They Got It Wrong???!!! Or Did They?!?!?????

[Mike059jig]

What an insult to cyclops..just Wow..people might not like him..but know when his presence it needed..

 

[YJ1]

in fact the comics were better when he WASN'T the main focus. The main characters in X3 should have been Phoenix first and Cyclops second.

Says you. I like how some people state their own opinion as absolute fact. Like Robin91939, I think the movies got it right. It would be so illogical for Logan to be written out of the story after the first two films. Like it or not, Logan is our guide through the movie universe.

Fans need to forget their bias and their insistence that these films follow the books exactly. Just because something appears in print doesn't mean that it has to be strictly adhered to. Hell, the Ultimate Universe bastardizes the REAL Marvel Universe just as much as Hollywood does and I rarely see an uproar about that.

 

[kevhulk73]

Kurosawa is a Wolvie hater ...

just ignore it it'll go away



But in reponse to the thread, i have few observations:

you have to leave behind the helfire club, shiar guard, and battle on the moon and look at the overall themes

1) in the comics She is manipulated by the hell fire club to turn against the Xmen----------Magneto steps in and does the same thus filling the role of the hellfire club

2) Xavier goes to Jeans parents house and confronts her there---- The same scenario occurs in the movie


3) In the final battle ( comics) jean realizes that she was losing control of the pheonix force and decides top sacrifice her self--------the movie supposedly has the same scenario except with wolvie as the executoiner rather than a laser cannon.

It s been reported she holds back ( intentionally)long enough for wolvie to do what has to be done, therefore she saved the world.


now do i think Scott should have been the one to say the last goodbyes....yeah, but if you look at the overall parallels then they're there.


kev

 

[Loganbabe]

I personally hate the character, but yes, the general public ate him up. There's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

Yeah, obviously you´re trying to say that your standarts in art and culture are so high that you distinguish yourself from the stupid, brainless "general public", or the idiots who happen to be Wolverine fans. Right.
It´s really funny to see Cyclops fans demanding respect, when some don´t show an ounce of respect for other fans´taste.

 

[ginny_weasley]

I don't mind Wolverine having an important role in the films. Lot's of fans like him and he provides good perspective....

BUT, it's still called X-Men, as in pural. There is meant to be team dynamics, not a story that revolves around one character.

No one character should ever steal the show - play a large part if the story dictates, sure, and in X1 and X2 I think the story DID dictate a large presence of Wolverine. But this time around he needn't gank all the pivotal roles that weren't his to take. Give him plenty of screentime, squeez him into the plot a little more - fine by me. But don't have him trounce all over everyone else to do it.

 

[kevhulk73]

Yeah, obviously you´re trying to say that your standarts in art and culture are so high that you distinguish yourself from the stupid, brainless "general public", or the idiots who happen to be Wolverine fans. Right.
It´s really funny to see Cyclops fans demanding respect, when some don´t show an ounce of respect for other fans´taste.

well said

 

[Radagast_Prime]

The Cyclops loving on this board is absolutely hysterical. I have never meet an X-Fan who actually likes him, never. He is a loser. A controlling dick who likes to think he is a nice guy and that's why everybody treats him like crap. He doesn't realize the reason everybody hates him is because how badly he sucks at life. This so-called leader runs away like a wussy teenager the minute his feelings are hurt and leaves running the X-Men to the adults. I think their similarities to Cyclops are the reason fanboys have such a hard on for him. It's like looking in a mirror.

 

[Aptman]

The Cyclops loving on this board is absolutely hysterical. I have never meet an X-Fan who actually likes him, never. He is a loser. A controlling dick who likes to think he is a nice guy and that's why everybody treats him like crap. He doesn't realize the reason everybody hates him is because how badly he sucks at life. This so-called leader runs away like a wussy teenager the minute his feelings are hurt and leaves running the X-Men to the adults. I think their similarities to Cyclops are the reason fanboys have such a hard on for him. It's like looking in a mirror.

Wow...

anyway...Is this movie going to be big? yes. Is it going to make lots of money? yes. IS it going to create even more wolvie fans? yes, eventhough they'll wonder why Wolverine looks so short on the comicbook pages. Is this going to be a good movie as far as movies go? it has a good chance. But is it going to be a good X-Men movie? probably not.

X-Men is about the team. Its about the interactions of the people on the team and how they all work together to overcome the odds. This movie is more about Wolverine's journey with his supprting cast members. Good Wolverine movie (that happens to take plot element belonging to Cyclops...which isn't my point at the moment), bad X-Men movie.

That's what I'm complaining about personally. I want X-Men...I get Wolverine.

 

[Kurosawa]

The Cyclops loving on this board is absolutely hysterical. I have never meet an X-Fan who actually likes him, never. He is a loser. A controlling dick who likes to think he is a nice guy and that's why everybody treats him like crap. He doesn't realize the reason everybody hates him is because how badly he sucks at life. This so-called leader runs away like a wussy teenager the minute his feelings are hurt and leaves running the X-Men to the adults. I think their similarities to Cyclops are the reason fanboys have such a hard on for him. It's like looking in a mirror.

This is the attitude and the opinion that the movie portrayal of Cyclops causes.

 

[Kurosawa]

Yeah, obviously you´re trying to say that your standarts in art and culture are so high that you distinguish yourself from the stupid, brainless "general public", or the idiots who happen to be Wolverine fans. Right.
It´s really funny to see Cyclops fans demanding respect, when some don´t show an ounce of respect for other fans´taste.

Oh, please. Like Wolverine fans ever have to see the character get humiliated or screwed over.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Cheering for Wolverine is like cheering for Bill Gates to win the lottery.

 

[Kurosawa]

Says you. I like how some people state their own opinion as absolute fact. Like Robin91939, I think the movies got it right. It would be so illogical for Logan to be written out of the story after the first two films. Like it or not, Logan is our guide through the movie universe.

Fans need to forget their bias and their insistence that these films follow the books exactly. Just because something appears in print doesn't mean that it has to be strictly adhered to. Hell, the Ultimate Universe bastardizes the REAL Marvel Universe just as much as Hollywood does and I rarely see an uproar about that.

There's a difference between him having a strong part and completely dominating things. He's given too much face time to the point that it hurts other characters, not just Cyclops. Like when Stryker's men busted into the X-Mansion in X2. Wolverine sends Colossus off to baby-sit while he does all the fighting. Why couldn't they have given Colossus a chance to kick a little ass? Instead, as always, Wolverine gets all the glory.

 

[kevhulk73]

Oh, please. Like Wolverine fans ever have to see the character get humiliated or screwed over.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Cheering for Wolverine is like cheering for Bill Gates to win the lottery.

Again,
poor arguement, Cyclops was well played by Mr. Marsden , has been in character and nothing has been out of character for him ( stoic, whitebread, leader type).... you're simply mad because he's killed off. an agrument that i can agree with...

 

[fallenAngel]

What about Rogue?

In that interview with Pyro, Iceman, Rogue and Callisto, they said the favorite character for men was Wolverine, and the favorite for women was Rogue. I'm not sure if this it totally true, but if it is Rogue gets pretty screwed in the movie as well.

And sometimes it feels like liking Wolverine so much is easy because it's like cheering for the Yankees. I don't hate wolverine at all, I just like him better when he's the muscle of the group you know has more to him, but you aren't exactly sure what because he doesn't talk about himself.

And it's not like anyone thought they were all of the sudden going to reinvent the wheel. It's just sort of a cop out, the reason why X men is so popular is because of the smorgasboard of characters. Wolverine may be the favorite poster boy, but to those who truly read the comics and have followed the 40 year history, know that there was a time before him, and that there are other characters as well. And in the past two X men movies, he had a role that only he could fill, it worked with the story. In the Last Stand, it is far to forced and though it works in relation to the past films as well as emotionally, I don't personally want to see it. Seeing Wolverine cry about Jean, after he tells Scott to move on is cheap and bad writing.

If there is an x4. Logan will probably be "Jean, Jean who?" and most likely start banging Emma Frost.

 

[Kurosawa]

Again,
poor arguement, Cyclops was well played by Mr. Marsden , has been in character and nothing has been out of character for him ( stoic, whitebread, leader type).... you're simply mad because he's killed off. an agrument that i can agree with...

Not only did they kill him, but they gave his role in the Dark Phoenix Saga to Wolverine, a character many hardcore Cyclops fans dislike.

So it's death and then they rub salt in the wounds.

Wolverine fans never have to see this kind of stuff done to their character. It's easy to be a Wolverine fan. You never have to see him degraded or made to look like a loser.

 

[kevhulk73]

There's a difference between him having a strong part and completely dominating things. He's given too much face time to the point that it hurts other characters, not just Cyclops. Like when Stryker's men busted into the X-Mansion in X2. Wolverine sends Colossus off to baby-sit while he does all the fighting. Why couldn't they have given Colossus a chance to kick a little ass? Instead, as always, Wolverine gets all the glory.

Wrong again the scanario called for him to have Collosus protect the kids....he rather would be taken By Stryker than to see anymore X kids be enslaved......he was making a sacrifice.
also , simply put, wolvie is there do do the things that the others wouldn't....it why Xavier has him there.

 

[Kurosawa]

What about Rogue?

In that interview with Pyro, Iceman, Rogue and Callisto, they said the favorite character for men was Wolverine, and the favorite for women was Rogue. I'm not sure if this it totally true, but if it is Rogue gets pretty screwed in the movie as well.

And sometimes it feels like liking Wolverine so much is easy because it's like cheering for the Yankees. I don't hate wolverine at all, I just like him better when he's the muscle of the group you know has more to him, but you aren't exactly sure what because he doesn't talk about himself.

And it's not like anyone thought they were all of the sudden going to reinvent the wheel. It's just sort of a cop out, the reason why X men is so popular is because of the smorgasboard of characters. Wolverine may be the favorite poster boy, but to those who truly read the comics and have followed the 40 year history, know that there was a time before him, and that there are other characters as well. And in the past two X men movies, he had a role that only he could fill, it worked with the story. In the Last Stand, it is far to forced and though it works in relation to the past films as well as emotionally, I don't personally want to see it. Seeing Wolverine cry about Jean, after he tells Scott to move on is cheap and bad writing.

Although I hate Wolverine, making him into a faux Cyclops in X3 is pretty much a case of writing him out of character just because they're that damn determined he has to be the main character.

 

[Tuppence]

He is who the public wants...he's what they got, and they ate it up.

-R

Really? Not to be rude, but I've gotta say: being the most popular X-man to the general public (or the 3rd most popular Marvel character) is a lot like being the tallest midget. The heights you reach...are still not that extraordinary.

There are 5 superheroes the general public could name: Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, and Spiderman (movie.) (I don't think it's an indication of the quality of the companies that 4 of them are DC heroes, just reality.) Captain America is probably next on the Marvel list, and he's way down there. I don't understand at all why fans think Wolverine is so popular with the general public. None of my friends are comic fans, and if I asked them to name a superhero, I assure you they would name one of the five I listed above. They would not be able to come up with Wolverine.

I read comics now, but I didn't start until 2001 and I saw X-Men when it was first released in 2000. I went to see it because I trusted the director - I had absolutely no idea who these characters were (I might have had some vague sense that Cyclops had a visor and Jean had red hair, but that's it.) I could tell from the movie that I was supposed to like Wolverine, but that was purely script indication and not organic affection. The only moment that really stood out to me was the "Prove it. You're a dick. Okay" exchange between Wolverine and Cyclops. *That* I thought was great - it took the piss out of the stereotypical macho posturing and showed two grown-ups putting aside stupidity and getting the job done (and turning aside cliche movie expectations; just what the film needed.)

Granted, I am completely the wrong person to find Wolverine appealing (the only emotion he inspires in me is the urge to shake him and yell "Cooperate or get the **** out of the way!") And I think there's some merit to what you said about the first two films. But the film universe is established; we know who these people are, what they want, and what they've resolved. With Jean as the focus in the 3rd film, there's absolutely no artistic reason to have Wolverine be the center as well. The only reasons to put Wolverine in the center again are outside considerations; money and toy-selling. I'd rather have a good movie. And there's absolutely no indication that the film-makers have managed one. Not really their fault; studio politics will happen, and writers have no power at all. But trying to find artistic value in their politically directed writing choices seems a futile endeavor at best.

 

[kevhulk73]

Not only did they kill him, but they gave his role in the Dark Phoenix Saga to Wolverine, a character many hardcore Cyclops fans dislike.

So it's death and then they rub salt in the wounds.

Wolverine fans never have to see this kind of stuff done to their character. It's easy to be a Wolverine fan. You never have to see him degraded or made to look like a loser.

Sorry, do you actually think thats why they purposely did that?

do you think they actually did that to piss the Cyclops fans off because they have nothing better to do?

 

[Kurosawa]

Really? Not to be rude, but I've gotta say: being the most popular X-man to the general public (or the 3rd most popular Marvel character) is a lot like being the tallest midget. The heights you reach...are still not that extraordinary.

There are 5 superheroes the general public could name: Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, and Spiderman (movie.) (I don't think it's an indication of the quality of the companies that 4 of them are DC heroes, just reality.) Captain America is probably next on the Marvel list, and he's way down there. I don't understand at all why fans think Wolverine is so popular with the general public. None of my friends are comic fans, and if I asked them to name a superhero, I assure you they would name one of the five I listed above. They would not be able to come up with Wolverine.

I read comics now, but I didn't start until 2001 and I saw X-Men when it was first released in 2000. I went to see it because I trusted the director - I had absolutely no idea who these characters were (I might have had some vague sense that Cyclops had a visor and Jean had red hair, but that's it.) I could tell from the movie that I was supposed to like Wolverine, but that was purely script indication and not organic affection. The only moment that really stood out to me was the "Prove it. You're a dick. Okay" exchange between Wolverine and Cyclops. *That* I thought was great - it took the piss out of the stereotypical macho posturing and showed two grown-ups putting aside stupidity and getting the job done (and turning aside cliche movie expectations; just what the film needed.)

Granted, I am completely the wrong person to find Wolverine appealing (the only emotion he inspires in me is the urge to shake him and yell "Cooperate or get the **** out of the way!") And I think there's some merit to what you said about the first two films. But the film universe is established; we know who these people are, what they want, and what they've resolved. With Jean as the focus in the 3rd film, there's absolutely no artistic reason to have Wolverine be the center as well. The only reasons to put Wolverine in the center again are outside considerations; money and toy-selling. I'd rather have a good movie. And there's absolutely no indication that the film-makers have managed one. Not really their fault; studio politics will happen, and writers have no power at all. But trying to find artistic value in their politically directed writing choices seems a futile endeavor at best.

Wolverine's in nowhere near the same class as those DC characters named. Not as a character and definately not as a cultural icon.

 

[Loganbabe]

Oh, please. Like Wolverine fans ever have to see the character get humiliated or screwed over.

I read comics and I´ve seen him being screwed over and humiliated enough on the last few years, thank you very much.
Whedon writes him like he´s Homer Simpson, Millar wrote him as a co-star in his own title, Bendis made him look stupid with the Avengers. He´s out of Uncanny, he does nothing at X-Men, he´s humiliated in Spider-Man comics.
The only good Wolverine nowadays is the one from the movieverse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Cheering for Wolverine is like cheering for Bill Gates to win the lottery.

What´s the point of making comparisons between real people and fictional characters?

 

[fallenAngel]

The only moment that really stood out to me was the "Prove it. You're a dick. Okay" exchange between Wolverine and Cyclops. *That* I thought was great - it took the piss out of the stereotypical macho posturing and showed two grown-ups putting aside stupidity and getting the job done (and turning aside cliche movie expectations; just what the film needed.)

I think we need more interactions between Scott and Logan. I really like their relationship because it is realistic and interesting/entertaining. They are both men and as such find common ground to fight side by side, even though they are in love with the same woman and hate eachother.

It's about the balance. Too much of one thing is boring, no matter how "interesting" Wolverine may be. His Bad ass persona seems to be a tired tool this time around. I would feel the same way seeing uptight Scott running around shooting things.

 

[Aptman]

Really? Not to be rude, but I've gotta say: being the most popular X-man to the general public (or the 3rd most popular Marvel character) is a lot like being the tallest midget. The heights you reach...are still not that extraordinary.

There are 5 superheroes the general public could name: Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, and Spiderman (movie.) (I don't think it's an indication of the quality of the companies that 4 of them are DC heroes, just reality.) Captain America is probably next on the Marvel list, and he's way down there. I don't understand at all why fans think Wolverine is so popular with the general public. None of my friends are comic fans, and if I asked them to name a superhero, I assure you they would name one of the five I listed above. They would not be able to come up with Wolverine.

I read comics now, but I didn't start until 2001 and I saw X-Men when it was first released in 2000. I went to see it because I trusted the director - I had absolutely no idea who these characters were (I might have had some vague sense that Cyclops had a visor and Jean had red hair, but that's it.) I could tell from the movie that I was supposed to like Wolverine, but that was purely script indication and not organic affection. The only moment that really stood out to me was the "Prove it. You're a dick. Okay" exchange between Wolverine and Cyclops. *That* I thought was great - it took the piss out of the stereotypical macho posturing and showed two grown-ups putting aside stupidity and getting the job done (and turning aside cliche movie expectations; just what the film needed.)

Granted, I am completely the wrong person to find Wolverine appealing (the only emotion he inspires in me is the urge to shake him and yell "Cooperate or get the **** out of the way!") And I think there's some merit to what you said about the first two films. But the film universe is established; we know who these people are, what they want, and what they've resolved. With Jean as the focus in the 3rd film, there's absolutely no artistic reason to have Wolverine be the center as well. The only reasons to put Wolverine in the center again are outside considerations; money and toy-selling. I'd rather have a good movie. And there's absolutely no indication that the film-makers have managed one. Not really their fault; studio politics will happen, and writers have no power at all. But trying to find artistic value in their politically directed writing choices seems a futile endeavor at best.

Welcome to the HYPE!!!

...you have no idea how much I like you right now...

 

[kevhulk73]

I read comics and I´ve seen him being screwed over and humiliated enough on the last few years, thank you very much.
Whedon writes him like he´s Homer Simpson, Millar wrote him as a co-star in his own title, Bendis made him look stupid with the Avengers. He´s out of Uncanny, he does nothing at X-Men, he´s humiliated in Spider-Man comics.
The only good Wolverine nowadays is the one from the movieverse.


What´s the point of making comparisons between real people and fictional characters?

Although i personally dig the Whedon run,



I have to say well said again!

kev

 

[Loganbabe]

Although i personally dig the Whedon run,

I have to say well said again!

Thanks!

I think we need more interactions between Scott and Logan. I really like their relationship because it is realistic and interesting/entertaining. They are both men and as such find common ground to fight side by side, even though they are in love with the same woman and hate eachother.

I have to agree with you there. The Logan/Scott interaction was specially entertaining in X1...I loved when they were insulting each other and Jean was like rolling her eyes, maybe thinking "Men...!" And they shared an emotional moment in X2, it was nice. Yeah, more Logan/Scott in X3 would be interesting to see, I concur.
Cyke is one of my least favorite characters, but I don´t hate him. I just don´t care about him. But the funny thing is that all this Cyke pity party and Wolverine/X3 hatred that some of his fans are promoting around here is making me hate the character. To expect an entire movie to fail and disappoint millions of fans because of one character is selfish and sad, really.

 

[Supreme Power]

X-men, X2: X-men United, and now X3: The Last Stand have something very much in common...Wolverine.

X-men: He is believed until the end to be the "weapon" Magneto is after. He is in virtually every action scene, and it is through HIS eyes that we meet the X-men and experience these fantastic events. In my opinion this was a terrific approach. It worked because he was able to be as shocked as we would be to find ourselves in the same situation. Had it been through, say, Cyclops' or Storms eyes it would not have had the same effect. Plus, with Wolverine, you could already have the X-men an established entity...a big plus for a story with already so many odds and ends. Singer worked this to perfection. Balanced enough of the other characters in, with it centering around Wolverine...who despite what fans what, is what people think of when they think of X-men.

X2: X-men United: The story from the first film continues. The registration act was shot down, so what happens? An Anti-Mutant activist goes off on his own to eliminate the mutants in question. This is a great story, and draws HEAVILY on the terrific graphic novel, GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS. In a near stroke of genius Harris, Dougherty, Penn, and Hayter decided to add one other thing. The intriguing and virtually untold story of Wolverine's past. No one can say that this idea didn't light a little fire in their bellies. It's an interesting one, and it was told well- ambiguously, but thoroughly. Again, there is a good job done by Singer to balance stories. Wolverine's quest for his past, Jean's transformation to the Phoenix, Nightcrawler, Pyro, Rogue and Bobby's romance, and various others. Sure, Cyclops and Professor X took a bit of a back seat, but in GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS, they did as well.

X3: The Last Stand: Wolverine becomes the leader of the X-men. Well, more like second in command, to Storm. We also see Wolverine have a lot of trouble trying to take this role. This isn't out of character for him in the movies or the comics. He isn't all "berserker fury"...he can lead, just not always the way Xavier would want...that's where Storm would come in as his conscious.
Scott is seen and viewed by others as having too much emotional stress, understandably, from loosing the love of his life; his mind is unfit to lead. Storm is ready. She is a great character, despite people's distaste for Halle, Storm has always been somewhat of a leader of the X-men, and even was when Cyclops would be absent. Jean's story as the Phoenix (from all clips I've seen) is awesome. I also love that they made her the "straw that broke the camel’s back" in Eric and Charles' relationship. Beast seems great. Pyro and Iceman are finally full on players. And the Juggernaut and Shadow Cat are great additions. The only concerns I have are that Colossus (my second favorite mutant behind Cyclops), Rogue, and Angel seem underused. But in a movie like this there will always be under developed characters.

Yes, I just recapped six years and three movies. Why? Because of all of the complaining. I am not a "big-time" X-men poster, but I read here daily, and have been around here for a little while...and I don't think people understand that with an X-men movie...there will be a LOT of Wolverine. But to put it in perspective:

If there were an AVENGERS (live action) movie, who would be the lead? Captain America, right? No brainier. Would Iron Man fans get pissed? Would Thor fans? Probably a little, but they would realize that Captain America is the figure head of the group, not just the leader.
And while Wolverine is NOT the leader of the X-men, he is the figure head.

If there were a live action TEEN TITANS movie...who would take the lead? Starfire? No. Cyborg? No. Superboy? eh...No. Robin would. Because he is the figure head of the group. The movie would have all of these characters, but he would be the big "money" hero of the film.

We really have to accept that this is the way things are going to happen. Not just put butts in the seats and sell toys, but because to the general public, Wolverine is the most interesting character, because he has that "bad ass" edge. Why they hold him in higher regard to say, Beast, Colossus, Cyclops, etc I don't know. But since his debut in the 70's he has. It's just smart writing to build the movie AROUND him, which is what they've done...all THREE times. It's not like Ratner made this idea up, because the comics and Singer have done it too.

So I really just hope, and this is wishful thinking, that this can make people pause before they make the "X-MAN" comments, because it's really not necessary. All movies need a central character...for these movies it is Wolverine.

-R

I don't know you, but I like you already.