The Flash Tom Cavanaugh IS Harrison Wells/Eobard Thawne/Reverse-Flash - Part 1

[The Infernal]

Lol. I've just been using the thread title all this time as a guide for spelling his name.

But everytime we saw Wells act with warmth, compassion and seeming sincerity, that could've been aspects of the real Wells's personality coming through. I'd like to believe that Thawne has inherited parts of that, so that Wells has in fact been a stabilising influence on someone who would otherwise have been a completely callous human being.

I said in another thread that Harrison Wells kind of reminds me of Adam Kane from Mutant X - the Professor X-like strategic scientist figure behind all of the heroes. He even looks a bit similar to John Shea, and he has a wheelchair like Charles Xaiver. With a good Wells helping the heroes, he could be a very valuable ally. And maybe he might even somehow have knowledge of how Thawne might operate.

Without Wells, how are Barry and his friends going to have the necessary scientific knowledge or experience to be fully effective as a team?

I'm not saying Wells has a different personality. What I'm saying what may have worked so well for Tom is his performance as Reverse Flash impersonating Dr. Wells. What I don't want to see is for Tom to come back as Dr. Wells resurrected only to ape the father figure/mentor role minus the undercurrent of manipulation. What I'm saying is, if he were to come back, then I would like to see a different arc to his character and not simply jump into the same role he occupied as RF as Dr. Wells.

As for having knowledge of Thawne. I don't see how unless the timeline was changed quite a deal. Thawne killed them when they first met.

Plus I don't really see the point of maintaining the status quo of the first season when the Dr. Wells unmasking and defeat should ideally irrevocably shatter that. Personally I think that a drastic shift in team dynamic for the Flash's allies is exciting and akin to SHIELD post Winter Soldier (in potential).

As for where Barry can get his scientific knowledge. I think it's selling Barry, Caitlin and Cisco short to say they'd be lost without Dr. Wells.

 

[<(o_o)>]

Lol. I've just been using the thread title all this time as a guide for spelling his name.



I'm not saying Wells has a different personality. What I'm saying what may have worked so well for Tom is his performance as Reverse Flash impersonating Dr. Wells. What I don't want to see is for Tom to come back as Dr. Wells resurrected only to ape the father figure/mentor role minus the undercurrent of manipulation. What I'm saying is, if he were to come back, then I would like to see a different arc to his character and not simply jump into the same role he occupied as RF as Dr. Wells.

As for having knowledge of Thawne. I don't see how unless the timeline was changed quite a deal. Thawne killed them when they first met.

Plus I don't really see the point of maintaining the status quo of the first season when the Dr. Wells unmasking and defeat should ideally irrevocably shatter that. Personally I think that a drastic shift in team dynamic for the Flash's allies is exciting and akin to SHIELD post Winter Soldier (in potential).

As for where Barry can get his scientific knowledge. I think it's selling Barry, Caitlin and Cisco short to say they'd be lost without Dr. Wells.

Maybe they could start seeking that knowledge from Dr. Tina McGee, or what kind of Dr. is Barry's dad supposed to be, they can't keep him in prison forever so they could add him to team Flash.

 

[Dark Raven]

Lol. I've just been using the thread title all this time as a guide for spelling his name.



I'm not saying Wells has a different personality. What I'm saying what may have worked so well for Tom is his performance as Reverse Flash impersonating Dr. Wells. What I don't want to see is for Tom to come back as Dr. Wells resurrected only to ape the father figure/mentor role minus the undercurrent of manipulation. What I'm saying is, if he were to come back, then I would like to see a different arc to his character and not simply jump into the same role he occupied as RF as Dr. Wells.

As for having knowledge of Thawne. I don't see how unless the timeline was changed quite a deal. Thawne killed them when they first met.

Plus I don't really see the point of maintaining the status quo of the first season when the Dr. Wells unmasking and defeat should ideally irrevocably shatter that. Personally I think that a drastic shift in team dynamic for the Flash's allies is exciting and akin to SHIELD post Winter Soldier (in potential).

As for where Barry can get his scientific knowledge. I think it's selling Barry, Caitlin and Cisco short to say they'd be lost without Dr. Wells.

I guess it depends on how they bring Wells back. Although he died, if there were some way of separating whatever essence there is of him from Thawne, then because he's shared an existence with Thawne all these years, he would have intimate knowledge of him and also of the speed force and all the other developments Thawne made as Wells. It would have to be some future technology to distil out Wells from Thawne.

And there could be a different arc for Wells, even as the benevolent father figure. He could also have an almost Moby Dick-like arc where he is obsessed with destroying Thawne because of what he did to his life and how he robbed him of happiness and of his wife.

 

[Reversezoom]

Harrison Wells is destined to become the Reverse Flash. However in the other timeline he gains his powers through his particle accelerator. Remember you heard it here first

 

[dude stannis]

If there's some way to keep Cavanagh as Thawne as Wells, that's the best option. I'd definitely love to see his future at some point.

 

[Spidey220987]

I just went and had another quick skim at episode 9.
After The Reverse Flash gets out the "chamber" if you look carefully at Wells behind Joe and Eddie, he's lying there frozen with his hand on his waist. That's where he did the speed mirage.
The things you don't notice on first viewing lol, pretty sneaky Wells

EDIT: Hmmm, then after he has his hand on the floor. Continuity error? lol

 

[Khonshu]

Much is dependent upon whether the writers and producers are going with a single time-line or multiple, branching timelines. If Wells is really Thawne, then in order for Thawne to guarantee that he will even exist is to ensure that he replicates the work of Wells from his original timeline. This is a circular timeline - Thawne is eternally responsible for being his own creator. (The Terminator model)

If they go with Divergent timelines, then in one timeline, Wells is really Wells, who then goes on to contribute to the history that will one day create Thawne. Thawne goes back and kills/absorbs Wells, and at that moment a fracture is created and we're now headed down an alternate timeline. In this instance, we could have a Barry from Timeline A go back to a point where Timeline B and A were still connected. If he affects anything, then we're on to a THIRD timeline (C).

 

[Arach Knight]

Honestly, they have developed wells into a likable evil. We still don't know Thawne's full end-game as far as protecting Barry (perhaps the Thawne/Allen lines are related in the future as they are in the comics), so that makes Thawne a fun puzzle to solve. But Wells' fondness and nurturing of metahumans and his friends also makes him likable. He is the Michael Ronsenbaum of this series, and much like how Smallville took a noticeable dip in consistency once Lex Luthor parted with the series, so too will this show without Thawne. Marvel may have figured out how to create likable heroes, but DC have become masters at getting fans to root for the villains.

 

[BestGirl]

The best of both worlds would be for there to be two Harrison Wellses: one free of Thawne's influence, kindly guiding the STAR Labs team; the other still being Reverse Flash, seeking to thwart Barry or whatever his mission is. I have no clue how this could be made to happen, though.

 

[Dark Raven]

The best of both worlds would be for there to be two Harrison Wellses: one free of Thawne's influence, kindly guiding the STAR Labs team; the other still being Reverse Flash, seeking to thwart Barry or whatever his mission is. I have no clue how this could be made to happen, though.

But if Letscher's RF is developed into a truly evil and complex villain, then he might be enough for the show, while having Wells as the benevolent mentor to Barry.

It's not like Cavanagh can continue to play this seemingly benevolent character indefinitely, especially once Barry and the team are onto him. And if Letscher's Thawne surfaces, then that would mean that Cavanagh's role in the show could get cut. I'd rather have him continue as good Wells than lose him entirely.

 

[Batmannerism]

Much is dependent upon whether the writers and producers are going with a single time-line or multiple, branching timelines. If Wells is really Thawne, then in order for Thawne to guarantee that he will even exist is to ensure that he replicates the work of Wells from his original timeline. This is a circular timeline - Thawne is eternally responsible for being his own creator. (The Terminator model)

If they go with Divergent timelines, then in one timeline, Wells is really Wells, who then goes on to contribute to the history that will one day create Thawne. Thawne goes back and kills/absorbs Wells, and at that moment a fracture is created and we're now headed down an alternate timeline. In this instance, we could have a Barry from Timeline A go back to a point where Timeline B and A were still connected. If he affects anything, then we're on to a THIRD timeline (C).

Very true, it does greatly depend on which version of time-travel theory the writers adhere to, although we can surmise that within the continuity of the show it is possible to alter future events by travelling back to an earlier point in time (in the Terminator series it is possible to make minor changes but the big events, i.e. Judgment Day, still occur but play out slightly differently) e.g. Thawne has changed history by bringing forward the accelerator's explosion, which I suppose also means that Barry has become the Flash 5 years earlier than he was meant to.

Of course there's still the issue of Barry travelling back in time and not meeting his past self - lots of theories on that have been discussed elsewhere- when he clearly does so....or will do so when he travels back in time to save himself from Thawne's attempt on his life.

Really, I think the writers will try and keep it relatively simple for fans to follow - even at the cost of all of it making complete sense or being completely internally consistent- as long as it's entertaining and fun to watch I really don't care too much.

Still, due to the time travel angle you could have a Tom Cavanagh RF and a Matt Letscher RF, hell, they could even team up - which would be awesome !

 

[Brian Braddock]

But if Letscher's RF is developed into a truly evil and complex villain, then he might be enough for the show, while having Wells as the benevolent mentor to Barry.

It's not like Cavanagh can continue to play this seemingly benevolent character indefinitely, especially once Barry and the team are onto him. And if Letscher's Thawne surfaces, then that would mean that Cavanagh's role in the show could get cut. I'd rather have him continue as good Wells than lose him entirely.

Wholeheardly agree; I'm hoping that's how it eventually plays out, to be honest.

 

[Delwin]

I see a single problem - Barry knows that Wells is "fishy": I can hardly imagine dragging this plot without some kind of the solution into second season. Judging from "Arrow" I would expects that the show will have single "big baddie" every season... Thus - "good" Wells seems to be a plausible option. Maybe the finale will be about "getting back" old Wells? Next season might be about the revenge or sth...

 

[The_Manhunter]

Honestly, they have developed wells into a likable evil. We still don't know Thawne's full end-game as far as protecting Barry (perhaps the Thawne/Allen lines are related in the future as they are in the comics), so that makes Thawne a fun puzzle to solve. But Wells' fondness and nurturing of metahumans and his friends also makes him likable. He is the Michael Ronsenbaum of this series, and much like how Smallville took a noticeable dip in consistency once Lex Luthor parted with the series, so too will this show without Thawne. Marvel may have figured out how to create likable heroes, but DC have become masters at getting fans to root for the villains.

I think saying this show will sink without Thawne is being harsh on the rest of the cast, particularly Grant Gustin and Jesse L. Martin.

 

[Arach Knight]

double post

 

[Arach Knight]

I think saying this show will sink without Thawne is being harsh on the rest of the cast, particularly Grant Gustin and Jesse L. Martin.

It isn't that the rest of the cast is not stellar, so much as it is the fact that Thawne really provides the thrust. I felt that Tom Welling, Erica Durance and Allison Mack were exceptional in their respective roles, but the show lost direction in the absence of Michael Rosenbaum. Part of the problem with The Flash is the same problem with Smallville by the time that Rosenbaum departed: too much front loading. The first season isn't even over and we already have Thawne as well as half of "The Rogues." The current season arch regarding the murder of Barry's mother is nearly resolved and Thawne's dual identity is about to be revealed. The series already rides heavily on the "monster of the week" formula.

I could always be wrong, but this series seems to be rapidly heading the same direction as Smallville, in terms of using too many good ideas too soon. Arrow also has this problem, which is why the introduction now says "five years in hell" instead of "five years on the island." The writers just blew it too soon and put too much into the first two seasons to continue on with what was at that point an excellent plot. Also, I did not say that the show will sink without the Thawne character: I said that the consitency of the quality will take a dip. Rosenbaum left Smallville after what, five seasons? The show stayed on the air for another five. So it is not as if The Flash would suddenly get cancelled if Thawne is removed from the equation. I just feel that the show will lose some of its appeal.

 

[Batmannerism]

It isn't that the rest of the cast is not stellar, so much as it is the fact that Thawne really provides the thrust. I felt that Tom Welling, Erica Durance and Allison Mack were exceptional in their respective roles, but the show lost direction in the absence of Michael Rosenbaum. Part of the problem with The Flash is the same problem with Smallville by the time that Rosenbaum departed: too much front loading. The first season isn't even over and we already have Thawne as well as half of "The Rogues." The current season arch regarding the murder of Barry's mother is nearly resolved and Thawne's dual identity is about to be revealed. The series already rides heavily on the "monster of the week" formula.

I could always be wrong, but this series seems to be rapidly heading the same direction as Smallville, in terms of using too many good ideas too soon. Arrow also has this problem, which is why the introduction now says "five years in hell" instead of "five years on the island." The writers just blew it too soon and put too much into the first two seasons to continue on with what was at that point an excellent plot. Also, I did not say that the show will sink without the Thawne character: I said that the consitency of the quality will take a dip. Rosenbaum left Smallville after what, five seasons? The show stayed on the air for another five. So it is not as if The Flash would suddenly get cancelled if Thawne is removed from the equation. I just feel that the show will lose some of its appeal.

Fair comment,

Personally, I see things differently - doesn't mean one of us is wrong, just that our preferences are different.

First, I agree that the show has been a bit "monster of the week" but then that's what most mainstream comic books are like, so really you can't fault the writers too much for that. Also, tv shows can be very "monster of the week" and still be very entertaining.

Back before the old X-files tv show turned into unwatchable boredom, some of the best episodes were "monster of the week" episodes. Fringe, which was a far superior version of the X-files, was similar in that probably the best episodes were "monster of the week."
Yeah, relying on this kind of episode too much does get a little repetitive, but the writers have kept it from getting too out of control with the background Wells/Thawne/murder of Nora plot.

Second, I tried to watch Smallville but found it quite painful - I think the Flash cast have waaayyyy more chemistry than even the Smallville leads. I'm a huge Superman fan, but I find Grant Gustin's Barry a much more compelling lead than Tom Welling as you-know-who. I'll give a slight edge to Erica Durance on Candice Patton, but otherwise I vastly prefer the Flash cast as a whole (definitely give the edge to Cavanagh over Michael Rosenbaum). Just IMO, different strokes.

Third, the reveal of Thawne and the RF has been gradual, the final reveal (to Barry ) has taken nearly the whole season. Sure, we found out for sure in episode 9, but I have really enjoyed the little by little reveal of who Wells really is. For me, this pacing has been spot on - and that includes the arrival of the Rogues and the other antagonists - looking forward to seeing Grodd again soon.

Finally, and this is really a corollary to what I said earliler, I disagree with you on the front-loading point, if by that you mean too much good stuff too soon - if I've misunderstood you I apologize.
To be honest, I'd rather the writers pulled out the stops and gave us entertaining episodes rather than held back. Why give us filler episodes or draw things out longer than they need to be ?
Kind of seems in keeping with a show about the fastest man alive, that it gets to the point, well for me anyway.

While the show has been confirmed for another season, who knows how long it will run for - no pun intended. I kind of wish that TV shows would end sooner, but on a higher note - rather than drag on after they've become stale and repetitive. I would rather the Flash's writers gave it a good go, told some great stories and entertained us for 3-4 seasons, rather than dragged it out for 7 or 8.

Again, different strokes for different folks.

 

[coluanprime]

Arrow also has this problem, which is why the introduction now says "five years in hell" instead of "five years on the island." The writers just blew it too soon and put too much into the first two seasons to continue on with what was at that point an excellent plot. Also, I did not say that the show will sink without the Thawne character: I said that the consitency of the quality will take a dip. Rosenbaum left Smallville after what, five seasons? The show stayed on the air for another five. So it is not as if The Flash would suddenly get cancelled if Thawne is removed from the equation. I just feel that the show will lose some of its appeal.

Actually, the 5 years in hell was referenced in the FIRST season, it wasn't a case of them running out of ideas.

 

[Arach Knight]

Actually, the 5 years in hell was referenced in the FIRST season, it wasn't a case of them running out of ideas.

And what does your comment prove exactly? It doesn't change the fact that the show began with the premise that Oliver was on Lian Yu for five years, only to change gears and claim that Oliver was gone for five years but not entirely on Lian Yu. Nothing you said negates that fact. Indeed, I can prove right now that the show began as I stated.

Skip ahead to the 1:00 mark and hear Ollie himself say

"The name of the island they found me on is Lian Yu: It's Mandarin for purgatory. I've been stranded here for five years. I've dreamt of my rescue every cold black night since then. For five years, I have had only one thought, one goal: survive. Survive and one day return home. The island held many dangers. To live, I had to make myself more than what I was: to forge myself into a weapon. I am returning, not the boy who was shipwrecked, but the man who will bring justice to those who have poisoned my city. My name is Oliver Queen."


[YT]/watch?v=OWMjzebP3WM[/YT]

That the show suddenly shifted the narrative to "five years in hell" shows that the writers have done exactly what I pointed out: front loaded the show, causing them to speed through good ideas. This show could have spent each season dealing with life on the island before Ollie returned to civilization, but that got thrown out the door once Slade became the villain for an arc, and after Waller was introduced. Honestly, I don't even know why the writers felt it necessary for Oliver to have a previous relationship with Amanda Waller. That plot line could have worked just fine without having Oliver connected to it in the past.

 

[The_Manhunter]

And what does your comment prove exactly? It doesn't change the fact that the show began with the premise that Oliver was on Lian Yu for five years, only to change gears and claim that Oliver was gone for five years but not entirely on Lian Yu. Nothing you said negates that fact. Indeed, I can prove right now that the show began as I stated.

Skip ahead to the 1:00 mark and hear Ollie himself say

"The name of the island they found me on is Lian Yu: It's Mandarin for purgatory. I've been stranded here for five years. I've dreamt of my rescue every cold black night since then. For five years, I have had only one thought, one goal: survive. Survive and one day return home. The island held many dangers. To live, I had to make myself more than what I was: to forge myself into a weapon. I am returning, not the boy who was shipwrecked, but the man who will bring justice to those who have poisoned my city. My name is Oliver Queen."


[YT]/watch?v=OWMjzebP3WM[/YT]

That the show suddenly shifted the narrative to "five years in hell" shows that the writers have done exactly what I pointed out: front loaded the show, causing them to speed through good ideas. This show could have spent each season dealing with life on the island before Ollie returned to civilization, but that got thrown out the door once Slade became the villain for an arc, and after Waller was introduced. Honestly, I don't even know why the writers felt it necessary for Oliver to have a previous relationship with Amanda Waller. That plot line could have worked just fine without having Oliver connected to it in the past.

Didn't Ollie say that he wasn't always on the island before Season 3 though? Plus I have enjoyed the Waller flashback stuff so I am OK with him leaving the island for a season, five consecutive seasons of the island may have gotten a bit stale or repetitive for me, even if done well.

Edit: How did we get on this topic in the Harrison Wells thread? Lol

 

[p4poetic]

Didn't Ollie say that he wasn't always on the island before Season 3 though? Plus I have enjoyed the Waller flashback stuff so I am OK with him leaving the island for a season, five consecutive seasons of the island may have gotten a bit stale or repetitive for me, even if done well.

Edit: How did we get on this topic in the Harrison Wells thread? Lol

I desperately want to see on The Flash. Especially interacting with Wells and Eiling.

 

[Arach Knight]

Didn't Ollie say that he wasn't always on the island before Season 3 though? Plus I have enjoyed the Waller flashback stuff so I am OK with him leaving the island for a season, five consecutive seasons of the island may have gotten a bit stale or repetitive for me, even if done well.

Edit: How did we get on this topic in the Harrison Wells thread? Lol

LOL

It is my fault, so apologies. I said that this show would risk taking a dip in storytelling quality if the Harrison Wells character is completely written out of the show. I compared it to the departure of Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville, which I feel was the moment that the show began to stray from what made it work best. Then several people disagreed with me and that led me to bringing up how Arrow has gotten spotty ever since the narrative about Lian Yu was changed, and how ultimately, all of these shows exhibit a problem with front loading their early seasons. So yeah, that's about it in a nutshell. As for Ollie and the island, I recall him admitting that he wasn't always on Lian Yu toward the end of season two, but some people swear it was the end of season one. My memory is a bit fuzzy on that, so I'll assume that other people know better and that he makes the admission toward the end of season one. Either way, Ollie doesn't wake up in Hong Kong until the final episode of season two. All of the other flashbacks during season two take place on Lian Yu.

 

[Batmannerism]

Back to the Flash, we only just got episode 17 last week, so we're a bit behind down here. Loved the flashback scenes, and I can ses why people are keen to have Cavanagh become the real Wells and Letscher play the RF, as TC was great as the benevolent HW, and ML was suitably villainous- I suppose that given the time travel aspects of the show this could be done, but then you could have both actors appear as the Reverse Flash at the same time, which I think would be even more epic.

Personally, I 'm predicting that the writers

Spoiler

go with the classic storyline of Barry killing the RF to protect his girl, so in this case Iris. That would make a great season ending, and still leaves it open for the RF to return -as Barrys future is his past. Mind you, the writers might be saving that for season 2. As long as its done well I dont care when it happens.

 

[godisawesome]

That's been my favorite theory about RF's trajectory. It provides you a good way to close the thread there, and yet have it open up again later. And since my favorite Flash story is Return of Barry Allen, so I'd love to see a younger, more reckless, much less patient Thawne in his early start. And if they do have some kind of Eddie replacement plan (it's a theory round here that I might not believe but can understand), imagine if they spent an entire arc with a seemingly doomed to evil Thawne, had him redeemed/killed, than have Eddie take up the mantle.

My other theory for how to replace Wells/Thawne as a driving force for the show would be to use Wally (Time traveler plot 2.0) or Jay (dimensional travel) as mysteries.

 

[Batmannerism]

That's been my favorite theory about RF's trajectory. It provides you a good way to close the thread there, and yet have it open up again later. And since my favorite Flash story is Return of Barry Allen, so I'd love to see a younger, more reckless, much less patient Thawne in his early start. And if they do have some kind of Eddie replacement plan (it's a theory round here that I might not believe but can understand), imagine if they spent an entire arc with a seemingly doomed to evil Thawne, had him redeemed/killed, than have Eddie take up the mantle.

My other theory for how to replace Wells/Thawne as a driving force for the show would be to use Wally (Time traveler plot 2.0) or Jay (dimensional travel) as mysteries.

Definitely ! Bring on Wally and Jay , time for "flash of two worlds". Personally Im not keen on the new 52 version of Wally, but if the show can make him interesting I could live with it. Another character who could turn up is Barry's old pal Hal Jordan.