The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[nickyg641]

Yeah,while i still want to see a completely comic accurate joker on film one day. Something new didnt hurt,and was really enjoyable

Agreed.

Altough I still wonder what it would have been like of he were permawhite.

 

[Rasputin911]

someone who puts on makeup and slices a smile onto his face is much scarier, IMO, than someone who was a "normal joe" until he fell into a chemical pool.

Also much closer to real-life psychopaths. The smile actually reminded me of how Charles Manson carved the X (and later swastika) into his forehead

 

[regwec]

The first half of your post could have been composed by the Superherohype Robot.

 

[nickyg641]

The first half of your post could have been composed by the Superherohype Robot.

I've seen that sentence more times in this thread than it's possible to imagine.

The second part is actually a somewhat intelligent comparison, if you ignore the fact that may may not have actually done it to himself.

 

[Bathead]

There's nothing to suggest, either that Joker used to be just a "normal joe", before the accident.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

someone who puts on makeup and slices a smile onto his face is much scarier, IMO, than someone who was a "normal joe" until he fell into a chemical pool.

Also much closer to real-life psychopaths. The smile actually reminded me of how Charles Manson carved the X (and later swastika) into his forehead

That;s the problem though, by just being like a real life psychopath you destroy 99% of Joker's awesomeness.

BECAUSE HE IS NOT A NORMAL PSYCHOPATH!!!

Er, sorry about that, but I tire of that kind of argument that demands such a unique villain to be rendered your common killer, when he could be far, far above that. He is the Clown Prince of Crime after all.

 

[gwynplaine]

To me he felt more like a real life psychopath but also more like the Clown Prince of Crime than ever.
And unlike Manson we don't know that his scars are self-inflicted, just like we don't know who comic book Joker was before the chem bath we don't know who TDK Joker was pre-scarring. And it's great.

 

[Darkness Falls]

agreed

 

[Doc Samson]

This just won't die will it? I confess, I was one of those people spouting off about the cut smile making the Joker more psychotic than the permawhite Joker, and I still feel that way. In almost every variation of the Red Hood origin, Batman was there and indirectly responsible for the Joker falling into the chemicals, at least that much we know. TDK Joker, no matter who he was before in life, is choosing to be the Joker. People have scars all over the world and lead a regular life. If someone actually looked like the comic Joker, would they not have a pretty good reason to become a tad bit unhinged?

TDK has no excuse for his behavior, and no reason to be running around with makeup on his face. To me, you have to be a pretty screwed up individual to live that way, especially when your normal, for all intents and purposes. How is that destroying "99% of his awesomeness." The mentality is the same, but the sympathy is lessened

 

[Bathead]

Destroying "99% of his awesomeness"? Probably not. Look at it this way - It's just a different kind of awesomeness.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well this Joker is just a sick, twisted puppy. "I like that!"

 

[Beanjuice]

This just won't die will it? I confess, I was one of those people spouting off about the cut smile making the Joker more psychotic than the permawhite Joker, and I still feel that way. In almost every variation of the Red Hood origin, Batman was there and indirectly responsible for the Joker falling into the chemicals, at least that much we know. TDK Joker, no matter who he was before in life, is choosing to be the Joker. People have scars all over the world and lead a regular life. If someone actually looked like the comic Joker, would they not have a pretty good reason to become a tad bit unhinged?

TDK has no excuse for his behavior, and no reason to be running around with makeup on his face. To me, you have to be a pretty screwed up individual to live that way, especially when your normal, for all intents and purposes. How is that destroying "99% of his awesomeness." The mentality is the same, but the sympathy is lessened

Ok,valid points except your forgetting one big thing......WE NEVER SEE OR HEAR ABOUT HIS TRUE ORIGIN. We dont know what made him the way he was. Certainly the scarring wasnt what set him off. But we dont know for sure

 

[Beanjuice]

That;s the problem though, by just being like a real life psychopath you destroy 99% of Joker's awesomeness.

So according to this, the joker in the comics is just a figment of batman's imagination? Because if he was a real psychopath it just wouldnt work at all

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

So according to this, the joker in the comics is just a figment of batman's imagination? Because if he was a real psychopath it just wouldnt work at all

No, this is why I don't visit this part of the board often, every Nolan fan and his mother exaggerates your post to the point of ridiculousness. All I'm saying is that Joker is a totally unique individual, beyond the realms of your average killer. Should he be made more like one would he be more scary? Maybe, but he sure as hell wouldn't be as mysterious, cool and enjoyable to watch. Nolan understood this to a point, TDK's Joker walked the edge and made a brilliant interpretation, but I still be believe that a less realistic, bleached and acid squirting flower Joker that still held the darkness and insanity of Ledger's Joker would be the ultimate interpretation.

EDIT: And I did go totally overboard on the 99% issue. But please know that wasn't to do with makeup so much, but more the "gun are too quick, knives are nice and sloooow" standard serial killer stuff.

 

[Rasputin911]

No, this is why I don't visit this part of the board often, every Nolan fan and his mother exaggerates your post to the point of ridiculousness. All I'm saying is that Joker is a totally unique individual, beyond the realms of your average killer. Should he be made more like one would he be more scary? Maybe, but he sure as hell wouldn't be as mysterious, cool and enjoyable to watch. Nolan understood this to a point, TDK's Joker walked the edge and made a brilliant interpretation, but I still be believe that a less realistic, bleached and acid squirting flower Joker that still held the darkness and insanity of Ledger's Joker would be the ultimate interpretation.

EDIT: And I did go totally overboard on the 99% issue. But please know that wasn't to do with makeup so much, but more the "gun are too quick, knives are nice and sloooow" standard serial killer stuff.

If gag-weapons are what define the Joker for you, you should enjoy Nicholson's/Burton's interpretation. He gave pretty much everything you're asking for.

But i don't think that's what the Joker's defining feature should be. It should be chaos highlighted by psychopathy, which is why i like Ledger/Nolan's version.

 

[Rasputin911]

I've seen that sentence more times in this thread than it's possible to imagine.

The second part is actually a somewhat intelligent comparison, if you ignore the fact that may may not have actually done it to himself.

well sorry i didn't read all the billion posts on here. But maybe it keeps coming up because it's true.

And yeah, i just always assumed they were self-inflicted. It seemed obvious to me, but i'm sure lots of people see it differently

 

[gwynplaine]

If gag-weapons are what define the Joker for you, you should enjoy Nicholson's/Burton's interpretation. He gave pretty much everything you're asking for.

But i don't think that's what the Joker's defining feature should be. It should be chaos highlighted by psychopathy, which is why i like Ledger/Nolan's version.

Well said.

Question : Wasn't Kane, Robinson and Finger's original creation a thief who was interested in diamonds and robbing the rich people of Gotham (announcing their death beforehand like in TDK)?
That's how I remember it. If so I think that whole "agent of chaos" persona engineered by the Nolans is one of the most brilliant reinvention of a character in the history of cinema imo.

 

[Rasputin911]

Well said.

Question : Wasn't Kane, Robinson and Finger's original creation a thief who was interested in diamonds and robbing the rich people of Gotham (announcing their death beforehand like in TDK)?
That's how I remember it. If so I think that whole "agent of chaos" persona engineered by the Nolans is one of the most brilliant reinvention of a character in the history of cinema imo.

yeah, i dunnow about the jewel thief part but i do know he liked to announce that he "would murder someone before midnight," and of course it fell to Batman/Robin to save whoever it might be

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea Joker started off as a murderous thief if I remember rightly.

 

[Bathead]

Yes, that's exactly how he started and how he was for a good part of his comic book "life" - a clever and murderous thief.

 

[ronny]

But in The Joker's origin, was Batman even the one who threw him into the chemicals? I mean, is Batman always responsible for creating this guy? Or is The Red Hood story something that The Joker just cooked up to explain himself?

 

[CaptainClown]

Depends on which origin story you want, there is no definitive one. Sometimes he jumps in, sometimes batman "nudges" him in.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I prefer Batman kind of having a hand in his creation. Indirectly, of course.

 

[ronny]

I prefer Batman kind of having a hand in his creation. Indirectly, of course.

It's an interesting dynamic for sure but I don't care for it. The way I see it, The Joker was always The Joker. A sick, demented **** with a bizzare sense of humour that nobody gets.
Chemical bath or not he would have turned out the same way.

 

[CaptainClown]

then you would like Lovers & Madmen where that is basically what Joker is. The chem bath just gives him a theme.