attitude Era was great, but he really got awesome with his work in latter day WCW and TNA. They didn't like the "boring" in-ring technicians and indy darlings and preferred the larger-than-life characters. And they got a lot of hate for it, and a lot of accusations they weren't real fans. But they were.

And so it Nell. Yes, I disagree with a whole lot of what he says, and some of his rationale makes me want to bang my head against a wall. But his passion for pro wrestling shouldn't be called into question, and he has as much right to enjoy it in his way as we do in our way.

I don't think they're all that different, though. Nell, you really emphasize how much folk who disagree with you talk about "burials" and "giving the rub" and all the inside baseball stuff, and yes, stuff like that is brought up on occasion. But I think you'll find that ultimately, we just want to be entertained too. And even if what entertains us is different, and even if the wording used is different, I'd say that criticisms or gripes tend to basically amount to a failure of the product to entertain us as viewers.

I think people are saying Nell's an entertainment fan not a pro wrestling fan, a guy who probably would not have been a fan if there was no attitude era.

You're right that we all want to be entertained, where the main issue comes up in this thread is a lot of us want to see new stars made and given sustained pushes for the future of wrestling. We want to see the business go forward not rely on bit part nostalgia at the expense of building the young talent.

True, but then again, Kurt Angle had a fu**ed up neck and Michaels busted his back and they put on one of the greatest matches in Wrestlemania history.

They were full time though so they didn't have the rust issues, plus they are smaller which usually counters injury and age better. The other main difference is HBK and Angle bleed wrestling and will lay it all on the line, Rock has movie insurance to worry about and Brock hates wrestling, so the mindset of the guys are very different.

I think it would be a good idea to have AJ sit out for awhile and take him off tv for a few months. It'll give him some time to rest and also allow him to come back a fresh face.

If I was TNA I'd book AJ to get taken out through some kind of injury angle and let him take about 4 months off. Then they could have him return on Impact in a big way. I'd book him to proclaim his intent on winning the world title and him running through guys the next few months until he gets his title shot.

Do TNA pay guys when they are off Impact and the road?

 

[Superark]

I can understand the family thing because if he wants to have a lighter schedule to raise his boys WWE isn't going to make that easy.

His style and size and being southern could definitely be strikes against him but I think he has a little more goign for him than Bourne. AJ might be smallish but he's a lot bigger than Bourne and I think he's developed more personality. I agree trying WWE is VERY risky but it very well could work out for him. If things work out for Bryan thats a godo sign for Styles even though their...styles...aren't the same. They both have to fight some things people in the business see as strikes against them.

With Joe...I think he may have missed his window to be a top guy in TNA or even be in WWE. TNA royally misused him but I feel like he fell off a bit in his work as well. Its been hard to come back from all that.

I certainly agree he has more going for him than Bourne, at least in terms of talent. He's better on the stick and in the ring. Unfortunately I think he'd be typecasted in that Bourne role.

Styles going to WWE would be a huge risk, but a profitable one if it he actually "made it" there. The thing with Styles is I think he's good enough to main event in WWE or TNA. He can hold his own on the mic and he's so damn good he can put on classics with both rosters. The trick to booking AJ in WWE is to push him as the guy who is the underdog, but so damn good in the ring that you can believe he could beat these hulking guys like Cena or Sheamus.


Joe was misused to the point that he cannot ever be booked as a top guy again. Joe's performances were certainly lackluster after his top run. I'm not sure if it's because of a lack of motivation or if it was due to injuries, but he was not the same after he lost his title. I know TNA wanted him to get into better shape and WWE wouldn't sign him unless he changed his appearance. Joe is a little bit of his own worst enemy.

 

[Dr. Evil]

As long as Hulk Hogan doesn't "WCW" TNA by having his friends fill key roles in TNA, Joe and AJ Styles should stay in TNA.

That should be TNA's biggest fear, that Hogan uses whatever influence he has with Dixie to bring his friends into the company. That hasn't happened so far and let's hope that Hogan's stint hogging the TNA spotlight doesn't lead to that or it could be trouble for TNA.

 

[Superark]

Great post.



Do TNA pay guys when they are off Impact and the road?

Thanks Hunter!

I do know that most of the TNA talents are paid on a per-appearance basis, so no they would not get paid when not on Impact or the road.

That's something I did not consider. I would hope AJ has been there long enough that he has a guarantee and isn't paid based on appearances. Even if he is not on tv, he could still work house shows.

But that's a good point and something maybe AJ could not do unless TNA agreed they would pay him while they kepy him off tv.

 

[NDX]

I already want to punch Dean Ambrose in the face, so I guess he's doing his job well.

Damn skippy he is.

I saw him as Moxley only 3 times in the indies before his signing. I thought he was total ****, only have 1 good match with Jigsaw at that failed DGUSA show I went to. But he was slick on the mic, I gave him that. I thought his hiring by the WWE was a bad idea. Man, he proved me wrong, and he did so quite quickly.

I really do want to see him in the 'E now.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I like Dean Ambrose.

 

[Superark]

As long as Hulk Hogan doesn't "WCW" TNA by having his friends fill key roles in TNA, Joe and AJ Styles should stay in TNA.

That should be TNA's biggest fear, that Hogan uses whatever influence he has with Dixie to bring his friends into the company. That hasn't happened so far and let's hope that Hogan's stint hogging the TNA spotlight doesn't lead to that or it could be trouble for TNA.

I think we've already seen that experiment with Hogan's buddies and talent they wanted to bring in when they first came aboard, and it failed miserably. I doubt we will see that again.

It looks like they are going to focus on the roster they have now, though there is talk of letting guys go and bringing in new talent, but I suspect they will be guys from Ring ka King and talent of a smaller profile.

I'll give TNA credit for trying to get over new guys and the attention on them for the most part. I'm still worried about Hogan becoming the sole focus of TV again, but to his credit, he kept his role to a minimal level on Thursday.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Thanks Hunter!

I do know that most of the TNA talents are paid on a per-appearance basis, so no they would not get paid when not on Impact or the road.

That's something I did not consider. I would hope AJ has been there long enough that he has a guarantee and isn't paid based on appearances. Even if he is not on tv, he could still work house shows.

But that's a good point and something maybe AJ could not do unless TNA agreed they would pay him while they kepy him off tv.

He would definitely have to get something in writing to gurantee his money I think, especially sicne you know Hogan and Bischoff would be making things as difficult as possible for him.

 

[Metallo]

Great post.

Totally agree. Superark illustrated exactly what a lot of people have been saying. Starrcade 97 had one of the best build ups I've EVER seen. It made the build to Rock vs Cena look amateurish. Sting and Hogan did everything just right. It was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. But because of issues with the match and the screwy finish its all been tainted. Its not nearly as well remembered as it should have been

But certain people are going to ignore that. Either to be a pain and be stubborn or because they have ZERO frame of reference and because they know they can't make an argument against Superarks example.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Whenever I watch the webseries "Are You Serious" I laugh whenever I see puppet Triple H.

 

[Wheels]

Damn skippy he is.

I saw him as Moxley only 3 times in the indies before his signing. I thought he was total ****, only have 1 good match with Jigsaw at that failed DGUSA show I went to. But he was slick on the mic, I gave him that. I thought his hiring by the WWE was a bad idea. Man, he proved me wrong, and he did so quite quickly.

I really do want to see him in the 'E now.

So do you like some of his matches in FCW?

 

[NDX]

So do you like some of his matches in FCW?

Yes I do. So I'm thinking it was the fact that he wrestled a lazy Homicide and worked with Eddie Kingston (because you can't call what Kingston does wrestling), that could explain why the matches were utter ****.

 

[Wheels]

Yes I do. So I'm thinking it was the fact that he wrestled a lazy Homicide and worked with Eddie Kingston (because you can't call what Kingston does wrestling), that could explain why the matches were utter ****.

Cool. I'm going to PM you something, but you've probably already seen it.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

But this is still the greatest Bryan Danielson promo ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSh2s_lmthI

Did I hear that Bryan Danielson likes German Chocolate Cake in this promo?

Because if I did, that's enough to shoot the guy as the #1 guy in the company.

 

[Slushy]

I disagree with a lot of what Nell has to say, but I also agree with some of what he has to say. I felt the same way about Black Lantern.

It's good to hear from the other side of views (so long as we can keep it civil) even if the opinions are unpopular.

 

[Wheels]

BL was really entertaining though.

 

[NDX]

Nell and BL are/were good posters, and I think no matter how much arguing goes/went on, they add more to the thread than take away. Unlike the previously mentioned LastSunrise, who was so hardheaded he got banned from the threads.

Nell, while stuck on his ideals on what wrestling should be (and can't argue it, it's what a lot of people feel that don't frequent this thread or other places, I know someone like this in person), but he's shown growth with his acceptance of some wrestlers like Punk and Ziggler.

Now that being said, everything you say is wrong, Nell!

 

[The Apocalypse]

Totally agree. Superark illustrated exactly what a lot of people have been saying. Starrcade 97 had one of the best build ups I've EVER seen. It made the build to Rock vs Cena look amateurish. Sting and Hogan did everything just right. It was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. But because of issues with the match and the screwy finish its all been tainted. Its not nearly as well remembered as it should have been

But certain people are going to ignore that. Either to be a pain and be stubborn or because they have ZERO frame of reference and because they know they can't make an argument against Superarks example.

All I remember was being 7 at the time and I was NEVER that excited for a match. Until today I think it had the best build up to any match I ever watched.

 

[Oerwinde]

I hope DBryan embraces the Yes chant with his "I'm a Role Model" gimmick, rather than turn on the crowd overtly, but stick with the heel character. He was kinda meh as a face, but as a heel he's fantastic.

I hope Cody Rhodes gets the IC title back, and defends it once in a while. Then pulls off his Ultimate Warrior goal and gets the World Heavyweight. Then have him win the Rumble and push him to challenge the WWE champion only to have him challenge taker for the streak instead. This would be an ideal way to end the streak putting over a younger talent. Either him or Ziggler would be my choice to end the streak.

 

[Metallo]

Finally watched some of Sting vs Roode at Victory Road. It would have been a pretty good match if it weren't for that awful ending. It should have ended clean. The winner needed that. The end with the chair was absurd. He beat himself...WTF?

Roode did some great heel work though and I see how they were trying to get him heat but a better finish would have made it work much better. I did wonder where security was. Thats one thing that annoys me with the end of a lot of wrestling matches when something wrong is being done.

BL was really entertaining though.

Agreed. BlackLantern liked to play devils advocate for a kick but he knew what he was talking about. Plus the guys wit made it impossible to not be entertained by him.

All I remember was being 7 at the time and I was NEVER that excited for a match. Until today I think it had the best build up to any match I ever watched.

There was an amazing use of psychology in storytelling. Sting helped get it all over without saying a word for a year. How many people can do that? Loved how he turned his back to test people. He REALLY got into that character.

Hogan was doing the best promo work if his career during that period too.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

I never understood why VKM did not like southern wrestling or southern people for that matter.

 

[Nemi]

I never understood why VKM did not like southern wrestling or southern people for that matter.

If I remember correctly, it's cause he himself is southern but wants to be as far away from that as possible and wants to be seen as more of a high class businessman.