Tim Burton's Batman Films vs Christopher Nolan's Batman Films

[GothamAlleys]

The Joker always had a crazy motive or reason for killing people on a mass scale. That made him interesting. Nicholson's Joker never specifies why he wants to kill all of Gotham. He just seems to be doing it for amusement. I found that rather one dimensional.

Any villain can kill lots of people for fun. Leave that schtick for wafer thin gimmicky villains like Zsasz. When Joker kills on a mass scale, give him a reason for it.

Same can be said about any villain killing others for a reason, I think one of the most important traces of Joker is that hes so insane that theres no logic or reason at all to his actions and he just does it because and THATS what sets him apart

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

The comic book Joker was driven insane for one reason, Heath Ledger's was driven for another. Are they both ****ing nuts? Yep, so I don't think it really matters if one fell into a vat and one is crazy for unknown or possibly known reasons. When it comes to the typical clown gags, that's more of a personal preference than what the character "truly is." It's like saying, "Bale's Batman doesn't have the Bat-boat or Batwing, so he's not really Batman. He's just a crazy guy with a lot of money."

 

[The Joker]

All of those are the moves of a pansy, real Joker would have just blown up Gotham sky high with a whoopy cusion.

Yeah sure...

Well why does Joker have to wear purple? He can just as easily wear a pink or green suit with polka dots and the character will be the same. In fact, he should wear polka dot makeup too. Then he can look like a sickly murderous clown.

Nobody said he has to wear purple. He obviously chooses to wear purple suit as opposed to the interesting suggestions of polka dots and other suggestions you made, because it looks good, and keeps in tone with looking like a clown.

Maybe purple is his favorite color. Who knows? It's never specified why he chooses to wear only purple. He just does.

Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled. I have heard of many people who have become real crime fighters.

Have you indeed? Were they wearing cape and cowls, and striking terror into the hearts of criminals at night time?

Why not become Hyena man?

The same reason he doesn't become the Mime.

Except Joker isn't Joker unless he has perma-white skin and if you dare say otherwise I will rip your lungs out after showing you a magic trick:

In all seriousness Joker, you have presented very good points that I will not refute. I will have to wave my white flag but I'm french so I can. Just know that next time you may not be so lucky, always nice to have a convo with you old friend. Great post.

LOL, fair enough. But next time, tone the dramatics a bit, please. I thought you'd lost your marbles a bit in that first post

 

[GothamAlleys]

The comic book Joker was driven insane for one reason, Heath Ledger's was driven for another. Are they both ****ing nuts? Yep, so I don't think it really matters if one fell into a vat and one is crazy for unknown or possibly known reasons. When it comes to the typical clown gags, that's more of a personal preference than what the character "truly is." It's like saying, "Bale's Batman doesn't have the Bat-boat or Batwing, so he's not really Batman. He's just a crazy guy with a lot of money."

I think its more akin to Batman not having any gadgets or personilized things at all

 

[Travesty]

The comic book Joker was driven insane for one reason, Heath Ledger's was driven for another. Are they both ****ing nuts? Yep, so I don't think it really matters if one fell into a vat and one is crazy for unknown or possibly known reasons. When it comes to the typical clown gags, that's more of a personal preference than what the character "truly is." It's like saying, "Bale's Batman doesn't have the Bat-boat or Batwing, so he's not really Batman. He's just a crazy guy with a lot of money."

No, it would be more like having a Batman that doesn't use any kind of iconic gadgets - ie. The batmobile, batarangs, cape-glider, grapple-gun, etc.

Both Batman and Joker aren't supernatural entities, so they have to use their iconic gadgets to get them where they need to go. Joker has comedic gadgets that set him apart from other villains: Joker venom, razor playing cards, acid flower, joy buzzers, etc. Sure, he has used guns and knives before, but it's not iconic to the character, just as the batmobile and batarangs set Batman apart from any superhero.

 

[Travesty]

I think its more akin to Batman not having any gadgets or personilized things at all

Ha, I didn't see this before I posted, but yeah, I agree.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Well, what tools of the trade did Bale have that were bat themed? The suit and the batarangs, that's it, and those little things aren't even in The Dark Knight. Instead of a stylish Batmobile, he had a tank. Instead of a gun with his face on the barrel, the Joker just had a machine gun. It works. So it's not exactly the same thing, but you'll have to cut them some slack. They wanted to do their own versions, to add, rather than copy.

 

[The Joker]

Same can be said about any villain killing others for a reason

Yes, but when the likes of Penguin, Riddler, Two Face, Poison Ivy etc kill people, it's a means to an end to some plan they have which is unique to their own brand of psychosis.

Joker in B'89 wasn't killing Gotham for any specific purpose.

I think one of the most important traces of Joker is that hes so insane that theres no logic or reason at all to his actions and he just does it because and THATS what sets him apart

There's always some logic behind his motives, it's just usually a crazy one. But he does have a reason. It's like Batman said in The Laughing Fish; "Normal criminals usually have logical motives. But the Joker's insane schemes make sense to him alone". In that particular case, he was trying to patent a natural resource like fish.

 

[ALP]

Same can be said about any villain killing others for a reason, I think one of the most important traces of Joker is that hes so insane that theres no logic or reason at all to his actions and he just does it because and THATS what sets him apart

Agreed. To get back to a serious post, I like the idea that Joker is such a maniac that he murders just for the pure thrill. In reality people always want to ration why a crime was done. If a college kid goes columbine and murders 10 people at his school, do you know what the first thing everyone wants to know... why did he do it? I'm talking in terms of real life... it's always more sadistic when there is no real reason or rationality for what is done. The idea that there is no reason for someone's lunacy strikes a cord I think.

Anyway I think Joker does have a good point when he says there wasn't a lot more to Joker/Batman other than wanting to kill one another. Joker saw Batman as a nuance and I don't mind Joker wanting to put an end to Batman(considering it will never happen). However I find more fault in Batman wanting to kill Joker. For this reason, I'd say the cardinal sin of B'89 was not making Joker the killer of the Waynes...but Joker dying and Batman being the cause of it. In the bigger scheme of things, it took away potential they could have had in future films. But I do think Jack's Joker was having a pretty fun time with Keaton's Batman. Sure he didn't out and out say "I need you as the ying to my yang so we can play everyday" but I got the feeling Joker was having his fun with Batman. "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" "You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses." He was yanking Batman around and if his main goal was to kill him then he certainly wanted to do it while having a little fun at his expense as well.

 

[Travesty]

Well, what tools of the trade did Bale have that were bat themed? The suit and the batarangs, that's it, and those little things aren't even in The Dark Knight. Instead of a stylish Batmobile, he had a tank. Instead of a gun with his face on the barrel, the Joker just had a machine gun. It works. So it's not exactly the same thing, but you'll have to cut them some slack. They wanted to do their own versions, to add, rather than copy.

But Batman did have plenty of iconic gadgets. Yes, The Tumbler doesn't have a bat-symbol on it, but it's clearly the Batmobile. He also had batarangs, the grapple-gun, and he uses his cape-glider. Those are pretty much iconic, and inline with the character.

 

[ALP]

Have you indeed? Were they wearing cape and cowls, and striking terror into the hearts of criminals at night time?

Haha, there's a group that's actually been making the rounds quite a bit in the news lately. You've got to see this if you haven't:

[YT]Q_uJ0Hih7QU[/YT]

 

[GothamAlleys]

Yes, but when the likes of Penguin, Riddler, Two Face, Poison Ivy etc kill people, it's a means to an end to some plan they have which is unique to their own brand of psychosis.

Joker in B'89 wasn't killing Gotham for any specific purpose.

And thats what makes Joker Joker. He just gets up one day and thinks of something. Hes memory isnt even working properly since his actions are inconsistent. Even with the example of Laughing Fish, why did he want to patent the fish? Theres no reason behind it, its crazy, he just does it because. And then after that he never tried to patent a fish again. and was on to something else, never even referencing it again. he just gets up one day and does stuff for fun with no logic or reason behind it "Lets have a big parade and kill an entire city", and the guy even kills his own henchemen just like that. Guy like this is truly nuts and that unpredictability and lack of logic makes him that much more dangerous

 

[The Joker]

Haha, there's a group that's actually been making the rounds quite a bit in the news lately. You've got to see this if you haven't:

[YT]Q_uJ0Hih7QU[/YT]

LMAO!!! This is brilliant.

Did anyone else get a Kick-Ass vibe off these guys? I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face at the one in the middle if he approached me. He looks like a WWF reject lol.

And thats what makes Joker Joker. He just gets up one day and thinks of something. Hes memory isnt even working properly since his actions are inconsistent. Even with the example of Laughing Fish, why did he want to patent the fish? Theres no reason behind it, its crazy, he just does it because. And then after that he never tried to patent a fish again. and was on to something else, never even referencing it again. he just gets up one day and does stuff for fun with no logic or reason behind it "Lets have a big parade and kill an entire city", and the guy even kills his own henchemen just like that. Guy like this is truly nuts and that unpredictability and lack of logic makes him that much more dangerous

The Joker doesn't do any major scheme without a reason. Inconsistent actions or not, he has reasons. You mentioned inconsistency, he initially wanted to kill Batman in TDK, and then by the time the interrogation room scene comes along, he laughs at the mere idea of killing Batman because he's just too entertaining and fun to him now.

Joker repeating the same schemes, we know why he doesn't do that, it's because it's repetitive, and the writers want to keep him fresh. He's not like say Ra's Al Ghul, a character who only has one goal, but goes about trying it in different ways.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the smilex plot, it was fun, but I believe it would have come off much better if he had some crazy motive for doing it. Like in The Man Who Laughs, when he wants to poison all of Gotham for revenge because he blames them all for his fall into the chemicals.

 

[ALP]

"And now is when I relieve you, the little people, of the burden of your failed and useless lives..."

Maybe that was his only motive... To purge people of their pathetic lives? lol

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I always figured the Joker said he'd kill Batman just so the gangsters would give him half of their money. It makes the Joker just like Batman, Harvey, and Jim trying to take down the mob.

 

[Travesty]

I always figured the Joker said he'd kill Batman just so the gangsters would give him half of their money. It makes the Joker just like Batman, Harvey, and Jim trying to take down the mob.

No, he thought Harvey was Batman, and he tried to kill him in the SWAT vehicle, so he really did want to kill him, but for some reason, changed his mind once he figured out Harvey wasn't Batman once The Tumbler came roaring down the road.

by the way, I like your Avy. I love 'ol Bugs.

 

[mothy]

The Joker doesn't do any major scheme without a reason. Inconsistent actions or not, he has reasons. You mentioned inconsistency, he initially wanted to kill Batman in TDK, and then by the time the interrogation room scene comes along, he laughs at the mere idea of killing Batman because he's just too entertaining and fun to him now.

Joker repeating the same schemes, we know why he doesn't do that, it's because it's repetitive, and the writers want to keep him fresh. He's not like say Ra's Al Ghul, a character who only has one goal, but goes about trying it in different ways.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the smilex plot, it was fun, but I believe it would have come off much better if he had some crazy motive for doing it. Like in The Man Who Laughs, when he wants to poison all of Gotham for revenge because he blames them all for his fall into the chemicals.

absolutely agree on every point you raise.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I liked Heath Ledger's Joker better than Jack Nicholson. In THE DARK KNIGHT, his battles with Batman have a more philosophically-based context than the more emotional one of BATMAN. For me, Ledger's Joker is a terrifying because he is an anarchist to whom things we consider elemental such as morality, principles, law, order, and even sanity are meaningless things to be subverted and destroyed and nothing is sacred. He is even willing to give his life to prove his point. He sees himself as "in on the joke", and wants everyone else to see things as he does. This is why he makes an interesting archenemy for Batman, who acts to protect law and order and serve justice. Thus they are inevitably philosophically locked in a battle for the soul of Gotham, similar to that of God and Satan in Christianity.
Jack Nicholson's Joker, on the other hand, inadvertently created Batman by murdering his parents. Batman wants to kill the Joker to avenge the death of his parents, and Joker wants to kill Batman because he takes attention away from him.

 

[Ponyboy]

"And now is when I relieve you, the little people, of the burden of your failed and useless lives..."

Maybe that was his only motive... To purge people of their pathetic lives? lol

 

[El Payaso]

What I find ridiculous is that Nicholson's and Ledger's Joker have an awful lot of similitudes.

Both do things just because they want to watch the world burn.

Both use the money to attract the average men to his own death. They kill people for the sake of it, and please, that can't be any more Joker than it sounds. Now of course, we can put those "reasons" in either philosophical or emotional terms but in the end both Jokers just feel pleased of having human lives at their disposal.

I think ALP is very right. What he says can be a great reason for Joker to kill people, even when in the context of the movie he was gassing people to death to attract Batman, but also to prove that with a few bucks any Gothamite could be bought. Everyone in Gotham knew that Joker was a killer, but when he offered money they went there anyways. And, most important, just like Ledger's Joker or any Joker out there, he wants to be the center of attention.

Nicholson's Joker started killing models for a reason also: he was against people who lived and worked around external beauty ("You know how concerned people are about appearances. This is attractive, that is not.") So the more concerned you are about appaerances the more beauty product you'll use and therefore the more chances you have to get killed. He wants a new face to the world which is his own face, a new point of view for the world to be understood. That's why he turns Alicia's face into a Joker-esque one, which he tries to do to Vicky too. That's why he wants his face in the one dollar bills. That way his "deformity" stops being that and starts being the standard. The Sam Hamm script is much more explanatory about this but it is there in the movie anyways.

Nicholson's Joker has an artist inside but both him and Ledger are anachists that want to be the center of everything.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Nice post

 

[returntovoid]

What I find ridiculous is that Nicholson's and Ledger's Joker have an awful lot of similitudes.

Both do things just because they want to watch the world burn.

Both use the money to attract the average men to his own death. They kill people for the sake of it, and please, that can't be any more Joker than it sounds. Now of course, we can put those "reasons" in either philosophical or emotional terms but in the end both Jokers just feel pleased of having human lives at their disposal.

I think ALP is very right. What he says can be a great reason for Joker to kill people, even when in the context of the movie he was gassing people to death to attract Batman, but also to prove that with a few bucks any Gothamite could be bought. Everyone in Gotham knew that Joker was a killer, but when he offered money they went there anyways. And, most important, just like Ledger's Joker or any Joker out there, he wants to be the center of attention.

Nicholson's Joker started killing models for a reason also: he was against people who lived and worked around external beauty ("You know how concerned people are about appearances. This is attractive, that is not.") So the more concerned you are about appaerances the more beauty product you'll use and therefore the more chances you have to get killed. He wants a new face to the world which is his own face, a new point of view for the world to be understood. That's why he turns Alicia's face into a Joker-esque one, which he tries to do to Vicky too. That's why he wants his face in the one dollar bills. That way his "deformity" stops being that and starts being the standard. The Sam Hamm script is much more explanatory about this but it is there in the movie anyways.

Nicholson's Joker has an artist inside but both him and Ledger are anachists that want to be the center of everything.

Exactly, well put.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

by the way, I like your Avy. I love 'ol Bugs.

He's my idol.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Something that really annoyed me about Burton and Schumacher's Batman movies that Nolan has avoided are the gadget inconsistency. By this, I mean a gadget that has no introduction, only is useful in only one (or very few) situation which our hero just happens to find himself in that would would be unlikely for Batman to anticipate the need for. Examples include:

• The extending plate in Batman's gauntlet he used to defeat the Asian Joker Goon with leg knives in the cathedral scene of BATMAN.
• Batman's Batarang launcher, rocket boots, and others in BATMAN FOREVER.
• Batman & Robin's ice skates in the opening of the BATMAN & ROBIN.

There are probably many others, but I think you get my drift.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

If Burton didn't want to explain Bruce Wayne's back story, I really doubt he'd want to explain where that ugly looking hang glider in Batman Returns came from.