Thor Reinterpreted

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In another thread, I had suggested reinterpreting Thor as a man empowered by the advanced technology of what is popularly known as "ancient astronauts." One poster responded as follows:

Normally I'd have a constructive argument but...no. Are you mad?! That's sabotaging the character. He's supposed to be a god. He's supposed to be far beyond anything that anybody can comprehend. He's supposed to raise questions, inspire both reverence and fear and when he comes down he comes down hard. He is THE Marvel heavy hitter and he defies all science and reasoning. What next? Loki should be a mad scientist?

No, I'm not mad. I just think a character that asks you to temporarily "believe" in literal Nordic gods is simply a stupid character. I reject pagan gods as being utterly irrational, and so for me the character of Thor is an irrational character. If he were a real god, then he wouldn't be a mere superhero - he'd be someone we should bow to and worship. That would be the logical outcome of Thor's being a god.

And what do you mean by "inspire reverence"? People are supposed to "revere" Thor? Why? Think about translating that type of character to film, and not only that but also writing a story with more depth in which Thor's existence has a plausible impact on public thinking. If a character like that stepped into the real world, he would not merely be acknowledged as a superhero; he would drastically overhaul world philosophies and religions. The implications of his existence would be incalculable.

And it's not as if an alternative explanation couldn't have the elements you're after: questioning our worldviews, a sense of mystery, and even a sense of reverence - if, that is, the character prompts us to reconsider the matter of the existence of a Supreme Being, a Creator (which Thor himself obviously is not).

What I'm suggesting is that a writer consider a rational explanation for the ancient "gods" - either deified men (most likely) or extraterrestrials (far less likely, but could be plausibly written for fiction). With either of those scenarios there would actually have been a person called "Thor" who performed amazing feats, and as a result was worshipped by others as a "god," even though they were simply wrong about his having been a god.

I suppose, though, that to explain how Thor gets his powers, a writer would have to go with the ancient astronaut scenario, meaning that his powers would be derived from unearthly technology. There's no reason this could not be well-written and entertaining AND retain the essential personality and values of the character. The character has potential if well-written, but I have to seriously question the assumption that he must be a literal "god" in order to explore the values and beliefs that Thor writers have typically explored.

A third alternative would be to entertain the notion (as is sometimes seen or hinted at in various fantasy novels since Tolkien's day) of the Creator Himself having gifted certain individuals in ancient times with amazing powers to achieve this or that noble purpose, and subsequently those individuals were misunderstood and misinterpreted by others as "gods." (I'd take this same tack toward Wonder Woman if I wrote her stories.)

Cheers,
Andy
 
I'm not sure what you're after with this thread, but I'm personally not interested in any reinterpretations of Thor. I like the fact that he's a bona fide god. Yes, there are illogical aspects to that, but there are illogical aspects to everything in comics. I'm content with Thor just the way he is. He's already my favorite character, after all.
 
Why do you find pagan gods flying around irrational in a fictional setting, while you endorse the literary value of a Judeo-Christian creator figure basically doing the exact same thing? Why are "ancient deified astronauts" more believable to you than classical deities? You have the exact same amount of evidence in one as you do the other: absofrickin'lutely none.

It's fiction. It's high-fantasy fiction for pete's sakes. Who in his right mind goes around thinking if Thor is more believable than Superman?
 
Absolutely uneccessary. The beauty of Thor is that it keeps the mystery alive, the line between science fiction and mythology a little more blurred.

If you need to rationalize it in your head, just assume that Asgard is simply another dimensional plane of existence and the existence of Asgardian Gods in our universe is a bleed from that dimension.
 
"Gods" in the Marvel universe means something different than gods in the real world.
 
Read the Ultimates 1 and 2. I think that'll have what you're looking for.
 
I was going to say his idea sounded a lot like Ultimate Thor, but every time I bring up how lame it was that Thor was implied to be some crazy Liberal with super-tech in The Ultimates, someone pops out of the woodwork to remind me that Loki and Thor turned out to be... crazy actual gods with super-tech in The Ultimates. :dry:
 
I am not sure what you mean by "bona fide god", since godhood in the MU and the traditional definition of the word are two very different things.

You might as well just sub "alien" for "god", since the MU treats their gods as immensely powerful non-humans, with a tendency towards immortality and inherent magic manipulation. So your analogy actually holds up in the face of the MU, Thor is an alien being of immense power, who has chosen to align himself throughout history with the betterment and protection of mankind.

Creator myths are tougher to handle, and on several occasions Thor makes clear that he does not seek out worship, nor does he place himself, or any of his peers on the level of the traditional Christian God.

However, I agree that "Thor, god of thunder" has a certain ring to it that "Thor, very powerful alien who can control the weather" lacks :yay:

T
 
I was going to say his idea sounded a lot like Ultimate Thor, but every time I bring up how lame it was that Thor was implied to be some crazy Liberal with super-tech in The Ultimates, someone pops out of the woodwork to remind me that Loki and Thor turned out to be... crazy actual gods with super-tech in The Ultimates. :dry:

There was no tech involved.
 
Yeah Loki simply took thors powers and magically bound them to his belt. But yeah God in the marvel universe is fickle. God in the marvel universe is like how their are inhumans,mutants,humans,atlanteans. A rational explanation was given by marvel about the god thor. They are beings who live in another dimension. Whether or not their is a one true god or whatever is not in their relation. I think Thor loses his edge if he isnt a "god". Then its really anybody can be thor if they got the tools.
 
The Marvel interpretation of the word "god" has grown a lot more complex than "super powered sort of alien" over the years. I mean, on one hand, The Asgardians are a race of superhumans. But then again, it has been implied, especially in the JMS relaunch, that gods are personifications of primal cosmic forces, and while they are there own individuals, they also are tied to those forces beyond their own identities.

And about something the thread starter said: The implications of Thor's known existence in the MU have been explored. All sorts of cultists have popped up worshiping him and the other Asgardians, while on the other side of things, there are all sorts of people who write him off as some nutbag mutant or other purely scientific rationalization of his existence. In fact, I do believe Iron Man was convinced that Thor was off his rocker until they shared a mutual vision of Asgard.
 
No THIS is what you asked AD,

I'd suggest the filmmakers borrow a page from Highlander, which is parallel to Thor in that you have a character with a pre-modern origin being transplanted into a modern setting. His look alters so that he can fit in at least to some degree, but he can still have some uniqueness to him.

It's like architecture too: you can tell when a building's design has been inspired by a flavour in the past, yet it's updated. Let Thor's costume fit the times when the film depicts him in the Viking era - but let it be updated for our era too. Come up with something that pays tribute to the Vikings but without literally having him look like some moron from the Society for Creative Anachronism who got lost from his play group.

The Ultimate costume is a step in the right direction, in fact it's nearly there.

Savage was responding to the Highlander suggestion.



In another thread, I had suggested reinterpreting Thor as a man empowered by the advanced technology of what is popularly known as "ancient astronauts." One poster responded as follows:



No, I'm not mad. I just think a character that asks you to temporarily "believe" in literal Nordic gods is simply a stupid character. I reject pagan gods as being utterly irrational, and so for me the character of Thor is an irrational character. If he were a real god, then he wouldn't be a mere superhero - he'd be someone we should bow to and worship. That would be the logical outcome of Thor's being a god.

And what do you mean by "inspire reverence"? People are supposed to "revere" Thor? Why? Think about translating that type of character to film, and not only that but also writing a story with more depth in which Thor's existence has a plausible impact on public thinking. If a character like that stepped into the real world, he would not merely be acknowledged as a superhero; he would drastically overhaul world philosophies and religions. The implications of his existence would be incalculable.

And it's not as if an alternative explanation couldn't have the elements you're after: questioning our worldviews, a sense of mystery, and even a sense of reverence - if, that is, the character prompts us to reconsider the matter of the existence of a Supreme Being, a Creator (which Thor himself obviously is not).

What I'm suggesting is that a writer consider a rational explanation for the ancient "gods" - either deified men (most likely) or extraterrestrials (far less likely, but could be plausibly written for fiction). With either of those scenarios there would actually have been a person called "Thor" who performed amazing feats, and as a result was worshipped by others as a "god," even though they were simply wrong about his having been a god.

I suppose, though, that to explain how Thor gets his powers, a writer would have to go with the ancient astronaut scenario, meaning that his powers would be derived from unearthly technology. There's no reason this could not be well-written and entertaining AND retain the essential personality and values of the character. The character has potential if well-written, but I have to seriously question the assumption that he must be a literal "god" in order to explore the values and beliefs that Thor writers have typically explored.

A third alternative would be to entertain the notion (as is sometimes seen or hinted at in various fantasy novels since Tolkien's day) of the Creator Himself having gifted certain individuals in ancient times with amazing powers to achieve this or that noble purpose, and subsequently those individuals were misunderstood and misinterpreted by others as "gods." (I'd take this same tack toward Wonder Woman if I wrote her stories.)

Cheers,
Andy



And personally the Ultimate Thor's costume looks like X-mens film costumes, this is THOR, the THOR movie takes place in the VIKING era, not today, and the NEW Thor Costume would look WAY better, even over the Classic.
 
Your ideas and viewpoints are completely awful and utterly ******ed. We're all dumber for having read that.

I said it, because others don't have the power to. Please, next time you have a new idea about the complete and total annihilation of a literary figure, keep them to yourself.
 
Your ideas and viewpoints are completely awful and utterly ******ed. We're all dumber for having read that.

I said it, because others don't have the power to. Please, next time you have a new idea about the complete and total annihilation of a literary figure, keep them to yourself.

Look, buddy, it's just a free-for-all discussion of ideas. I really don't care what you think about my ideas or my freedom to express them. I'm not attacking you or anyone else. We're discussing ideas here. That's all. I'm not sure why that would get you so upset.
 
I can see your point of view. In the real world many people don't believe in gods, but do believe in advanced ancient civilisations who may have been reverred as gods. And this is pretty plausible in the real world, but I really don't see the need to extend this thinking into the current 616 MU. In a world of Multiverses, aliens, magic and humans with superpowers it's pretty easy to accept the notion of gods too.

Plus the position of these gods in the overall cosmic standing is pretty well established in the MU, so why try and change this.
 
Look, buddy, it's just a free-for-all discussion of ideas. I really don't care what you think about my ideas or my freedom to express them. I'm not attacking you or anyone else. We're discussing ideas here. That's all. I'm not sure why that would get you so upset.

It's Darth. He's just like that. You get used to it.
 
The Marvel interpretation of the word "god" has grown a lot more complex than "super powered sort of alien" over the years. I mean, on one hand, The Asgardians are a race of superhumans. But then again, it has been implied, especially in the JMS relaunch, that gods are personifications of primal cosmic forces, and while they are there own individuals, they also are tied to those forces beyond their own identities.

And about something the thread starter said: The implications of Thor's known existence in the MU have been explored. All sorts of cultists have popped up worshiping him and the other Asgardians, while on the other side of things, there are all sorts of people who write him off as some nutbag mutant or other purely scientific rationalization of his existence. In fact, I do believe Iron Man was convinced that Thor was off his rocker until they shared a mutual vision of Asgard.
It's been heavily implied that gods are an inherent part of a planet's make-up, too. They come from some kind of energy field that all planets have and are, to some extent, molded by the beliefs of sentient beings if they emerge on the planet. They may end up looking similar to super-powered aliens, but they're pretty unique conceptually because of how their existence ties into belief. There's a difference between divine magic and regular magic, too--that's why Desak could absorb the energy of gods and nothing else.
 
Look, buddy, it's just a free-for-all discussion of ideas. I really don't care what you think about my ideas or my freedom to express them. I'm not attacking you or anyone else. We're discussing ideas here. That's all. I'm not sure why that would get you so upset.

He's not your buddy guy.
 
Some of you guys are quite humorous. But it's an intriguing discussion, so I appreciate the responses. Look, I'm not intending to crap all over someone's enjoyment of comic-books. These thoughts just come into my head when I think of the philosophical implications of some comic-book characters.

Even if the "reinterpretation" I suggested were not applied to Thor, it could produce an interesting character in its own right. Okay, so maybe it just shouldn't be Thor, then. But don't forget, anyone either writing stories or reading them is at least partly controlled by their own belief-system. Obviously a Christian will entertain stories about the supernatural, but won't get off on stories about so-called "gods." But you guys, too, have belief-systems you hold to, and those beliefs determine how much enjoyment you get out of a character like Thor. A character who was more like Jesus Christ you probably wouldn't enjoy so much, right?

To some degree also this discussion hinges on how we define the term "god." Somebody here said:

Why do you find pagan gods flying around irrational in a fictional setting, while you endorse the literary value of a Judeo-Christian creator figure basically doing the exact same thing? Why are "ancient deified astronauts" more believable to you than classical deities? You have the exact same amount of evidence in one as you do the other: absofrickin'lutely none.

It may seem that way on the surface, but are you sure you've thought it through? For starters, the Judeo-Christian God is not the only version of a Creator. Many of the ancients believed in a Creator who is separate from the cosmos. But most of the pagan small-g "gods" are not the same kind of being as the Creator. The small-g "gods" are actually part of the cosmos; they emanate from the substance of the universe or the Earth; they personify various forces of nature (Thor personifies thunder).

That's not the Creator. The Creator is a totally separate being from the universe, and is not contingent on anyone or anything else for His existence. He is self-existent. The pagan "gods," though, are not this kind of being. So, no, the Judeo-Christian God is most definitely not "basically doing the exact same thing" as the pagan "gods." (I dare say, even Thor would admit that!)

Secondly, the world and our lives just make more sense when explained by the existence of the Creator - not so with pagan "gods." Pagan "gods," being part of nature, have to have their own existence explained along with the rest of the universe. You (the poster I quoted) seem to believe that the universe explains itself somehow - but that's just another type of faith, not science. And if there's no Creator, where do we get personality, rationality, and morals from? Life just doesn't make sense without a Creator.

Thirdly, what scientific evidence do you have that the universe either created itself (which is contradictory) or has always existed? Your comment seems to imply that you put your faith in one of the following:
  1. The cosmos appeared on its own, without any cause; or--
  2. The cosmos has always existed.
Are either of these ideas supportable with empirical science? Not at all. All science can do is describe what the universe is right now and how it functions; science can't prove that the cosmos was created by God, OR created by itself, OR always existed. So you've just expressed your own nonscientific faith. "Nonscientific" doesn't mean "bad"; it just means that our most deeply rooted beliefs about the world do not come directly from science but from faith.

By the same token, those deeply rooted beliefs determine the types of stories we write (if we're writers) and the types of stories we enjoy reading or on some level respond to.

Cheers,
Andy
 

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