Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[PeterBenParker]

This Spidey actually swears!

Hope he gets to say, "You know what we call that? A web swinging, ass kicking!"

From Marvel Nemesis: Rise of Imperfects, such a good line.

 

[PeterBenParker]

 

[UltimateWebhead]

well, perhaps the fact that there's more passionate feelings about MJ's changes is a testament to just how popular and important that character is.

and, with all due respect to GOTG fans, I'd say the GOTG characters, up until their movie debut, were nowhere near as mainstream popular as MJ from the Spider-Man comics.

for many, the GOTG was their first real exposure to those characters and their world. And as I've said before, characters who are less mainstream popular and familiar, who are "lower" on the tier of characters, have more leeway in making changes.

Same with Zemo, Obidiah, and Hank Pym, as you mentioned. Outside of the comic world, those just aren't popular, well known characters. I had never heard or Zemo or Obidiah before. They also don't have multiple prior mainstream adaptations that can be compared to.

A character like MJ has been in multiple adaptations when you count the comics, films, animated series, games, etc. And in all of those, she has had a consistent look and personality throughout.

So, the "image" and "perception" of that character is more ingrained in people's mind than say Star Lord or Zemo or Ant-Man.

thus, any deviations are bound to ignite more passionate debate.

just look at the threads here. You hear hardly nary a peep that Liz Allan is black. But the Zendaya is MJ thread is getting all the attention and passion.

it just shows just how much MJ is in a different league compared to a character like Liz.

There's no denying the popularity of MJ. OMD caused a complete uproar in the comic community for how horribly it handled the dissolution of the marriage and now 8 years-ish later we STILL have people clamoring for a reunion between the two. The RYV series published last year went thru 4 printings. And imo the upcoming RYV series headed by Gerry Conway is going to outsell the main ASM book. MJ's popularity is definitely a major thing...besides the talk going on over the internet about the movie, MJ's inclusion in the IIM comic series boosted sales and if I'm not mistaken, MJ on the cover of ASM #15 of this year sold more copies than the previous 14 save for maybe the first issue. Yes, she's undoubtedly very popular.

But, she's also just a supporting character. Not like Star Lord who is essentially a main character in the Guardians and Marvel did a complete change on him to the point where someone who is familar with the comics may not have recognized him. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge MJ supporter and fan. I adore her and consider her one of the best, if not the best supporting characters in all of Marvel. However, we're talking about a simple change in color of skin while still keeping the characterization intact. All of this is still speculation but she may end up dressing more like 616 MJ and reveal she's a natural redhead all along--only using the brown hair as a cover up to hide the fact she's a model.

And going off of appearance, not meaning to take shots at Kirsten nor Shailene who are both pretty in their own right, but Zendaya has the appearance to where she would be believable as a model, imo. As in she could actually attain that status. But with appearances, I'd rather have a good character over just having a look to them. Kirsten has white skin and went to the red hair but her characterization sucked.

The emboldened...Ultimate comics MJ is not like 616 MJ. So, no, they are not all consistent. Ultimate MJ is actually very much like TSSM Gwen. Starts off as the brainy pal and dressing in baggy clothes only to undergo a physical transformation of sorts. I believe Marvel is using both Ultimate and SLMJ as influences for the character...so we'll most likely get an amalgamation of the character to include those and 616.

At this point, I am just glad there's this much heated debate going on with regard to MJ. It only confirms that she is still considered such an important character. Especially after what happened in SM3 and then how Emma Stone's portrayal brought out the Gwen shippers. But now, I've seen many saying MJ is Peter's greatest love, which I believe to be true, but it's good to see that type of passion for the character. She's not had a good run over the past decade in the movies and comics.

 

[harryoscop]

Hope he gets to say, "You know what we call that? A web swinging, ass kicking!"

From Marvel Nemesis: Rise of Imperfects, such a good line.

Haha! t: Love that game.

"You gotta be kidding, this is going to be tooo easy!"

 

[Kurenai]

[Yt]HRlPkhvkkHc[/MEDIA]

This may have already been brought up, but one of the hosts on Collider talked Zendaya's acting at 5:40.

tl;dr version if you don't want to watch, but the female host talks about how she used to go for nick/disney shows and how directors wrote notes on the script talking about watch Zendaya b/c she had really good comedic timing, so a lot directors for these shows used Zendaya as a reference.

This was interesting to hear, you can almost kind of infer that Zendaya's comedic timing was one of the qualities that got her the part, there's no doubt that Homecoming will have some comedy in it what with it being a marvel movie and being inspired by John Hughes movies.

 

[Galactus123]

Exactly. When I saw an almost perfect comic book Peter Parker in Civil War I got so excited for Homecoming because I thought it was going to be the most comic book accurate Spidey film to date, because it was Marvel! I thought because the character was at home....

I should of known after the young, sexy totally not struggling financially Aunt May though!

I thought the same. I don't understand why they would want to change characters like that. I wouldn't like if they changed black characters to be white either.

 

[Poppy]

Thing is MJ always created the party fun girl persona to escape her problems. In the comics and other sources you meet her after she created the persona. In this movie, we are meeting her before. Simple as that. And like others have mentioned, it is a variation of the shock reveal we got in the comics.

This is MJ at 11-13 year old :

She has nothing to do with the MJ in Homecoming.At 16, her family was already extremely messy, and if she lives already with her aunt that means her mother already died. Her 'happy go girl' persona should already be here.
I'm suprised so many people are okay with such big changes.It's like Peter being the popular footballer player in HS and slowly becoming an introvert?

I have no problem with changing Mary Jane's race. But what worries me is the rumors that she's a glasses-wearing geek girl or something similar, and we're not getting a proper adaptation of what made MJ so interesting. Honestly, I can't think of any adapation that really did her justice outside of maybe Spectacular Spider-Man. Not even the first movie.

MJ, to me, was interesting because of how she foiled Peter. After the abuse she suffers as a child, she wears a metaphorical mask, becoming a cheery, ditsy party girl to hide her trauma. In contrast to Peter, who wears a literal mask to confront his responsibilities, MJ wore hers to escape from it. And a couple of adaptations have touched upon her upbringing, but none of them went into the parallels between her and Peter, how she coped through her sadness by putting on a happy face and putting herself in the spotlight. What makes her romance with Peter so great is that it isn't just him sharing his secret with her, she does the same, and unmasks herself to him.

And the other problem is the one Marvel has seemed to have with MJ for years, and that is because she's a pretty supermodel and a party girl, she's not good enough for Peter. Several writers have even actually stated that Peter marrying a supermodel makes his life "easier" as if she wasn't an actual character, and just a prop to make Peter's life easier, and that's much more problematic than this whole reverse racism argument. The idea that Peter needs a geek girl, someone interested in science, or the like all seem to be based on the idea that because MJ is conventionally attractive, she's a stuck-up *****, she's too shallow, she's not right for Peter and only loves him because he's Spider-Man.
And really, that's part of the whole reason why MJ became such a breakout character. She wasn't designed to be Peter's love interest. She wasn't a reporter assigned to Spider-Man or his nurse or science partner. She was a girl with her own life and her own interests, and her romance with Peter wasn't destiny or being perfect for each other, it was an awkward accident of two people learning to open up to each other. That's the biggest reason why MJ became so popular. She wasn't a love interest. She was her own character, who fell in love.

And there's no reason the above can't apply to a black MJ, or an Asian MJ, or a hispanic MJ. But Marvel seems to have had a stick up their ass for years about her, and that Peter can't be with a pretty popular girl because that's too easy for him. And that's what worries me about Homecoming, and I'd be worried even if she was a white girl, because MJ isn't a geek girl, that's completely changing her character.

But that's just a rumor. If they're not real, and she can finally do MJ's backstory justice on the big screen, then I'll happily accept Zendaya as Mary Jane. If the rumors are true, then it's just one more time Marvel shoved MJ into a corner.

This post is absolutely perfect !

The problem about Michelle going through an arc for a whole movie to become MJ is that when she arrives at that point, she's now only reached the point of being about to go through the arc we actually want to see her go through: ie superficial party girl whom we find out has more substance than we and Peter first thought.

It would be like watching a whole movie where a selfless and humble Dr Strange goes through an arc to become the proud, selfish and arrogant surgeon we find himself as at the beginning of the Dr Strange movie only to have to watch him go through another arc to see him become more selfless and humble again and the hero we know him to be.

This exactly. That really sucks tbh.

And I get that doing a reboot might not be easy for them, that they want to be different from the previous versions but 616!MJ was actually never done right in movies yet, so it would have been refreshing and you know, nice.

 

[Knight_SV]

Maybe i'm a minority here, but if these revealment by elmayimbe is true then i really done with this movie. I love mcu and spidey so much since i was little kid. So far the casting of this movie was very doubtful at best for me..... I really disagree with chaning MJ's race, since she is iconic love interrest from marvel, changing her character for the sake of change and diversity is just didn't right. True zendaya was beautiful and stunning, but she just not the one who should play Mj

 

[harryoscop]

What I don't understand is why they're using classic name from the comics.

 

[KalvinEllis]

That page from Sins Past lol. Great art wasted on terrible story.

Oh crap, indeed it was. lol I thought Straczynski did a good job on ASM, except Sins Past and OMD, but the latter was Quesada's baby anyway.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Oh crap, indeed it was. lol I thought Straczynski did a good job on ASM, except Sins Past and OMD, but the latter was Quesada's baby anyway.

JMS's version of OMD was worse. His version would have erased everything after ASM #100 I believe.

 

[KalvinEllis]

JMS's version of OMD was worse. His version would have erased everything after ASM #100 I believe.

 

[KalvinEllis]

definitely of the impression that she is a significantly better choice than either of these girls.

But I'm just hoping for red hair.

Well, I think Dunst actually looked pretty fine.

Same goes for Shailene.

As you can see, both actresses were capable of pulling off the "MJ look". But for some reason Sony decided that MJ should be kind of plain looking in the movies. And Marvel seems to have taken it even further in Homecoming.

 

[Galactus123]

That picture of Dunst is so photoshopped. I think she looked great as MJ

 

[X Knight]

Yep, Tinkerer is a pissed off Stark industries employee who wants to get back at Tony for firing him so he makes tech for Vulture & Shocker apparently. Let me remind you that this is happening in a SPIDER-MAN movie and not an Iron Man movie where it should

ah, I see. didn't know that.

I mean, on some level, it makes sense and could work.

but, as you said, this is the Spider-Man movie, not another Iron Man movie.

 

[KalvinEllis]

That picture of Dunst is so photoshopped. I think she looked great as MJ

I didn't think it's photoshopped, but I guess it could be. She did look good anyway.

 

[X Knight]

There's no denying the popularity of MJ. OMD caused a complete uproar in the comic community for how horribly it handled the dissolution of the marriage and now 8 years-ish later we STILL have people clamoring for a reunion between the two. The RYV series published last year went thru 4 printings. And imo the upcoming RYV series headed by Gerry Conway is going to outsell the main ASM book. MJ's popularity is definitely a major thing...besides the talk going on over the internet about the movie, MJ's inclusion in the IIM comic series boosted sales and if I'm not mistaken, MJ on the cover of ASM #15 of this year sold more copies than the previous 14 save for maybe the first issue. Yes, she's undoubtedly very popular.

But, she's also just a supporting character. Not like Star Lord who is essentially a main character in the Guardians and Marvel did a complete change on him to the point where someone who is familar with the comics may not have recognized him. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge MJ supporter and fan. I adore her and consider her one of the best, if not the best supporting characters in all of Marvel. However, we're talking about a simple change in color of skin while still keeping the characterization intact. All of this is still speculation but she may end up dressing more like 616 MJ and reveal she's a natural redhead all along--only using the brown hair as a cover up to hide the fact she's a model.

And going off of appearance, not meaning to take shots at Kirsten nor Shailene who are both pretty in their own right, but Zendaya has the appearance to where she would be believable as a model, imo. As in she could actually attain that status. But with appearances, I'd rather have a good character over just having a look to them. Kirsten has white skin and went to the red hair but her characterization sucked.

The emboldened...Ultimate comics MJ is not like 616 MJ. So, no, they are not all consistent. Ultimate MJ is actually very much like TSSM Gwen. Starts off as the brainy pal and dressing in baggy clothes only to undergo a physical transformation of sorts. I believe Marvel is using both Ultimate and SLMJ as influences for the character...so we'll most likely get an amalgamation of the character to include those and 616.

At this point, I am just glad there's this much heated debate going on with regard to MJ. It only confirms that she is still considered such an important character. Especially after what happened in SM3 and then how Emma Stone's portrayal brought out the Gwen shippers. But now, I've seen many saying MJ is Peter's greatest love, which I believe to be true, but it's good to see that type of passion for the character. She's not had a good run over the past decade in the movies and comics.

I agree that Ultimate MJ isn't quite the same as 616 MJ. But, I don't think she was drastically different from 616 MJ, certainly not to the point of seemingly being the total opposite character.

Yeah, she was a nerd and dressed more conservatively at the start, but she was never plain looking. She was still pretty from the start - her beauty was never deemphasized. Nerdy MJ may not have been "bombshell hot" like 616, but she was more like the cute, attractive girl next door type.

And I don't remember how awkward Ultimate MJ was, was she awkward?

She certainly didn't seem awkward to the point of being bookish.

When I read Ultimate, I never got the feeling I was reading a MJ who felt like a totally different character from her 616 counter part. She was just a slightly nerdier version who started out as Peter's best friend and confidant.

[Yt]HRlPkhvkkHc[/MEDIA]

This may have already been brought up, but one of the hosts on Collider talked Zendaya's acting at 5:40.

tl;dr version if you don't want to watch, but the female host talks about how she used to go for nick/disney shows and how directors wrote notes on the script talking about watch Zendaya b/c she had really good comedic timing, so a lot directors for these shows used Zendaya as a reference.

This was interesting to hear, you can almost kind of infer that Zendaya's comedic timing was one of the qualities that got her the part, there's no doubt that Homecoming will have some comedy in it what with it being a marvel movie and being inspired by John Hughes movies.

that's ironic then, because they make Z's MJ super dry and awkward and bookish, which doesn't sound like it would highlight her comedic timing very much.

you would think playful, sassy, fun loving MJ would be a better vehicle to highlight Zendaya's comedic timing.

 

[X Knight]

This is MJ at 11-13 year old :

She has nothing to do with the MJ in Homecoming.At 16, her family was already extremely messy, and if she lives already with her aunt that means her mother already died. Her 'happy go girl' persona should already be here.
I'm suprised so many people are okay with such big changes.It's like Peter being the popular footballer player in HS and slowly becoming an introvert?

thank you for posting this. I had been wondering if any version of comic MJ had dealt with her younger years. And this just shows that she developed the "happy, center-of-attention, party girl" as a façade early on to cope with her family troubles.

She did not cope by introverting and withdrawing and becoming a super dry, awkward, bookish, frumpy looking girl. It's just the opposite.

and your Peter analogy is one I myself have been making several times.

it's taking a character to the opposite extreme of what they're supposed to be, only so you can have them go through a transformation story arc to get them to become the character type they're supposed to be.

what?? it doesn't make sense. it's backwards!!

 

[Spider-Gnome]

that's ironic then, because they make Z's MJ super dry and awkward and bookish, which doesn't sound like it would highlight her comedic timing very much.

you would think playful, sassy, fun loving MJ would be a better vehicle to highlight Zendaya's comedic timing.

It's called dry wit. I'm sure she will display that comic timing when she's playing the so called Lindsey Wier type character.

And odds are, she will still use that comedic timing when she becomes the sassy flirty MJ.

 

[X Knight]

It's called dry wit. I'm sure she will display that comic timing when she's playing the so called Lindsey Wier type character.

And odds are, she will still use that comedic timing when she becomes the sassy flirty MJ.

Is MJ a character who's known for her dry wit?

That's not the impression I got, but I may be wrong.

 

[Oscorp]

ah, I see. didn't know that.

I mean, on some level, it makes sense and could work.

but, as you said, this is the Spider-Man movie, not another Iron Man movie.

Remember, while it may be true it's also not confirmed. It's also not confirmed that Tinkerer will be out for Stark personally, even if it was Stark who fired him.

Actually, it's the same thing with this whole MJ thing. It's not confirmed, even if it feels likely to be true.

 

[ernesth100]

For the love of God Zendeya is a beautiful woman and a good actor? We can't leave it at that?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Is MJ a character who's known for her dry wit?

That's not the impression I got, but I may be wrong.

Not in the comics. But in THIS iteration (this MCU version of the character) based on the Lindsey from "Freaks and Geeks" description of footage, and the fact it is a comedy ala John Hughes, it sounds like she has a dry wit in her pre party girl phase.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

There was an Asian chick Flash hit on in the drama club. You could make that girl Cindy Moon.

People are freaking out because Marvel may be differently portraying MJ's early teen years than what was seen in Parallel Lives, which was originally written as an out-of-continuity tale IIRC, and you want to change Sha-Shan? There is a vocal but small contingent who would freak out.

She's not had a good run over the past decade in the movies and comics.

No doubt, and it really sucks when you revisit JMS's run and see the true potential for her character. She was great in that run (and I loved most of it outside of the obvious).

 

[X Knight]

For the love of God Zendeya is a beautiful woman and a good actor? We can't leave it at that?

because being beautiful and a good actor doesn't always make you right for a particular role.

Not in the comics. But in THIS iteration (this MCU version of the character) based on the Lindsey from "Freaks and Geeks" description of footage, and the fact it is a comedy ala John Hughes, it sounds like she has a dry wit in her pre party girl phase.

thanks.

I just looked up Lindsey from Freaks and Geeks.

and that doesn't even remotely sound like what MJ is supposed to be - aside from being intelligent and considerate which fits Ultimate MJ. but the rest of it sounds nothing at all like MJ or how she would behave.

it's the wrong character type for MJ. so why base your version of MJ on a character type that doesn't really fit her?

that makes no sense to me.

it's like the director is trying to "pigeonhole" Spider-Man characters into character types from other stories he may like ( Freaks and Geeks, Breakfast Clubs ) even when they don't seem to fit.

it's like the saying - trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

People are freaking out because Marvel may be differently portraying MJ's early teen years than what was seen in Parallel Lives, which was originally written as an out-of-continuity tale IIRC, and you want to change Sha-Shan? There is a vocal but small contingent who would freak out.



No doubt, and it really sucks when you revisit JMS's run and see the true potential for her character. She was great in that run (and I loved most of it outside of the obvious).

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic about Sha-Shan?

Is Sha-Shan an actual character from the Spider-Man comics? I just assumed she was created for the SSM show.