Ultimate Comics Thread - Part 1

[Primal Slayer]

Only problem I have with this new Spidey is his age. Would much prefer if he were 16+ not in middle school.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

My only problem with it is that Marvel is making a big deal out of his race, while trying to make the point that they are somehow not making a big deal out of race. The press announcements and interviews have basically all centered around his race, Marvel, Bendis and Axel have barely talked about ANY other traits of his character. They basically are telling everyone "hey, you don't know crap about this character, his personality, his favorite foods, what his schoolmates are like, but you DO know he's black-hispanic". Funny thing is, I gathered he was black from the art in "Ultimate Fallout", but the hispanic thing I would not have known until seeing his "Puerto Rican mother" who is as of yet unrevealed (and will be in the new Ult. Comics Spider-Man#1). It's almost as if Bendis didn't care if you knew A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G about this kid except "he's black-hispanic", they even peppered in a few other meaningless facts like "he's thirteen" and specifically "Puerto Rican". I'd almost be more interested in finding out he has an expensive comic book habit, or likes Notorious B.I.G, or has a problem talking to women, has asberger's (which by the way is a great idea if you know anything about the condition - could be an interesting commentary on why a person might don a mask).

The whole Ultimate Fallout reveal and the prior press release was this very blunt remark about how "diverse" and "tolerant" the beloved progressive Marvel staff was. Maybe if this was 1970, or 1964 I'd be the least bit interested. I've seen an entire comic company launch a black hero (Spawn - ironically now white), and basically their entire company on his back - even getting a crappy movie. I'm not remotely impressed, nor do I give a sh** you now have an alternate reality version of a flagship character who is black -- oh an also hispanic -- can't forget that. Did anyone tell Axel, Bendis and Quesada we have a Black President now? Yet you felt the need to leak this to the press as if you'd taken some large step towards racial equality.

Don't get me wrong, I know I'm being heavily sarcastic, but I'm all for this kind of change and this kind of character. I think him being just a Spider-Man replacement is kind of daft, but I understand why they chose him. I'm just instantly turned off by the clearing superficial attitude Marvel has expressed about him. I would rather see Marvel be as non-chalant about his race as they seem to want their readers to be. This is not newsworthy. You guys already made the mainstream 616 Punisher black with no fanfare, although that was unintentionally hilarious. However if they want to prove how ballsy they are they should produce a black Spider cartoon (since the Ultimate one is in the works), otherwise this really isn't groundbreaking, nor do we know it won't be over in a few months if the sales tank. That happens too, a lot more than not. Bendis can say he'll stick to this, but until the actual $$$ comes back in this is a dubious promise. Companies words are only good when dollar signs back it up, I can say this managing one.

I'd like to see this succeed in a way, but in a way I wouldn't if they purely make this about the character's race from here on out. That in fact was the main mistake they made in Punisher in the 1990s. Outside of the silliness of the whole thing, they immediately referenced his race every 6 seconds, turning him into a basic stereotype even though his personality didn't become a caricature the writing of the book did. As I say, from the current track Marvel has taken announcing his race, I could foresee this being a problem.

 

[Saint]

As important as I think it is for comics to break back into the mainstream, when mainstream news outlets pick up stories like this, I think it hurts us more than anything.

Case and point, my Dad heard the news and understood it as Marvel killing Spider-Man, not Marvel killing Ultimate Spider-Man. Either these outlets aren't reporting the facts adequately or people who don't read comics aren't grasping the distinction.

It reminds me of the Captain America debacle; when Steve was replaced, there were places reporting "The new Captain America uses a gun," nevermind that Steve Rogers had used guns plenty of times.

The mainstream media is more interested in attention grabbing headlines than actually informing people, which really doesn't help the comics industry much. A bunch of people come away with an incomplete and out of context understanding of the matter, and that doesn't serve the industry. That's how poor snap judgments are made.

As for the new Spider-Man? I'm glad he's a new character. I didn't want to see an established character shoehorned into the Spider-Man role. I'm intrigued to see where this goes.

As for the whole race issue? His race doesn't matter to me, and if it matters to you, you're an idiot. Fact. That's really all I think needs to be said about the matter.

 

[Saint]

My only problem with it is that Marvel is making a big deal out of his race, while trying to make the point that they are somehow not making a big deal out of race.

That's a fair point. It's a lot like when DC announced gay Batwoman. I mean, it's nice that she's gay, that's not a big deal to me either way--but I think it's kind of weird that they were making a big deal out of it.

I wish people were comfortable enough with this stuff that we could have these diverse heroes without having to try so hard.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

As for the new Spider-Man? I'm glad he's a new character. I didn't want to see an established character shoehorned into the Spider-Man role. I'm intrigued to see where this goes.

I wish it had been a pre-existing character. Even running the risk of shoehorning, a completely new character that comes out of left field just seems like a desperate attempt to keep the title alive. They had plenty of other characters that I feel could've slipped into the role quite easily.

I can't remember who it was (sorry, whoever it was, but credit to you) suggested Hobie Brown. That alone was a pre-existing character that also filled their apparently desperate need to use a minority.

edit: so I just looked it up and apparently Ultimate Hobie Brown only exists as a name in some criminal database or something. Either way, he's a character that people know from 616.

 

[Saint]

I wish it had been a pre-existing character. Even running the risk of shoehorning, a completely new character that comes out of left field just seems like a desperate attempt to keep the title alive. They had plenty of other characters that I feel could've slipped into the role quite easily.

I can't remember who it was (sorry, whoever it was, but credit to you) suggested Hobie Brown. That alone was a pre-existing character that also filled their apparently desperate need to use a minority.

But wouldn't Brown be just as new to the Ultimate Universe as a completely new character? I'm not sure I understand how using an existing character or a new character is any more or less desperate, anyway.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

But wouldn't Brown be just as new to the Ultimate Universe as a completely new character? I'm not sure I understand how using an existing character or a new character is any more or less desperate, anyway.

Yeah, I realized that after I made my initial post.

I feel like if there were a pre-existing character that could swoop in and take over for Peter, it would just transition smoother from a story-telling perspective.

They told their Peter Parker story, and now it's finished. So now they're jumping in to another character's story that (as far as we know) has no relationship to Peter's. They have to fill in the gaps for us and explain who this new guy is and why he's carrying on Peter's fight. They could've used a previously established supporting character and transitioned more smoothly into building his own story rather than filling pages with backstory for the new guy.

 

[Kevin]

The way I see it (and I haven't read the issue yet) is if they used a pre existing character then Peter would end up being their Uncle Ben. I'm a bit tired of uncle ben, if you know what I mean. For all we know Peter inspiring a new guy out of no where would be far more interesting of a story because to me, if they used anyone connected to peter then they would still be telling peter's story.

 

[Saint]

Yeah, I realized that after I made my initial post.

I feel like if there were a pre-existing character that could swoop in and take over for Peter, it would just transition smoother from a story-telling perspective.

They told their Peter Parker story, and now it's finished. So now they're jumping in to another character's story that (as far as we know) has no relationship to Peter's. They have to fill in the gaps for us and explain who this new guy is and why he's carrying on Peter's fight. They could've used a previously established supporting character and transitioned more smoothly into building his own story rather than filling pages with backstory for the new guy.

I think Bendis said something about this new character having a connection to Peter that inspires him to become Spider-Man in a way the recalls the reasons Peter became Spider-Man (someone feel free to correct me if they have better information), which I'm more comfortable with than I am an established character who wasn't built for the role being placed in it.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

The way I see it (and I haven't read the issue yet) is if they used a pre existing character then Peter would end up being their Uncle Ben. I'm a bit tired of uncle ben, if you know what I mean. For all we know Peter inspiring a new guy out of no where would be far more interesting of a story because to me, if they used anyone connected to peter then they would still be telling peter's story.

I think I would've liked that, actually. Make Peter's story come full circle and end it in a mirrored fashion of how it began.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

That's a fair point. It's a lot like when DC announced gay Batwoman. I mean, it's nice that she's gay, that's not a big deal to me either way--but I think it's kind of weird that they were making a big deal out of it.

I wish people were comfortable enough with this stuff that we could have these diverse heroes without having to try so hard.

Honestly though, these guys working in the upper echelons of the comic industry are probably a fair bit older, so I think they have some of that latent beliefs that race is huge deal and we must make a huge deal out of it. Whereas that doesn't affect their younger readers, who read this stuff and go "WTF I don't care, I never cared". I think that's where the polarity comes from really. I also think that's why Spawn was able to do it so seemlessly. In Spawn his race, even when he changed to the white Jim Downing, wasn't ever turned into an issue. It was like "This is Spawn, he's this military dude, who is a bada**, he's got this wife...blah blah blah...oh, did you even notice he was black, completely slipped our minds" and so everyone just merrily went along with it. They haven't started on that ground already, and the first issue hasn't even hit. Now I'm dubious they can write a book where race isn't going to be a massive elephant in the room. He's officially Black-Spider-Man from day friggin' one, saddled with that identity. He's not just "Spider-Man", even Miguel O'Hara, with his obvious name didn't make this mistake. He made the year the most important change, and it's almost an afterthought that he's hispanic. Not here, not here. That's really the way comic companies have always launched successful minority characters. Storm was a mutant first before Xavier ever addressed her race. John Stewart immediately made his first appearance by doing a story about not judging ability and character due to race. Even recently Blue Beetle put himself out there on cartoons and comics in a way that made his race incidental. Oddly enough, this is really what white characters always do, and that's why it works across the board. Peter Parker's "whiteness" was never made an issue, that's why a character like Miles Morales can ABSOLUTELY work, because it's about the man inside for characters like Spider-Man. Here they deliberately made it about the man-outside from press release ONE, and Axel, Bendis and Marvel all made comment on this first. That immediately turned me off because it seemed like pandering.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

whoah. Paragraphs are your friend. Use that return key, man.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

One thing is I'd suggest is HAVE BOTH PARENTS ALIVE AND "HAPPY" and have SIBLINGS. That will really separate it from most mainstream flagship characters. No more being a hero cuz tragedy compelled me, stick a bit of "I just want some excitement in my life cause I have cool powers now". Just have him be a good person for the sake of being a good person. That I'd like to see.

 

[El Bastardo]

Couldn't care less about who this new Spidey is supposed to be, or whatever, but one of my issues had a first glimpse at Hickman's Ultimates #1 and it is

 

[Spade]

The mainstream media is more interested in attention grabbing headlines than actually informing people

Sensationalism sells. Thinking is boring. Viewers would rather tune in to see the latest threat to their way of life they should lock their doors over, and if that can be comics, movies, or video games, then great; Baby Boomers plus a fear of the future equals more views for tonight.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

There is an interesting contrast between this and the announcement of Perry White's casting. DC didn't come out and say "look who's playing the BLACK Perry White, doesn't that bring diversity to the cast?". They basically said "Lawrence Fishburne is playing Perry White, joining a list of actors like Frank Langela and Michael McKean to name a few, and if y'all don't like it suck on this". They stated it as if they were unaware they'd just cast a black guy in a white person's character, and the reaction has been generally positive from what I've seen. Here Marvel took the opposite track and made very clear this was the black/Hispanic Spider-Man.

 

[kguillou]

I'll tell you one thing, this new Spiderman is going to be the ultimate (pun intended) test in terms of introducing new characters. These days whenever new characters are introduced in comics like Avengers Academy, Young Avengers, New X-men, Generation Hope etc etc, people just don't seem to care and sales on those books tank because they're not the A-list heroes everyone knows. Bendis is using an interesting strategy here. He gave a brand new character the role of marvel's A-list superhero. Its going to be VERY interesting to see how this book does sales-wise. It will demonstrate whether people are primarily reading a Spiderman book for "Spider-man" or are they picking it up for "Spider-man AND Peter Parker"?

 

[Drz]

Only two years younger than Peter when he started out and plus kids age quicker these days.

Yeah, but it's still so big in my opinion. A mere 13 year old youngster againts all the vile grimdarkness of the supervillains? I can't help but to root for this lil champion.

My only problem with it is that Marvel is making a big deal out of his race, while trying to make the point that they are somehow not making a big deal out of race. The press announcements and interviews have basically all centered around his race, Marvel, Bendis and Axel have barely talked about ANY other traits of his character.

Well if you pick up Ultimate Fallout #4 you can see some of his traits.

As for the whole race issue? His race doesn't matter to me, and if it matters to you, you're an idiot. Fact. That's really all I think needs to be said about the matter.

Thank you.

They told their Peter Parker story, and now it's finished. So now they're jumping in to another character's story that (as far as we know) has no relationship to Peter's. They have to fill in the gaps for us and explain who this new guy is and why he's carrying on Peter's fight. They could've used a previously established supporting character and transitioned more smoothly into building his own story rather than filling pages with backstory for the new guy.

Mile Morales' origin is in #1, the reason he's carrying Peter's fight has been explained: Peter Parker is the "Uncle Ben" for this guy, he feels inspired to do the right thing because the whole world knows Peter Parker = Spider-Man.

Couldn't care less about who this new Spidey is supposed to be, or whatever, but one of my issues had a first glimpse at Hickman's Ultimates #1 and it is

Are you a fan of his FF? In Ultimate Fallout #4 we learn whos the villain of Ultimates 1st arc: Evil Reed Richards with his take on Future Foundation. Yeah some people can say "lols Hickman is just reusing his idea" but honestly isn't it very interesting to see how a Evil Reed Richards would use something like the Future Foundation for? Here theyre called the Children of Tomorow, but they got very similiar design.

There is an interesting contrast between this and the announcement of Perry White's casting. DC didn't come out and say "look who's playing the BLACK Perry White, doesn't that bring diversity to the cast?". They basically said "Lawrence Fishburne is playing Perry White, joining a list of actors like Frank Langela and Michael McKean to name a few, and if y'all don't like it suck on this". They stated it as if they were unaware they'd just cast a black guy in a white person's character, and the reaction has been generally positive from what I've seen. Here Marvel took the opposite track and made very clear this was the black/Hispanic Spider-Man.

Don't compare this with comics, you didn't see Marvel make a big deal about Idris Elba being Heimdall either. Theres alot more in announcing a world withouth Peter Parker, a 13 year old kid taking up the legacy and continuing the good fight than a supporting character being casted in a comic book movie.

I'll tell you one thing, this new Spiderman is going to be the ultimate (pun intended) test in terms of introducing new characters. These days whenever new characters are introduced in comics like Avengers Academy, Young Avengers, New X-men, Generation Hope etc etc, people just don't seem to care and sales on those books tank because they're not the A-list heroes everyone knows. Bendis is using an interesting strategy here. He gave a brand new character the role of marvel's A-list superhero. Its going to be VERY interesting to see how this book does sales-wise. It will demonstrate whether people are primarily reading a Spiderman book for "Spider-man" or are they picking it up for "Spider-man AND Peter Parker"?

I just wish these books we're 2.99 to be honest. :P

Anyhow so hey! I read Ultimate Fallout #4! My thoughts:
- Miles Morales is a very childalike and he has that childlike charm, really made me think of Captain Marvel.
- He has his powers already, but those are explained in #1, he realizes he has this Spider sense, but he's not realizing it's full potential
- So in short: He has a sense of humour thats different enough from Parker and has a much younger and seemingly optimistic attitude just like a teenager has.
- Oh and the citizens who see the new Spidey? They think he's insulting Peter Parker's legacy.

The issue also has Nick Spencer and Jonathan Hickman building up for their 1st arcs of theri own titles, with Spencer we got the "wikileaks" on the Mutant race coming and on Hickman we got Reed Richard's next plan brewing up, remember new readers: Ultimate Reed Richards is a villain in this universe.

 

[thebatsam]

This is going to be a very stupid question (and don't flame me please, because I'm not that keyed up on everything) but is Peter Parker permanently dead in the Ultimate universe now? So we will not see him come back in some odd way?

 

[Drz]

Yep, he's dead. No plans to bring him back next year with the debut of Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Well if you pick up Ultimate Fallout #4 you can see some of his traits.

Very few, and I understand the comic not being too detailed because you'd rather leave the bulk of his story for issue number one of his own comic. That I don't really think is my issue. My issue is all they've spoiled to the press surrounds his race. Axel Alonso and Bendis have made no attempt to side step the issue. Like Bendis spoiled he "was 13" and has a "Puerto Rican mother", one of those facts being, again, very race related. I assumed his parents were not both white people, or Asians, or Native Americans. I think Marvel should've been more cautious and made their announcements and statements to the press about unique character traits he has; like is he an athlete? Does he aspire to be? Does he like math? Can we look forward to something like Peter Parker in his middle school experience, or will this be someone who falls into a different clique? Those kinds of things get me interested in a character. I feel like so far Marvel has failed to recognize this with the media frenzy they are trying to create about his race. This won't get people to buy books, it will get people to go "wow, ummm okay". They've just generated hype over the reveal, not the character, they need to focus of making him appealing to the audience first rather than making an issue out of his race - like with Spawn (although admittedly I think MacFarlane's a hack, you can't deny his success there).

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Don't compare this with comics, you didn't see Marvel make a big deal about Idris Elba being Heimdall either. Theres alot more in announcing a world withouth Peter Parker, a 13 year old kid taking up the legacy and continuing the good fight than a supporting character being casted in a comic book movie.

There really isn't, especially when you consider Ult. Spider-Man basically is a supporting character. He's not the focus of their new movies or their new cartoon, so basically he's like Superboy or Nightwing.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yep, he's dead. No plans to bring him back next year with the debut of Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.

This all will go back to sales. If they find the character unprofitable, and they wish to continue Spider-Man as a part of the Ultimate line you may see him come back. There is no "Yep, he's dead" in comic books. Although he probably will be aided by Peter Parker still being Spider-Man in every other comic they publish (in 616).

 

[Drz]

Very few, and I understand the comic not being too detailed because you'd rather leave the bulk of his story for issue number one of his own comic. That I don't really think is my issue. My issue is all they've spoiled to the press surrounds his race. Axel Alonso and Bendis have made no attempt to side step the issue. Like Bendis spoiled he "was 13" and has a "Puerto Rican mother", one of those facts being, again, very race related. I assumed his parents were not both white people, or Asians, or Native Americans. I think Marvel should've been more cautious and made their announcements and statements to the press about unique character traits he has; like is he an athlete? Does he aspire to be? Does he like math? Can we look forward to something like Peter Parker in his middle school experience, or will this be someone who falls into a different clique? Those kinds of things get me interested in a character. I feel like so far Marvel has failed to recognize this with the media frenzy they are trying to create about his race. This won't get people to buy books, it will get people to go "wow, ummm okay". They've just generated hype over the reveal, not the character, they need to focus of making him appealing to the audience first rather than making an issue out of his race - like with Spawn (although admittedly I think MacFarlane's a hack, you can't deny his success there).

Well all i can tell you is to wait for the #1 preview and you'll learn more.

There really isn't, especially when you consider Ult. Spider-Man basically is a supporting character. He's not the focus of their new movies or their new cartoon, so basically he's like Superboy or Nightwing.

He's the star of his own comic book, this comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I mean this is like saying Ultimate Peter Parker was a supporting character as well, since the cartoon Spider-Man will also be different from the Ultimate Spidey despite the "Ultimate" in the title. You never saw Agent Coulson in Ultimate Marvel, yet he's the principal at Peter's school, you never saw Spider-Man turning into Spider-Ham, but he will in the tv show, and the show's focus is Spidey teaming up with tons of heroes, again something different from the Ultimate Marvel, because the comics focus was never constantly teaming up with others.

This all will go back to sales. If they find the character unprofitable, and they wish to continue Spider-Man as a part of the Ultimate line you may see him come back. There is no "Yep, he's dead" in comic books. Although he probably will be aided by Peter Parker still being Spider-Man in every other comic they publish (in 616).

Like i said, aslong as Bendis is the top dog at Marvel, Ultimate Spider-Man will never die despite the sales.

PS. Edit button is your friend, no need to triple post!

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[kguillou]

You know, one thing that irks me about all this is i was really really looking forward to seeing what Bendis was going to do with the whole "Peter training with the Ultimates" thing. That was SUCH a cool idea and i wanted to see it pan out, but nothing ever became of it because of his death. It would have been great to see Pete possibly join the Ultimates or something. Oh well.