Revenge of the Fallen Transformers: ROTF Box Office Discussion

[Episode29]

there is too much agenda's for that to happen

I personally want the film to be successful, powerful and part of pop culture again.

unlike say, Superman (returns)

It is successful. Wildly so.

Why do you seem so desperate for broad public opinion to validate your tastes?

 

[Dark Knight]

It's just the whiny internet people who hate it. The general movie going public is eatting this up.

Doesn't say much about the intelligence of the general movie going public does it?

 

[roach]

I love the 3 Stooges. Anytime they are on I have to watch because they are so hilarious. Saturday mornings I wake up early to catch the Stooges Marathon on Spike...I usually stop watching when they get to the Curly Joe episodes. Now its safe to say they there is no real artistic value to the Stooges. Nothing deep and mental about them. Just plain old physical comedy. I think that the world of movies is big enough for films like TDK or Schindler's List or Watchmen to exist at the same time as movies like Scary Movie, Step Brothers and ultimately Transformers. The problem with making every movie like TDK is that it takes away of what was special about TDK.

 

[roach]

Doesn't say much about the intelligence of the general movie going public does it?

or maybe the GA is intelligent enough to realize what this movie is

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

14.8mil sounds like a good monday number to me. And the tuesday 13.5mil number is also good. I see no proof of bad word of mouth so far which isn't shocking to me because the first awful movie had good word.

It's too bad that the studio is blatantly lying about the opening day number so they can push the movie over the 200mil mark in five days. They should be ashamed for openly lying like that. I'm just saying atleast hide it like other studios do.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I love the 3 Stooges. Anytime they are on I have to watch because they are so hilarious. Saturday mornings I wake up early to catch the Stooges Marathon on Spike...I usually stop watching when they get to the Curly Joe episodes. Now its safe to say they there is no real artistic value to the Stooges. Nothing deep and mental about them. Just plain old physical comedy. I think that the world of movies is big enough for films like TDK or Schindler's List or Watchmen to exist at the same time as movies like Scary Movie, Step Brothers and ultimately Transformers. The problem with making every movie like TDK is that it takes away of what was special about TDK.

I couldnt agree more with this post, I absolutely love movies like Fight Club, Memento, TDK, The Prestige, Seven, , Watchmen, I could go on and on about the intellegent movies I like. But NON of that stopped from immensely enjoying both Transformers movies.

 

[LostSon88]

Doesn't say much about the intelligence of the general movie going public does it?

And yet these are the same people who went out in droves to see TDK last summer...



Get off your high horse.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And yet these are the same people who went out in droves to see TDK last summer...



Get off your high horse.

Not to mention Iron Man.

 

[Marvin]

I'm curious what is it about ROTF that you liked? Your defense above is fair and well-reasoned but I'm someone who personally finds all of Bay's work cliched, sexist and mean-spirited and to me those aren't 'fun'. And the thing is there are aspects of that in say Judd Apatow's stuff(or a ton of other directors) but I don't mind because his films suceed in their primary aim of being funny. I've never, however, found myself genuinely thrilled by Bayhem (an accurate term)even though I admit the man has a talented eye. I don't and have never had genuine feelings for any of his characters therefore I emotionally remain blank during the action scenes.

mean spirited?
all his films have heart alot of it and good always wins out over "evil"
even if it's a blue collared oil driller saving the world and trying to be a good father at the same time, his stuff isn't that of eli roth's hostel or even quints pulp fiction

no, I do not think it's mean spirited at all, in a way it's naive...

some of his stuff in bad boys two is pretty gross but it's his one franchise that deals with drug cartels and narcotics officers
when it comes to those themes I've seen worse.

Sexist?
I'd say they are more sexy then sexist, the heroine's of his films are pretty and that's pretty much it but they are never objects, and are very proactive and very empowered

again go watch some of the women in eli roth's films

the word cliche doesn't apply to film imo
film is art, and like any painting whose say painting the sun yellow is a "cliche" move.
everything fits within it's own composition it all depends on weather you WANT" the sun to be yellow or you want it to be green
sure green maybe original but then again yellow may just feel more in place with the compostion...

it may feel more natural for the audience to accept.


what i personally like about most of his work is this
as an artist myself I find the directors biggest role is one of taken the written word from the script and presenting it to the audience in an interesting or clear or new...etc way.

visually bay does things alot of people just don't have the eye to

I watch the trailer for pearl harbor (visually) and then I watch superman returns and I sigh
I watch the human soldiers verses decepticons and then I see ratners wolverine standing behind a sentinels head...meh

Spielberg has said "bay has one of the best eyes in the biz"

that means alot to me, especially in the world of genre film making.

when it comes to telling a story(not writing one)
I find that bay has always worked with material that was never meant to be more then summer fun, so to hear everyone talk about his lack of depth, well I find it funny for his films have never had that intent(pearl harbor and the island not withstanding)

the rock was an example of bay shooting a really good script that dealt with post war soldiers and our perception of terrorism with strong actors the likes of connery and ed harris

I however am not a fan of those certain directors that get strong scripts and simply put the camera on a tripod and have the actors do all the work that the writers have set up for them...

at the end of the day bay makes something out of nothing for the most part

the problem is that's not good enough for most people.

with transformers

I imagine that if I was 8 years old again, it would be the greatest experience ever

moreso then say the over my head dark knight.

and that's because bay has fun, nolan tries to impress.

visually bay almost never misses opportunities, when I read that we'd se batman vs ninjas i wondered, then I was introduced to the never failing subtle visual eye of nolan.
I read that we'd see superman save a city's worth of disasters in 3 mins in the sun shine, what i got was the even more subtle eye of singer...

oh and bays photography training has changed the way ILM approaches their rendering.

 

[Marvin]

It is successful. Wildly so.

Why do you seem so desperate for broad public opinion to validate your tastes?

um, I'm for this film, you apparently just mis-interpreted my post

reading my post again, you'll see that I was the public has validated my tastes.

 

[terry78]

Michael Bay makes movies for guys. That is basically the gist of it. Yes, I know not all guys are into that type of ****, but the stereotypical "guy stuff" we're supposed to be into, "****, violence, crudeness, etc.", he never falls short.

 

[miggizle85]

Michael Bay makes movies for guys. That is basically the gist of it. Yes, I know not all guys are into that type of ****, but the stereotypical "guy stuff" we're supposed to be into, "****, violence, crudeness, etc.", he never falls short.

Guys and pre-pubecent boys. Don't forget the pre-pubecent boys that all the terribly childish jokes were intended for.

 

[Marvin]

jokes can be as "pre-pubecent" as they want, as long as the serious material of the piece isn't

for example, how many times in batman begins and Iron man was the womanizing ways of million dollar play boys played up to the laughs of the audience
(what kind of person finds womanizing jokes funny...)

but then the films got serious
more of that double standard crap

i assume it the jokes being made and the sheer number that upsets ppl not some much the presence of them.

 

[Dark Knight]

And yet these are the same people who went out in droves to see TDK last summer...



Get off your high horse.

Like I said....I watched the film because I wanted to see robots kick eachothers a$$es....but that didn't make the film good unfortunately. Thats' where Bay comes in and his dumbing down of movies. This Transformers film is comparable to Batman Forever. Remember that one?

Are they the same general movie audience? Not necessarily....

TDK was more mature and adult orientated than Transformers 1 and 2 and there were a lot more families with their children and teens that went to see Transformers 1 and 2 then BB and TDK. At least when I was in the theaters. TDK was still a comic book film based on a popular character, so that particular fanbase is set.

Transformers is a cartoon that has it's fanbase. Thats it....

Comparing the two films is irrelevant, it's comparing apples to oranges.

Like I said before....a more accurate comparison would be to compare Transformers 2 to Batman Forever or even Batman and Robin to a certain extent.

If your a fan of Michael Bay than you go right ahead, pump your chest and be proud to defend him and his style......while I laugh.

 

[Marvin]

If your a fan of Michael Bay than you go right ahead, pump your chest and be proud to defend him and his style......while I laugh.

feel free to defend his contemporaries, and their lack of it
(style that is)

 

[roach]

If your a fan of Michael Bay than you go right ahead, pump your chest and be proud to defend him and his style......while I laugh.

no need to defend him...the general audience is doing that by paying to see the movie

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

no need to defend him...the general audience is doing that by paying to see the movie

Exactly, and we dont need to defend him, do you really think he gives a **** when the movie is pulling these figures?

 

[bell110]

Dark_b is right. Every movie has its own unique style to them wither you love them or hate them to death and thats why most of these type of films are what they are and that is what it is. TDK is its own movie. Transformers is its own movie. They're different in its own aspect in terms of story, characters, tone structure and everything else. The problem is if every movie copied the same style as TDK, then it becomes repetitive and they wouldn't be very good movies. I'd get tired of the same layout if every film followed the same formula or tried to.

Keeping in mind, not every film is perfect.

Why does every single movue have to come back to TDK?

I'm not picking a fight or anything it just gets very annoying. With people comparing every single movie thats out not to TDK.

I mean please, can we just stop it.

I'm not saying Transformers should try to copy TDK's style. My point is that ultimately, Batman started as a comicbook character aimed at kids. People shrugging off bad story telling with, "Oh, it's based on a children's toy line, what do you expect" I think is a cop out. You can make a good story even if the source material was designed to appeal to children.

I love the 3 Stooges. Anytime they are on I have to watch because they are so hilarious. Saturday mornings I wake up early to catch the Stooges Marathon on Spike...I usually stop watching when they get to the Curly Joe episodes. Now its safe to say they there is no real artistic value to the Stooges. Nothing deep and mental about them. Just plain old physical comedy. I think that the world of movies is big enough for films like TDK or Schindler's List or Watchmen to exist at the same time as movies like Scary Movie, Step Brothers and ultimately Transformers. The problem with making every movie like TDK is that it takes away of what was special about TDK.

It's not about artistic value. I would have been happy with a coherent story and characters that you cared about.

 

[Marvin]

I'm not saying Transformers should try to copy TDK's style. My point is that ultimately, Batman started as a comicbook character aimed at kids. People shrugging off bad story telling with, "Oh, it's based on a children's toy line, what do you expect" I think is a cop out. You can make a good story even if the source material was designed to appeal to children.

batman is and was hardly as childish as transformers (g1)

as far as intent is concerned, batman wasn't simply a means to sell toys
i mean when hasbro wants to sell a new toy, even the well written beast wars wasn't immune

point being transformers was never for adults the way batman was.
and since the mid 80's batman has been nothing but dark and "adult"
some of his films tried for that 60's cheese and they quickly learned their lesson

(g1 fans apparently not)

It's not about artistic value. I would have been happy with a coherent story and characters that you cared about.

don't look twice but if a coherent story is all you want it's here
more over optimus is very cared about

shia is very cared about

and if bumble bee died I think more then one person would care

if your referring to the rest of the cast well, that's the way it works with ensemble heroics

just look at the xmen movies
there all about wolverine and a few others, but somewhere among the large cast of characters there are ppl you really don't care about.

as far as artistic value, as a visual artist and film maker myself, i find a lot of to appreciate withing the visual context of the film
from the photography to the character design.

 

[miggizle85]

jokes can be as "pre-pubecent" as they want, as long as the serious material of the piece isn't

for example, how many times in batman begins and Iron man was the womanizing ways of million dollar play boys played up to the laughs of the audience
(what kind of person finds womanizing jokes funny...)

but then the films got serious
more of that double standard crap

i assume it the jokes being made and the sheer number that upsets ppl not some much the presence of them.

It's one thing to play up the womanizing ways of million dollar play boys, it's quite another to go 2 for 2 in the franchise with such childish jokes as dudes hopping around in boxers, and people getting fluid squirted/urinated on them.

Double standard my ass.

 

[Marvin]

it was criticized long before it went two for two

the fluid in the second scene served a greater purpose to the plot then just being a comedic beat that play exceptionally well with the audience

and yes double standard,

 

[LostSon88]

If your a fan of Michael Bay than you go right ahead, pump your chest and be proud to defend him and his style......while I laugh.

You implyed that the general audience is basically 'stupid' for liking this movie. I stated that these are likely the same people that saw TDK last summer.

They had certain expectations for ROTF and based on the box office and positive word of mouth, they were met.

You also had certain expectations for ROTF and they were not.

That doesn't give you the right to then question the intelligence of those who enjoyed the film simply because you didn't.

Again, GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE.

 

[baerrtt]

mean spirited?
all his films have heart alot of it and good always wins out over "evil"
even if it's a blue collared oil driller saving the world and trying to be a good father at the same time, his stuff isn't that of eli roth's hostel or even quints pulp fiction

no, I do not think it's mean spirited at all, in a way it's naive...

some of his stuff in bad boys two is pretty gross but it's his one franchise that deals with drug cartels and narcotics officers
when it comes to those themes I've seen worse.

Sexist?
I'd say they are more sexy then sexist, the heroine's of his films are pretty and that's pretty much it but they are never objects, and are very proactive and very empowered

again go watch some of the women in eli roth's films

the word cliche doesn't apply to film imo
film is art, and like any painting whose say painting the sun yellow is a "cliche" move.
everything fits within it's own composition it all depends on weather you WANT" the sun to be yellow or you want it to be green
sure green maybe original but then again yellow may just feel more in place with the compostion...

it may feel more natural for the audience to accept.


what i personally like about most of his work is this
as an artist myself I find the directors biggest role is one of taken the written word from the script and presenting it to the audience in an interesting or clear or new...etc way.

visually bay does things alot of people just don't have the eye to

I watch the trailer for pearl harbor (visually) and then I watch superman returns and I sigh
I watch the human soldiers verses decepticons and then I see ratners wolverine standing behind a sentinels head...meh

Spielberg has said "bay has one of the best eyes in the biz"

that means alot to me, especially in the world of genre film making.

when it comes to telling a story(not writing one)
I find that bay has always worked with material that was never meant to be more then summer fun, so to hear everyone talk about his lack of depth, well I find it funny for his films have never had that intent(pearl harbor and the island not withstanding)

the rock was an example of bay shooting a really good script that dealt with post war soldiers and our perception of terrorism with strong actors the likes of connery and ed harris

I however am not a fan of those certain directors that get strong scripts and simply put the camera on a tripod and have the actors do all the work that the writers have set up for them...

at the end of the day bay makes something out of nothing for the most part

the problem is that's not good enough for most people.

with transformers

I imagine that if I was 8 years old again, it would be the greatest experience ever

moreso then say the over my head dark knight.

and that's because bay has fun, nolan tries to impress.

visually bay almost never misses opportunities, when I read that we'd se batman vs ninjas i wondered, then I was introduced to the never failing subtle visual eye of nolan.
I read that we'd see superman save a city's worth of disasters in 3 mins in the sun shine, what i got was the even more subtle eye of singer...

oh and bays photography training has changed the way ILM approaches their rendering.

Bay's women 'empowered'? A female character following her boyfriend around in a state of near undress is not what I call empowered or even sexy. Your just willing to defend every aspect of his work no matter how suspect it really is. Giving the general public 'what it wants' shouldn't be used as a defence. Because in 1915 the public turned out en masse to watch the KKK depicted as heroes in THE BIRTH OF A NATION. Are the public always right? Are directors who allow their prejudices (Bay being anti-foreign) free airing in their work to be congratulated simply because it does well?

Bay has visual talent (unlike Brett 'boring' Ratner) I'll always give him that but for me, at my age, it isn't enough anymore. Yeah it looks pretty but then so what?

 

[bell110]

batman is and was hardly as childish as transformers (g1)

as far as intent is concerned, batman wasn't simply a means to sell toys
i mean when hasbro wants to sell a new toy, even the well written beast wars wasn't immune

point being transformers was never for adults the way batman was.
and since the mid 80's batman has been nothing but dark and "adult"
some of his films tried for that 60's cheese and they quickly learned their lesson

(g1 fans apparently not)

Batman wasn't as childish as G1? Have you ever seen anything from the silver age? And Batman wasn't a means to sell toys because that wasn't the era. Batman was simply a means to sell cheaply made, mass produced products to turn a quick profit. And Batman wasn't aimed at adults, they were meant for children, and main stream opinion was if you were an adult reading comics, something was wrong with you. And no, it's still not nothing but dark and adult, have you seen Brave and the Bold?

don't look twice but if a coherent story is all you want it's here
more over optimus is very cared about

shia is very cared about

and if bumble bee died I think more then one person would care

if your referring to the rest of the cast well, that's the way it works with ensemble heroics

just look at the xmen movies
there all about wolverine and a few others, but somewhere among the large cast of characters there are ppl you really don't care about.

as far as artistic value, as a visual artist and film maker myself, i find a lot of to appreciate withing the visual context of the film
from the photography to the character design.

Optimus and Sam? Those are the only two who should be cared about?

Take your X-Men example, the first two movies; people cared about all the characters. Even the first TF movie, all the Autobots and most, if not all, of the humans you could care about. It's not the case with this movie. The only reason I can see for caring about most of the people in this movie is because they were already established in the first one. In this movie, I could not have cared less about any of the new characters introduced. And that is pretty sad. And the story was not coherent; it was all over the place.

Its funny how you brought up the purpose of Transformers is to sell toys. After the first movie, I bought all the characters from the film. I can't do that for this film. I can't bring myself to spend money on the Doltsen Twins or characters that were basically just set pieces. So in their desire to make people want to buy their toys, they even fail on that level.

I do agree that the graphics were nice, and I begrudgingly admit that Bay has a good eye for action, but doesn't save this movie.

 

[dark_b]

it was criticized long before it went two for two

the fluid in the second scene served a greater purpose to the plot then just being a comedic beat that play exceptionally well with the audience

and yes double standard,

this reminds me about something. a lot of jokes reminded me about IM and the humor in the movie.

of course if some jokes from ROTF would be in IM a lot of people wouldnt have a problem.
you are stupid if you laugh at TF2 jokes. you are normal if you laugh at IM jokes.thats why i think some people are thinking and saying.