Batman Begins Things Batman Begins got Right/Wrong

[roach]

Bruce can't simultaneously be a chemist, an engineer, a computer technician, a software engineer, a master detective, and an industrial designer, AND a martial arts combat specialist all by his twenties.

while I agree he also cant be given everything by Lucius

 

[Danielson]

That's true, plus he wouldn't have time to perfect everything.

To me, that's Batman's superpowers is his ability to magically know and learn everything, come up with plans, and get all of his equipment together.

It's a small price to pay though for a little realism. The reason I hate Superman is because there's nothing to root for. Superman is like the kid in class who got straight A's on everything, was All-State basketball and baseball, had a hot girlfriend, was 6'5", ripped, everyone loved him, he started up peace groups, and spoke 8 languages. You just can't feel sympathy when he complains about college tuition rates because his parents are poor.

 

[Mladen]

How do you know Nolan's Bruce didn't take courses in criminology, forensics, etc.?

? rewatch the film. at that point in his life he's too self-absorbed and thinks killing joe chill will fix all of his problems. He doesn't even decide to fight for justice until after Katie Holmes slaps him around.

Otherwise, most likely he'd be studying business (considering that he expects to take over Wayne Enterprises)... I've never heard of any universities offering criminology and forensic science as business degree elective units?

 

[Angeloz]

That's true, plus he wouldn't have time to perfect everything.

To me, that's Batman's superpowers is his ability to magically know and learn everything, come up with plans, and get all of his equipment together.

It's a small price to pay though for a little realism. The reason I hate Superman is because there's nothing to root for. Superman is like the kid in class who got straight A's on everything, was All-State basketball and baseball, had a hot girlfriend, was 6'5", ripped, everyone loved him, he started up peace groups, and spoke 8 languages. You just can't feel sympathy when he complains about college tuition rates because his parents are poor.

I guess you're not an immigrant then (nor am I but I like the friendly alien). By the way I love Supes more than Bats (second favourite). Not to mention he wasn't always into girls in a lot of his history (but rather avoided getting "trapped" into marriage by them).

Angeloz

 

[Superwoman Prime]

? rewatch the film. at that point in his life he's too self-absorbed and thinks killing joe chill will fix all of his problems. He doesn't even decide to fight for justice until after Katie Holmes slaps him around.

Otherwise, most likely he'd be studying business (considering that he expects to take over Wayne Enterprises)... I've never heard of any universities offering criminology and forensic science as business degree elective units?

It's a possibility Bruce studied criminology unless stated otherwise in the movie. And it wasn't. Derr.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Its crazy to me people will willingly sacrifice Batmans most important ability on the alter of "badass"

"Batmans a badass"

its like none of you have ever picked up a comic book featuring batman in your lives.

 

[Angeloz]

Its crazy to me people will willingly sacrifice Batmans most important ability on the alter of "badass"

"Batmans a badass"

its like none of you have ever picked up a comic book featuring batman in your lives.

Still being controversial. 'Cos you could say that you would prefer that he has studied criminology instead of criticising people. But say what you think is better and maybe why. By the way I've read comics and can accept more than one version of his origin and character. I grant you that doesn't mean I like all versions of him. I do like the "Batman Begins" version however. I hope I like this year's film even more. Time will tell.

Angeloz

 

[Nightwing1977]

Its crazy to me people will willingly sacrifice Batmans most important ability on the alter of "badass"

"Batmans a badass"

its like none of you have ever picked up a comic book featuring batman in your lives.

Are you sure you ever pick a comic book yourself then? Many of us who enjoyed Batman Begubs do read a comic book with Batman in it. And we know he is a badass in BB. Maybe you're just too blind to not see that or because it not how you picture him as in BB or the fact that you....hate BB. Stop this kind of behavior, but you will never learn anyway. Guess being banned for a week won't help. Batman is badass in BB, so stop acting like we don't know what a "badass" Batman is like with thinking he is in BB when you don't. Ever heard of disagreeing with someone's opinion without putting them down like you're doing right now?

 

[BatJeff7786]

The reason I hate Superman is because there's nothing to root for. Superman is like the kid in class who got straight A's on everything, was All-State basketball and baseball, had a hot girlfriend, was 6'5", ripped, everyone loved him, he started up peace groups, and spoke 8 languages. You just can't feel sympathy when he complains about college tuition rates because his parents are poor.

I view Superman as someone to look up to. A guy who tries to do everything right and be a helpful, meaningful member of society. It's something we should all aspire to be.

 

[Angeloz]

Nicely said (about Superman) BatJeff7786.

Are you sure you ever pick a comic book yourself then? Many of us who enjoyed Batman Begubs do read a comic book with Batman in it. And we know he is a badass in BB. Maybe you're just too blind to not see that or because it not how you picture him as in BB or the fact that you....hate BB. Stop this kind of behavior, but you will never learn anyway. Guess being banned for a week won't help. Batman is badass in BB, so stop acting like we don't know what a "badass" Batman is like with thinking he is in BB when you don't. Ever heard of disagreeing with someone's opinion without putting them down like you're doing right now?

Begubs? Wayward fingers?

I really suspect you've got your hands at a wrong angle from normal (touch typing).

Angeloz

 

[Mladen]

It's a possibility Bruce studied criminology unless stated otherwise in the movie. And it wasn't. Derr.

thats a pretty dumb argument. you could use it to prove anything.
its a possibility Bruce slept with his professors for marks in college.
Its a possibility Alfred is a robot.

All we can go on is whats implied in the characterisation and events in the film. and there's nothing in there that suggests he's interested in fighting crime at that point (the thought doesn't even occur to him until after joe is killed).

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

I view Superman as someone to look up to. A guy who tries to do everything right and be a helpful, meaningful member of society. It's something we should all aspire to be.

Yeah. Superman's an idol, not something to identify with. He is not Peter Parker.

 

[Nightwing1977]

Nicely said (about Superman)

Begubs? Wayward fingers?

I really suspect you've got your hands at a wrong angle from normal (touch typing).

Angeloz

I was typing when it was quite late at night, so sue me. I'm usually good with typing the right letter without looking. Guess I did it wrong this time.

 

[Angeloz]

I was typing when it was quite late at night, so sue me. I'm usually good with typing the right letter without looking. Guess I did it wrong this time.

Just teasing (especially with the word that it happened on). Thanks for confirming it was a typo.

Angeloz

 

[Superwoman Prime]

thats a pretty dumb argument. you could use it to prove anything.
its a possibility Bruce slept with his professors for marks in college.
Its a possibility Alfred is a robot.

We're not talking about sexual pursuasion. We're talking about a study that Bruce Wayne is known for in the comics... it'd be in character for him to take up an interest in criminals in teenage years, early adulthood. While it's never stated explicitly in BB, it remains a probability.

Nolan can credibly state in either of the next two films, that Bruce has knowledge of basic forensics (for instance) from his early years... without it actually being a major retcon.

All we can go on is whats implied in the characterisation and events in the film. and there's nothing in there that suggests he's interested in fighting crime at that point (the thought doesn't even occur to him until after joe is killed).

It had obviously been on his mind for quite a long while, in some form or another... considering his parents were shot by a dirty criminal. Bruce was clearly motivated by vengeance, which before leaving Gotham, he was convinced was synonymous with justice.

 

[Angeloz]

Well he did know how to fight more than one person based on the prison fight (so he didn't ignore how to defend himself at least). As for the rest (knowledge of criminology) I guess we'll wait and see. I'm not that fussed over it.

Angeloz

 

[Nightwing1977]

Just teasing (especially with the word that it happened on). Thanks for confirming it was a typo.

Angeloz

I know you were teasing. That why I put the smilies there.

 

[sasquatchs]

But I don't agree with the idea that giving characters complex and realistic motivations is dumbing it down? Filling in the enormous hole of Bruce's training in the far east and his motivations prior to becoming Batman was frankly a huge improvement (I for one found the Chill parts vital to understanding how a quest for revenge can turn into a righteous crusade against ALL criminals... the comics always seem to gloss over the most interesting parts of how he became Batman, his formative teen years and early twenties). Dumbing it down would be taking it all for granted and skipping over things like character development in favor of a big bloated action movie (which is kind of what happens in the last half hour of BB anyway...

What complex motivation though? All that's shown is a desire for vengeance turned towards Superman-like altruism once he becomes Batman. There's no great contradiction or darkness in Bruce's characterization, it's all very simple and a bit boring. The biggest failing of Begins is that in trying to show Batman's existence is possible, they took it too far and make donning the mask seem like the rational thing to do for a normal person. And Bruce is very normal in Begins. The backstory is mostly concerned with tedious logistics and training, not deep psychological insight.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Dressing up as a bat and fighting crime is not a rational act. Even Ra's sort of pokes fun at this.

Bruce may not have been portrayed with a lot of complexity in Begins, but he was hardly a normal person. He was the only child of a very wealthy family, who loses his parents at a young age, and he did incredibly abnormal things---like give up his posh lifestyle to go run around the world and study criminals and join a terrorist ninja cult.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

We're not talking about sexual pursuasion. We're talking about a study that Bruce Wayne is known for in the comics... it'd be in character for him to take up an interest in criminals in teenage years, early adulthood. While it's never stated explicitly in BB, it remains a probability.

Nolan can credibly state in either of the next two films, that Bruce has knowledge of basic forensics (for instance) from his early years... without it actually being a major retcon.

Exactly. This is what I've been arguing for the past 3 years. I think there are enough gaps in the 7 (right?) years Bruce disappeared from Gotham to fill anything in, and it wouldn't contradict anything we saw in Begins.

Even though it was an origin story, the movie glossed over a lot of that training/exploration period. It did so because it was focusing mainly on the story within that story - Bruce's relationship with Ra's. Most of what we see is his time with Ra's, but obviously there was a lot more to it prior to their meeting. It's explicitly referenced in that Bruce already knows several styles of martial arts when he meets Ra's.

Now, one can argue whether or not it was a wise decision on Nolan's part to gloss over the rest of his training years, but that's a different argument. The fact is that there is more evidence to suggest that he had more extensive training beyond Ra's than there is to suggest that he didn't.

And that includes sleuthing skills and maybe even some chemistry (before we get into the "then why did Fox have to make the antidote?" argument, the answer is because Bruce was...wait for it...unconscious for 2 days, and then busy out as Batman?..) - even though the "It was some kind of hallucinogen, weaponized in aerosol form" seems pretty elementary, it was obviously included to show that he isn't a complete buffoon in these areas.

Like I said, you can argue whether Nolan did justice to these facets of the character or just glossed over them, but it's hard to deny that they are indeed a part of the filmic character, whether they are displayed enough onscreen or not.

(Which brings me to one of the ultimate ironies of fan reaction to this film - there's so much bile against this film in regards to two subjects - "lack of detecting" and "lack of subtlety - it bashes you over the head repeatedly".

It's funny because one of the elements Nolan didn't bash over our skulls was his detective skills, which are clearly illustrated at certain points throughout without being so in your face; they require a more discerning eye and at least a basic knowledge of Batman. But because of this, some people claim that they simply are not there.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

Bravo, Paste Pot Pete. Very well put.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Three years later and still a great flick, the only thing I honestly think it got wrong was a few visual elements. And even still, it's nothing that was "wrong," simply a couple of visual things I disliked. Nolan did a terrific job on just about every level.

 

[escobar2248]

Three years later and still a great flick, the only thing I honestly think it got wrong was a few visual elements. And even still, it's nothing that was "wrong," simply a couple of visual things I disliked. Nolan did a terrific job on just about every level.

Couldn't agree more. BB is one of those movies I can watch unlimited amounts and never get tired of it. There are certain elements of every movie/story that has holes in it.

If we all wanted realistic/grounded stories, we wouldn't be comic book fans. We be on some newspaper forum bickering.

 

[Cain]

The older it gets the more problems I see. I have a lot of issues with this flick and will never be able to love it like some of you others do. At the same time I recognize that it's just Goyer/Nolan's vision of Batman and not mine. I also recognize that it did more good than bad in terms of bringing respectability back to my favorite character as far as the general public and casual comic fans are concerned for that reason I give it much props. That and it also lead to a movie that seems to be a hell of a lot more in line with what I wanted from a Batman reboot that was in vein with the modern age comics, TDK.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

It was a good movie. It is a good movie. THe suit still sucks and Bale isn't as good as some people think for me.