World Truth, Justice, 'all that stuff'?

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FlameHead said:
Wow, I can't believe this conversation is being had.

The line was supposed to be funny.

thank you! that's how I took it as well. Superman stated in the first film that he stood for truth, justice, and the American way, which we can assume made it into Lois' article 'I Spent the night with Superman'. Perry was barking out orders to his staff and couldn't remember the exact quote.

I think you're all reading way too much into it.
 
FlameHead said:
Wow, I can't believe this conversation is being had.

The line was supposed to be funny.

Hm. I didn't hear any laughs.
Did anyone else?

Maybe if it was funny, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.
 
Malus said:
And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.

uh, hate to break it to you but Superman is a Canadian creation, at least in part. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto and the Daily Planet (or Daily Star as it was originally called) was based on The Toronto Star. perhaps you should know what you're talking about before you go spouting off about what we may or may not find insignificant based solely on where we live. ass.
 
Dope Nose said:
uh, hate to break it to you but Superman is a Canadian creation, at least in part. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto and the Daily Planet (or Daily Star as it was originally called) was based on The Toronto Star. perhaps you should know what you're talking about before you go spouting off about what we may or may not find insignificant based solely on where we live. ass.

Ah, so quick with the name-calling. How classy.:)

Superman was created and published in America by Americans. His character's stories have been almost exclusively set in the United States of America since the very beginning, when he wasn't helping the war effort or in outer space.
Metropolis is not in Canada, inspirations notwithstanding.

If there are any images from Superman's 70 year history that portray him standing majestically before the mapleleaf :rolleyes: I certainly haven't seen them.

Now if Joe Shuster was a Canadian citizen at the time he co-created Superman, that's worth noting, of course.
 
you're right. I apologize for the name-calling.

Joe Shuster was born in Canada, ergo he was a Canadian citizen. it's possible he had dual citizenship, but the fact remains that Superman was created by both an American and a Canadian, regardless of where it was published. the character himself is an immigrant who's creation was inspired by the writings of a German philosopher.

and yes, while the stories have been mostly set in the States, the fictional city of Metropolis is based on Toronto. this 'Superman belongs to America and no one else' attitude just seems like tunnel vision.
 
Conversely, the Superman belongs to the world and 'American' should be stricken from an established slogan is a sick appropriation of a defining character trait.
 
Dope Nose said:
you're right. I apologize for the name-calling.

Joe Shuster was born in Canada, ergo he was a Canadian citizen. it's possible he had dual citizenship, but the fact remains that Superman was created by both an American and a Canadian, regardless of where it was published. the character himself is an immigrant who's creation was inspired by the writings of a German philosopher.

and yes, while the stories have been mostly set in the States, the fictional city of Metropolis is based on Toronto. this 'Superman belongs to America and no one else' attitude just seems like tunnel vision.

If that's how I was coming off, I apologize. I just thought it was worth noting that 2 Canadians in a row found this fuss about "American way" being left out insignificant. (I was amused, not irritated.) Looking back over the thread, I think most of us Americans are at least a tad irked about the omission of the words, that's all.
It's quite possible that Jerry & Joe intended Metropolis' location to remain vague. I'm not sure when it was ever clarified that Metropolis was in the U.S. And it could very well be that clarification was something imposed by the publisher, sometime before they robbed poor Seigel & Shuster blind.

Personally, when I look at some of the overtly racist images of the Japanese in Captain America & Sub-Mariner comics from WWII, I'm very embarrassed. There may be similar stereotypes to be found in the Superman comics of that day; I really don't know. There's no question that the patriotic stuff was laid on very, very thick in most of the superhero comics of that day, possibly to a fault.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the planet first and foremost, and an American by fortunate chance. I would probably consider myself just as fortunate to have been born Canadian. In fact, my family has discussed the possibility of moving to Canada quite often over the years. (Hey, at least you guys have a health system that works from what my Canadian friends have told me.)

So yeah, no offense meant to our friends to the North. None whatsoever.
 
no apology necessary. I overreacted. I do honestly believe the line was meant in more of a 'yadda, yadda' sense though.

Malus said:
Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the planet first and foremost

"I just wish you could all see the Earth the way that I see it. Because when you really look at it, it's just one world."
 
Malus said:
Hm. I didn't hear any laughs.
Did anyone else?

Maybe if it was funny, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.

Hence the word 'supposed'. It's not my fault it didn't work in the particular screening that you seen. You see, things become cliche after a while and to spice things up, a director, or writer will make a choice to pay tribute to said cliche in a whole new way.

I admire the American pride. I really do. I just wish it didn't blind so many of you. You're bringing politics into something that is meant to take you away from all that crap. Movies are entertainment; a way for us to escape the world we live and to take offense to something so silly is crazy, in my honest opinion.

Besides, if you really want to bring politics into things, let's discuss the fact that perhaps Supes doesn't believe in the American way anymore. Perhaps he doesn't believe in creating terror attacks on their own soil in pretext for war. Perhaps he doesn't believe in war at all, which we all know is a major fueling of the American economy. Perhaps he doesn't like the fact that the US has been in some form of war for over sixty years. Perhaps he doesn't admire the war machine that is constantly being fueled by your so called leaders of the free world. Perhaps Supes now believes in Truth, Justice and say... Freedom, which is definitely NOT the American way.

If you want to get into politics, go fight for your freedom which is being gobbled away from you each and every day. If you want to fight for something, stop worrying about Hollywood and go stop those who are ruining your county and taking the world down with it. You're proud people, and again, I really admire that. Unfortunalty, what you once were proud of is no longer part of your society and if you all (WE all) don't do something about it soon, we'll all be in the prison they want us in.

Wow. That was quite the rant... and I'm sure I'll get **** for it but, that's life. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry. I only mean to inspire. Oh, and for the record, no offense taken by your Canadian comments.
 
thechubbysaint said:
Conversely, the Superman belongs to the world and 'American' should be stricken from an established slogan is a sick appropriation of a defining character trait.

Exactly.

Flamehead said:
perhaps Supes doesn't believe in the American way anymore.
I guess that's why he chose to continue to live here when he returned.:rolleyes:

Flamehead said:
Perhaps he doesn't believe in creating terror attacks on their own soil in pretext for war.
You state that like it's fact. Is there some secret knowledge you have that you'd like to share with us poor misguided Americans?
I have my own doubts about exactly what happened, but I'm not going to go spouting off in public as if I know.

Flamehead said:
Freedom, which is definitely NOT the American way.
Not even gonna dignify that one. If anyone else wants to shoot the fish in this barrel, be my guest.
 
Malus said:
If there are any images from Superman's 70 year history that portray him standing majestically before the mapleleaf :rolleyes: I certainly haven't seen them.

best I could do is our postage stamp.

superman3ay.jpg
 
Malus said:
I guess that's why he chose to continue to live here when he returned.:rolleyes:

Perhaps he realized that it's the place that needs the most help.

Malus said:
You state that like it's fact. Is there some secret knowledge you have that you'd like to share with us poor misguided Americans?
I have my own doubts about exactly what happened, but I'm not going to go spouting off in public as if I know.

I know there's enough facts to disprove any official story that has been fed to us. Plus, I have the right to exercise my opinion anywhere I please and I feel that the more people talk about these very things, the quicker we'll release ourselves from this prison we're all caught in.

Look, I feel bad for ranting here like that. It wasn't the thread to do so. I'm just so frustrated with how we've turned out as a human civilization, how we allowed our civilization to be this way.

I'm not blaming anything on the Americans. In fact, I'm counting on that American pride I'm so impressed with to rise up and fight the very powers that are taking your freedoms every single day. The battle between good and evil is heating up in this world and it's time for the good to wake up and see exactly what the evil is up too.

What is happening has been happening for over 300 years now and it's reaching a critical point here and now. There are bad people in your government. Bad people in the Canadian government and just about every other government that exists. There is a global elite controlling us. There is a New World Order and soon, they'll have the order they want. Unfortunatly for us, it's not going to be pretty.

Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.
 
FlameHead said:
Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.

not sure about that - Lex was president for a while and Superman couldn't do jack about it because it was the will of the American people that put him in office.
 
FlameHead said:
I know there's enough facts to disprove any official story that has been fed to us....I'm just so frustrated with how we've turned out as a human civilization, how we allowed our civilization to be this way. I'm not blaming anything on the Americans. In fact, I'm counting on that American pride I'm so impressed with to rise up and fight the very powers that are taking your freedoms every single day. The battle between good and evil is heating up in this world and it's time for the good to wake up and see exactly what the evil is up too... What is happening has been happening for over 300 years now and it's reaching a critical point here and now. There are bad people in your government. Bad people in the Canadian government and just about every other government that exists. There is a global elite controlling us. There is a New World Order and soon, they'll have the order they want. Unfortunatly for us, it's not going to be pretty.
Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.

:up: Flamehead, I agree with almost 100% of what you're saying. Thank you for expounding so eloquently about the troubling situation we find ourselves in.
All I have to add is that the ideals and principles of America are still very much alive in the hearts of most of its citizens, even if our nation has been hoodwinked and hijacked by men who do not act and live by those standards.

And we will set things right. I think you're about to see that begin happening in earnest with the autumn elections. And thank God for this technological age we live in. While it may aid the jackals at times, it will also serve to expose them and help bring about their undoing.
The world is getting smaller every day; thousands of pictures speaking millions of words. Evil is not so easily swept under the rug.

There is evil to root out and extinguish in the world, but we must take care not to embrace the darkness ourselves as we do what must be done to preserve civilization.
Our grandparents (or great grandparents, depending on your age) literally saved civilization just six decades ago from a still unfathomable evil. We must ensure that their sacrifices weren't in vain.

And yeah. A real Superman would sure come in handy right about now.
 
Malus said:
:up: Flamehead, I agree with almost 100% of what you're saying. Thank you for expounding so eloquently about the troubling situation we find ourselves in.
All I have to add is that the ideals and principles of America are still very much alive in the hearts of most of its citizens, even if our nation has been hoodwinked and hijacked by men who do not act and live by those standards.

And we will set things right. I think you're about to see that begin happening in earnest with the autumn elections. And thank God for this technological age we live in. While it may aid the jackals at times, it will also serve to expose them and help bring about their undoing.
The world is getting smaller every day; thousands of pictures speaking millions of words. Evil is not so easily swept under the rug.

There is evil to root out and extinguish in the world, but we must take care not to embrace the darkness ourselves as we do what must be done to preserve civilization.
Our grandparents (or great grandparents, depending on your age) literally saved civilization just six decades ago from a still unfathomable evil. We must ensure that their sacrifices weren't in vain.

And yeah. A real Superman would sure come in handy right about now.

Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

The mere fact that we have open debate and harsh regulation of different forms of discrimination is a major sign that we are more free (especially in the past 40 years).

Free speech has had a major boon with the advent of the internet. Thank the great American, Al gore, and the American military for that one.

There seems to be more evil in this country, but it is just more publicized. The press is as free as it ever was ( almost too free, see NYT). The national press can do alot of good when it comes to bulletins on criminals. It seems like there are lot out there, but this publicity and national databases has helped hinder their blending into society.

If this Iraq and Afghanistan conflict can succeed, the men you currently demonize would have brought freedom to 35-50 million people and stared down evil that perpertrated some of the worst atrocities ever.
 
thechubbysaint said:
Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

The mere fact that we have open debate and harsh regulation of different forms of discrimination is a major sign that we are more free (especially in the past 40 years).

Free speech has had a major boon with the advent of the internet. Thank the great American, Al gore, and the American military for that one.

There seems to be more evil in this country, but it is just more publicized. The press is as free as it ever was ( almost too free, see NYT). The national press can do alot of good when it comes to bulletins on criminals. It seems like there are lot out there, but this publicity and national databases has helped hinder their blending into society.

If this Iraq and Afghanistan conflict can succeed, the men you currently demonize would have brought freedom to 35-50 million people and stared down evil that perpertrated some of the worst atrocities ever.

I sincerely hope you are right.

But I wouldn't say I'm "demonizing" anyone. I do think we've seen a lot of dishonesty and corruption in our government recently, but again, that's nothing new. And there's no question the light of public attention and scrutiny is extra bright right now.

And I'm definitely with you on the treasonous actions of the NY Times. There should be a price to pay. Their little expose may have indirectly cost hundreds, even thousands of lives. And not just American lives, but the lives of our friends and allies as well.
 
thechubbysaint said:
Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

you don't seriously believe that, do you? I suppose if you define freedom as unconstitutional wire tapping and data mining...

Malus said:
And I'm definitely with you on the treasonous actions of the NY Times. There should be a price to pay.

like the price Carl Rove had to pay for leaking the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame? oh, wait...
 
Dope Nose said:
like the price Carl Rove had to pay for leaking the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame?

YES. Exactly. He should never have gotten a pass on that. It's beyond shameful.
The problem is a lot more complex than just a corrupt administration. A mostly liberal-biased media, an inexplicably popular right-wing propaganda machine (Fox news) and a large portion of society that is sadly apathetic...All of these are playing a part in the American identity crisis.
 
Well folks, there's no longer any question that the screenwriters intentionally omitted the phrase. It's on the front page of the Drudge Report right now (Friday June 30th)...http://www.drudgereport.com/
EXCERPTED From The Hollywood Reporter: said:
June 30, 2006


Superman eschews longtime patriot act

By Tatiana Siegel

Nevermind Superman's sexual orientation. Here's another identity-related question that is likely to spark controversy as the Man of Steel soars into theaters nationwide this Fourth of July weekend in Warner Bros. Pictures' "Superman Returns": Is Superman still American?

Ever since artist Joe Shuster and writer Jerry Siegel created the granddaddy of all comic book icons in 1932, Superman has fought valiantly to preserve "truth, justice and the American way." Whether kicking Nazi ass on the radio in the '40s or wrapping himself in the Stars and Stripes on TV during the Cold War or even rescuing the White House's flag as his final feat in "Superman II," the Krypton-born, Smallville-raised Ubermensch always has been steeped in unmistakable U.S. symbolism.

But in the latest film incarnation, scribes Michael Dougherty and Dan Harris sought to downplay Superman's long-standing patriot act. With one brief line uttered by actor Frank Langella, the caped superhero's mission transformed from "truth, justice and the American way" to "truth, justice and all that stuff."

"The world has changed. The world is a different place," Pennsylvania native Harris says. "The truth is he's an alien. He was sent from another planet. He has landed on the planet Earth, and he is here for everybody. He's an international superhero."

In fact, Dougherty and Harris never even considered including "the American way" in their screenplay. After the wunderkind writing duo ("X2: X-Men United") conceived "Superman's" story with director Bryan Singer during a Hawaiian vacation, they penned their first draft together and intentionally omitted what they considered to be a loaded and antiquated expression. That decision stood throughout the 140-day shoot in Australia, where the pair remained on-set to provide revisions and tweaks.

"We were always hesitant to include the term 'American way' because the meaning of that today is somewhat uncertain," Ohio native Dougherty explains. "The ideal hasn't changed. I think when people say 'American way,' they're actually talking about what the 'American way' meant back in the '40s and '50s, which was something more noble and idealistic."

While audiences in Dubuque might bristle at Superman's newfound global agenda, patrons in Dubai likely will find the DC Comics protagonist more palatable. And with the increasing importance of the overseas boxoffice -- as evidenced by summer tentpoles like "The Da Vinci Code" -- foreign sensibilities can no longer be ignored.

"So, you play the movie in a foreign country, and you say, 'What does he stand for? -- truth, justice and the American way.' I think a lot of people's opinions of what the American way means outside of this country are different from what the line actually means (in Superman lore) because they are not the same anymore," Harris says. "And (using that line) would taint the meaning of what he is saying."

But for Superman purists looking for a nod to the big blue Boy Scout's nationalistic loyalties, he is still saving Americans, albeit many with suspiciously Aussie accents. He foils Lex Luthor's nefarious plan to send millions from the nation's heartland to a watery death. And in his most impressive scene, the hero saves the day while a plane hurtles toward a baseball stadium full of fans enjoying America's pastime. Although there is no indication that it is an American baseball game depicted, the scene was one of the few shot on U.S. soil, at Dodger Stadium.

Nevertheless, the long-standing member of the Justice League of America seems to have traded in his allegiance to the flag for an international passport.

"He's here for humanity," Dougherty says..
 
Superman has not, in fact, fought for 'truth, justice and the American way' since his creation. The character had been in print for nearly five years when the phrase was first uttered on the radio show in late 1942. It was retired by 1944, and was reintroduced in 1952 in 'The Adventures of Superman' television series. In the Fleischer cartoons ('41-'43) he fought 'a never-ending battle for truth and justice'. In the first live-action serial (1948) he fought for 'truth, tolerance, and justice' (imagine the uproar if they had brought that word back).

In fact, if you want to really go back to the creation of Superman, the character was generally battling crooked industrialists, financiers and landlords in the late '30's. In Action Comics #8, he attempts to level a slum in order to force the government to build decent, affordable housing for the poor, and is promptly attacked by the National Guard. That's the hero created by Siegel and Shuster.

Guess that makes Supes a bleeding-heart leftist anti-capitalist radical.
 
Dope Nose said:
you don't seriously believe that, do you? I suppose if you define freedom as unconstitutional wire tapping and data mining...

Dope, I suggest you look at what other Presidents have doen in the past wars. Especially the great ones like Lincoln and Roosevelt.

Yeah, the wire taps were constitutional as well as the data mining(at least the most recent one).
 
atomicbattery said:
Superman has not, in fact, fought for 'truth, justice and the American way' since his creation. The character had been in print for nearly five years when the phrase was first uttered on the radio show in late 1942. It was retired by 1944, and was reintroduced in 1952 in 'The Adventures of Superman' television series. In the Fleischer cartoons ('41-'43) he fought 'a never-ending battle for truth and justice'. In the first live-action serial (1948) he fought for 'truth, tolerance, and justice' (imagine the uproar if they had brought that word back).

In fact, if you want to really go back to the creation of Superman, the character was generally battling crooked industrialists, financiers and landlords in the late '30's. In Action Comics #8, he attempts to level a slum in order to force the government to build decent, affordable housing for the poor, and is promptly attacked by the National Guard. That's the hero created by Siegel and Shuster.

Guess that makes Supes a bleeding-heart leftist anti-capitalist radical.

I guess so...;)

Good info. :up:
 
Lets not forget that S and S chose the red, blue and yellow to symbolize America (white wouldn't work).

As far as fighting for truth justice and the American way since his creation...you could argue that HE DID do that even in your examples. America has always been about opportunity and chance for the little guy (don't believe me ask the millions of immigrants throughtout the decades). Superman was standing for the little guy, which despite the 90's-now, America has symbolized that standing.
 

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