Ultimate Comics Thread - Part 1

[Optimus_Prime_]

He's the star of his own comic book, this comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Superboy and Nightwing both have rather successful ongoings, how is this a poor comparison. Point is they are second tier Superman and Batman characters. To the general public the alternate dimension stuff is irrelevant. Peter Parker is STILL Spider-Man in most of the books, and will be the star of both the new movie trilogy (if the reboot is successful) and the new cartoon. So this is a minor change at best. Would you argue Spider-Man 2099 was an A-Lister, cause he had his own book. Miles Morales is a "Spider-Man" spinoff.

I mean this is like saying Ultimate Peter Parker was a supporting character as well, since the cartoon Spider-Man will also be different from the Ultimate Spidey despite the "Ultimate" in the title. You never saw Agent Coulson in Ultimate Marvel, yet he's the principal at Peter's school, you never saw Spider-Man turning into Spider-Ham, but he will in the tv show, and the show's focus is Spidey teaming up with tons of heroes, again something different from the Ultimate Marvel, because the comics focus was never constantly teaming up with others.

I said he's BASICALLY a supporting character because he's basically a Spider-Man knock-off, much like Spider-Man 2099. He has ties to the Spider-Man Universe, but much like Batwing, Nightwing, Superboy and many other characters like those he is not the proven bread winner.

Like i said, aslong as Bendis is the top dog at Marvel, Ultimate Spider-Man will never die despite the sales.

Even Alan Moore can't prevent his underperforming books from being cancelled. Ultimate Spider-Man can die. It doesn't matter how much you've written either. If the book underperforms, it won't matter.

 

[El Bastardo]

Are you a fan of his FF? In Ultimate Fallout #4 we learn whos the villain of Ultimates 1st arc: Evil Reed Richards with his take on Future Foundation. Yeah some people can say "lols Hickman is just reusing his idea" but honestly isn't it very interesting to see how a Evil Reed Richards would use something like the Future Foundation for? Here theyre called the Children of Tomorow, but they got very similiar design.

Haven't read it. I couldn't care less, though. Hickman is a very solid writer who should have been at this height at least a couple years ago. As for Reed, considering I bought all twelve issues of Bendis's Ultimate Whatever trilogy where pretty much nothing happend, I'll consider myself interested in seeing what Hickman does with Reed, so I can at least delude myself into thinking I got some meaningful story for my previously-spent money.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Well all i can tell you is to wait for the #1 preview and you'll learn more.

That preview won't make the mainstream media. I think if Marvel was going to spoil the man underneath the mask, it was the perfect time to reveal some of that stuff. If you're going to spoil me, spoil me with something that will make me buy the book. Right now, I can tell you I'm not interested enough to buy it. That may change with the preview.

 

[Drz]

Superboy and Nightwing both have rather successful ongoings, how is this a poor comparison.

Because you said Miles Morales would be like "2nd" tier or "Teen" hero to DC's "1st tier" or "Adult" tier heroes more or less because he's not Peter Parker. Miles Morales is going to be the star of Ultimate Spider-Man and calling him a supporting character just seems silly.

Point is they are second tier Superman and Batman characters.

And we can't know what will happen to Miles Morales, the earliest we can tell is when a good amount of time has passed.

To the general public the alternate dimension stuff is irrelevant.

The general public sure has cared about this alternate dimension from what i've seen.

Miles Morales is a "Spider-Man" spinoff.

Ultimate Peter Parker is a "Spider-Man" spinoff, but for alot of people it was a new starting point and have kept reading it for 10 years, now theres a new starting point for old and new fans alike.

Movies and cartoons are also "spinoff Spider-Man" incarnations.

Even Alan Moore can't prevent his underperforming books from being cancelled. Ultimate Spider-Man can die. It doesn't matter how much you've written either. If the book underperforms, it won't matter.

Tell that to Bendis, Quesada and Tom Brevoort, not me.

That preview won't make the mainstream media. I think if Marvel was going to spoil the man underneath the mask, it was the perfect time to reveal some of that stuff. If you're going to spoil me, spoil me with something that will make me buy the book. Right now, I can tell you I'm not interested enough to buy it. That may change with the preview.

Because? Each issue of Flashpoint and most surely Justice League #1 will have a preview on USATODAY, why can't Ultimate Spider-Man #1 receive one?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Because you said Miles Morales would be like "2nd" tier or "Teen" hero to DC's "1st tier" or "Adult" tier heroes more or less because he's not Peter Parker. Miles Morales is going to be the star of Ultimate Spider-Man and calling him a supporting character just seems silly.

It's not really silly. The general public doesn't make the distinctions comic fans do. There are no "movieverse's" or "toonverses", it's all one thing. That's why when a non-comic fan sees The Dark Knight they don't say things like "well, ya'see Batman doesn't wear armor like that, and the Joker is perma-white...blah blah blah blah blah". To them it's just a good (or bad) movie featuring Batman and the Joker. Miles Morales will be a Spider-Man knock-off, especially since he has a new suit. He's instantly recognizeable now as "the OTHER Spider-Man", that wouldn't be different if he was white. The sad thing is they've already shown that these publicity stunts and even the films have a negilible effect on sales.

And we can't know what will happen to Miles Morales, the earliest we can tell is when a good amount of time has passed.

Of course not. Miles could be overwhelmingly popular for all I know.

The general public sure has cared about this alternate dimension from what i've seen.

No they haven't, not a single one of my friends could tell you what "Ultimate" Spider-Man is, even though they know there is a Spider-Man. Comic sales are plummeting faster than Spider-Man when he is out of web fluid.

Ultimate Peter Parker is a "Spider-Man" spinoff, but for alot of people it was a new starting point and have kept reading it for 10 years, now theres a new starting point for old and new fans alike.

Sure, except those "new and old" fans are not that numerous, and they really, really want the new, and honestly I don't think this will bring in that many.

Movies and cartoons are also "spinoff Spider-Man" incarnations.

Only to comic fans. Many people I know still think Superheroes come from cartoons and movies, and the comics support them.

Tell that to Bendis, Quesada and Tom Brevoort, not me.

They don't need to be told. In fact they probably wouldn't have announced it if they weren't incredibly afraid this was an overwhelmingly possible outcome. The movie and the new cartoon will make this new Spider-Man have an incredible uphill climb for recognition. I think Bendis would probably have enough pride in his creation that he wouldn't callously kill him off just because he didn't sell, but he can't prevent a book from being cancelled if it doesn't.

This is me being condescending: Comic books cost a lot of money to produce, they really do, especially in the form they are now. If you can't make a profit after spending money producing it, it gets cancelled. No one has any say in this. I manage a company, and that's the way it goes. You don't sell, and no one will waste money on you. Marvel has shareholders, and they ultimately dictate terms. Ultimate Spider-Man has been at the bottom half of the top 20 for a while now (during the build up to his death no less), and ASM has been killing it in sales for each of it's issues (multiple issues a month), so my guess is they want USM to be a top ten book. I would guess they'll be satisfied if it stays about where it's at though. So if this book falls below the top twenty, and stays there for a while, I won't be surprised if A) it gets cancelled B) it switches to minis to try to regain some interest or C) he just becomes a character in Ultimates or something to that effect.

Because? Each issue of Flashpoint and most surely Justice League #1 will have a preview on USATODAY, why can't Ultimate Spider-Man #1 receive one?

That's because publishers are getting desperate.

 

[Drz]

It's not really silly. The general public doesn't make the distinctions comic fans do. There are no "movieverse's" or "toonverses", it's all one thing. That's why when a non-comic fan sees The Dark Knight they don't say things like "well, ya'see Batman doesn't wear armor like that, and the Joker is perma-white...blah blah blah blah blah". To them it's just a good (or bad) movie featuring Batman and the Joker. Miles Morales will be a Spider-Man knock-off, especially since he has a new suit. He's instantly recognizeable now as "the OTHER Spider-Man", that wouldn't be different if he was white. The sad thing is they've already shown that these publicity stunts and even the films have a negilible effect on sales.

But arguebly these very same general audiences don't even care about monthly comics, so... Why are we debating about them? Did they start picking up Batman comics after TDK? Did they start reading Spider-Man or Thor or Iron Man or Captain America after their movies?

Actually lets look at Thor. In March 2011 it was selling about 42k copies per month, then the relaunch on April came and #1 was the best selling title, but by June 2011 by #3 the sales have dropped to 49k copies so these sales pikes are just getting closer and closer to what the titles was selling before general audience cared, so again the question is: Why should we care what the people who see the upcoming Amazing Spider-Man will think?

And hey maybe someday Donald Glover will produce and star on his own Spidey movie!

No they haven't, not a single one of my friends could tell you what "Ultimate" Spider-Man is, even though they know there is a Spider-Man. Comic sales are plummeting faster than Spider-Man when he is out of web fluid.

All the articles have been clear about Ultimate Marvel and the Amazing Spider-Man title, if it's ignorant people being ignorant on the internet, thats nothing new in everything.

Sure, except those "new and old" fans are not that numerous, and they really, really want the new, and honestly I don't think this will bring in that many.

Let's wait and see on that in both monthly sales and trade sales.

Only to comic fans. Many people I know still think Superheroes come from cartoons and movies, and the comics support them.

Just because they think they're right doesn't make them right.

That's because publishers are getting desperate.

So you now agree that Ultimate Spider-Man #1 will receive a mainstream media preview? Shouldn't this be a good thing then? People will see what the character is about not just his skin.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

So you now agree that Ultimate Spider-Man #1 will receive a mainstream media preview

For Marvel though the hype is ENTIRELY about his skin, which is ultimately what has irked me. They haven't as of yet made a case for their content. They need to take a note from Giant Sized X-Men #1 now THERE was a book that understood how to infuse diversity. X-Men was absolutely a W.A.S.P.y book, and it's a shame to me that after about 40 years they're not still using Storm as an X-Men Leader after the cartoon and comic featured her in a leadership role alongside Cyclops in the 90s. There is something to be said for black versions of white characters, but I think this is more successful when people are not as familiar with the secret identity but are vaguely familiar with the character (Green Lantern and Iron Man's War Machine for example). Otherwise I think you ought to create a new character. I'm interested to see what they do, but this is all so far rather cliche'. I think one thing they could've done is waited. Let the dust settle from Parker's death, so when the title was relaunched it didn't seem as though Parker's death was merely a way to usher in a "diversity" character.

Shouldn't this be a good thing then? People will see what the character is about not just his skin.

"People", unless the comic industry has a large KKK demographic, figured this out a long time ago. They do need to do a better job of boosting their minority characters, but this is still using a white character in an attempt to make a black secret identity popular. It, to me, is sort of a mixed message. On the one hand it's launching a minority into an already valued position. On the other hand it's admitting they simply aren't creative enough to come up with a minority character on their own. "People" need to remember most of our beloved characters were not overnight successes. So trying to make a new character into an overnight success with tons of hype isn't going to solve the problem, it's just a band-aid on a broken leg so to speak.

 

[RockSP]

That was SUCH a cool idea and i wanted to see it pan out, but nothing ever became of it

That describes so much of Bendis' mainstream work lol

 

[kguillou]

I still think Peter's coming back. I think they're gonna do about a year's worth of stories with this Miles kid (maybe longer if he becomes popular) and then peter will come back to reclaim the costume in a big "SPIDER-MAN REBORN!!!!!" story.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

That describes so much of Bendis' mainstream work lol

Just remember, just cause you put it on the news doesn't mean you won't end like Ultimate X by Jeph Loeb and Arthur Adams

 

[moraldeficiency]

Right now I don't think marvel is hyping up the whole black/hispanic angle at all. It isn't like they've had a press release that's been like, "there's a new spider-man and he's two, count em two different minorities all rolled into one!". They stated who he is and the rest has been reactions by others about it that need to be answered. I mean you've got glenn beck going on about how obama basically made miles spider-man. Personally I applaud, yes you heard me right applaud, bendis for not making the new spider-man either ultimate luke cage or ultimate jessica jones. He's going with someone completely new which if you're going to make a new spider-man I'd rather have than say peter's clone or such. Unless bendis writes race as a real focal point of the character I have no problem with it and I think reporters have made a far bigger deal about the race issue than marvel.

 

[UltimateJustin]

I still think Peter's coming back. I think they're gonna do about a year's worth of stories with this Miles kid (maybe longer if he becomes popular) and then peter will come back to reclaim the costume in a big "SPIDER-MAN REBORN!!!!!" story.

I actually think it would be a good idea to make MM his own, original superhero down the line. Regardless if PP returns.

 

[The Squirrel]

I'm interested in seeing how Miles' origin will turn out. Hopefully he makes it out with both parents still alive.

 

[Drz]

I'm interested in seeing how Miles' origin will turn out. Hopefully he makes it out with both parents still alive.

Agreed.

Ultimate Fallout #5 preview! Focus: Quicksilver & Nick Fury

Hickman and Spencer building up for their big 1st arcs pretty much.

 

[Venom160]

I still think Peter's coming back. I think they're gonna do about a year's worth of stories with this Miles kid (maybe longer if he becomes popular) and then peter will come back to reclaim the costume in a big "SPIDER-MAN REBORN!!!!!" story.

yep yep. They can spout off as much as they want about keeping Peter and other ult characters dead but than turned around revived GG even after his huge Death of a Goblin arc. I love marvel's double talk ********. As soon as Ult Spidey's sales dip in any way this not Spider-man will be kicked to the curb and the genuine article will be back.

 

[Drz]

 

[chamber-music]

Right now I don't think marvel is hyping up the whole black/hispanic angle at all. It isn't like they've had a press release that's been like, "there's a new spider-man and he's two, count em two different minorities all rolled into one!". They stated who he is and the rest has been reactions by others about it that need to be answered. I mean you've got glenn beck going on about how obama basically made miles spider-man. Personally I applaud, yes you heard me right applaud, bendis for not making the new spider-man either ultimate luke cage or ultimate jessica jones. He's going with someone completely new which if you're going to make a new spider-man I'd rather have than say peter's clone or such. Unless bendis writes race as a real focal point of the character I have no problem with it and I think reporters have made a far bigger deal about the race issue than marvel.

I agree the media and some people who are fans and some people who have never even read a Spider-Man comic book are the ones who have made a big issue about the race of the new ultimate Spider-Man.

I've seen people saying I don't read ultimate Spider-Man but I don't like this character being black/hispanic. If you don't even read the book why even complain it.

Whoever they had take over from Peter Parker would of been made a big deal about regardless of the race.

I do wonder if it was a made up white character would there be such a fuss about it though from some people?

 

[Drz]

Every black character who appears is a "token" who only exists to satisfy a "PC quota."

Every white character who exists is perfectly okay and isn't required to be justified in its existence.

This is how the universe functions.

 

[Roose Bolton]

 

[chamber-music]

Every black character who appears is a "token" who only exists to satisfy a "PC quota."

Every white character who exists is perfectly okay and isn't required to be justified in its existence.

This is how the universe functions.

sadly this seems to be how some people think/feel

 

[moraldeficiency]

I think it's a case of this: If the character's race is a primary component of their character then they are pandering to that PC nonsense. Hudlin's black panther is a primary example of this. If the character's race is only brought up when part of a normal storyline or to further character development then they've got it right (someone like the falcon would fall into that category). The problem is a lot of writers (both black and white) don't seem to be able to write blacks or hispanics without making their race their primary character trait.

 

[RockSP]

I think it's a case of this: If the character's race is a primary component of their character then they are pandering to that PC nonsense. Hudlin's black panther is a primary example of this. If the character's race is only brought up when part of a normal storyline or to further character development then they've got it right (someone like the falcon would fall into that category). The problem is a lot of writers (both black and white) don't seem to be able to write blacks or hispanics without making their race their primary character trait.

The problem with that is the view of "PC nonsense" differs for every individual reader. I for example have no clue what you are talking about with Hudlin's Black Panther. It wasn't a well written book for the most part and made BP's continuity unnecessarily convoluted...that's the problem I had with it.

In the mind's of some readers like DRz said if a black character appears at all it's "pandering". I'll never forget some psycho over on the DC boards was upset when in McDuffie's first issue of JLA John Stewart and Black Lightning had a conversation. According to him the whole talk was about "I'm black. You're black." Nevermind the reality that race had absolutely nothing to do with what they said.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm interested in seeing how Miles' origin will turn out. Hopefully he makes it out with both parents still alive.

Yes, and a sibling preferably. The funny thing to me is really the biggest thing that makes heroes hard to relate to sometimes is how they usually have dead parents.

 

[terry78]

Yes, and a sibling preferably. The funny thing to me is really the biggest thing that makes heroes hard to relate to sometimes is how they usually have dead parents.

That's what turns them into heroes I guess. If everything is going too swimmingly for you, no need to attempt to make the world better.

 

[moraldeficiency]

The problem with that is the view of "PC nonsense" differs for every individual reader. I for example have no clue what you are talking about with Hudlin's Black Panther. It wasn't a well written book for the most part and made BP's continuity unnecessarily convoluted...that's the problem I had with it.

In the mind's of some readers like DRz said if a black character appears at all it's "pandering". I'll never forget some psycho over on the DC boards was upset when in McDuffie's first issue of JLA John Stewart and Black Lightning had a conversation. According to him the whole talk was about "I'm black. You're black." Nevermind the reality that race had absolutely nothing to do with what they said.

Well yeah, everything is subjective. But let's see my problem with that...

There was consistent talk about race either in terms or eugenitics or just how black people or white people are apparently.

During the skrull thing there were oppressed skrulls and oppressor skrulls. The oppressed skrulls were all black the oppressors were all white.

BP has the cure for cancer but won't help others because they don't give him enough respect. (this doesn't have anything to do with race, just shows what a dick he is)

The storm marriage. (where the hell did that come from? There was no reason at all other than to team the biggest black superherione with BP. They just jammed some retcon in and ran with it. This also continues the idea that if you're native american you'll never get anything decent in marvel)

Most of his interactions with allied heroes were with blacks most of the time he was around any white hero he fought them. He doesn't care about civil war till a black hero gets killed.

And finally there's the inherit problem with the character. He's a king. He's literally born better than others. Everyone in his kingdom has to take the knee. As a mick I hate royality, I believe all people are born equally and to kneel to some *****e cause he won the birth lottery and assume they must be better? That's basically slavery right there.

Also he's a crappy writer. Also when aaron mcgruder (who actually does address race intelligently, though I don't agree with everything he says) calls him a *****e that's helping destroy black people from within by promoting crap stereotypes, I'm gonna side with mcgruder (I miss the boondocks).

If you're curious what black characters I do like. John Stewart is my favorite green lantern. Hal's a *****e and kyle just never did much for me. But my favorite black character in the MU is Prowler. He's like a far better version of BP that actually has a character and isn't a dick 24/7.

Now I will agree it is all subjective, where I see striking and obvious racial pandering of the most base and stupid manner you might just see a very bad story. On that point we definitely agree, he is a crap writer.

But back on point I support bendis' decision on this to actually have a new spider-man that's new and I don't think marvel is making a big deal about it, more that they're reacting to everyone else making a big deal about this. This isn't pandering unless every issue miles has to explain what being black in america means to him.