Venom now has a stand alone film, according to the studio.

[Juicy J]

If Spider-Man is neither aiding the villains nor fighting them, what is he supposed to be doing all film?

He's obviously going to be fighting them, and he's obviously going to win. Making him an antagonist isn't dumb at all.
I just think you're being narrow minded, I see no reason that can't work.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The majority of people aren't going to follow a bunch of villain protagonists fighting a superhero antagonist. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

The only way this will possibly work is if the Sinister 6/Venom are fighting someone even worse, and therefore the audiences sympathy lies with them. In Oscar bait you can get away with a villain protagonist, not in a summer blockbuster. People want to follow someone they can cheer for in their escapist entertainment. There is a very good reason Steven Spielberg didn't film Indiana Jones from the point of view of the Nazis.

 

[roach]

The majority of people aren't going to follow a bunch of villain protagonists fighting a superhero antagonist. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

The only way this will possibly work is if the Sinister 6/Venom are fighting someone even worse, and therefore the audiences sympathy lies with them. In Oscar bait you can get away with a villain protagonist, not in a summer blockbuster. People want to follow someone they can cheer for in their escapist entertainment. There is a very good reason Steven Spielberg didn't film Indiana Jones from the point of view of the Nazis.

it's really never been done before so I don't think we can say for sure that it won't work.

 

[cherokeesam]

The majority of people aren't going to follow a bunch of villain protagonists fighting a superhero antagonist. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

The only way this will possibly work is if the Sinister 6/Venom are fighting someone even worse, and therefore the audiences sympathy lies with them. In Oscar bait you can get away with a villain protagonist, not in a summer blockbuster. People want to follow someone they can cheer for in their escapist entertainment. There is a very good reason Steven Spielberg didn't film Indiana Jones from the point of view of the Nazis.

Who was more popular in the Austin Powers movies, Austin or Dr. Evil? They spent as much time in the villain's lair as they did following the hero, and audiences ate it up. Look at Hannibal Lecter. Look at Groo from Despicable Me. Most mob movies, including GoodFellas, The Godfather, and Casino. Res Dogs, Natural Born Killers, Maleficent, The Usual Suspects, A Clockwork Orange, Ocean's, The Devil's Rejects, The Vampire Lestat, American Psycho, or just plain Psycho. Most of critically-acclaimed TV nowadays is told from the POV of the villain(s) --- Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy, Boardwalk Empire, Deadwood, The Borgias, Hannibal, Dexter......

I don't think a movie about supervillains would have any trouble finding an audience at all.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

The majority of people aren't going to follow a bunch of villain protagonists fighting a superhero antagonist. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

The only way this will possibly work is if the Sinister 6/Venom are fighting someone even worse, and therefore the audiences sympathy lies with them. In Oscar bait you can get away with a villain protagonist, not in a summer blockbuster. People want to follow someone they can cheer for in their escapist entertainment. There is a very good reason Steven Spielberg didn't film Indiana Jones from the point of view of the Nazis.

Really? You're using Godwin's Law for this. Using Nazi's, real life villains that would never sell well for more reason than what you've mentioned, is arguable the worst example you could use.

Other than that, I agree for the most part. The only way you could do that is if their intentions are more nobler than the superhero and with Spider-Man, that would never happen. I think it would most likely be another antagonist and not Spider-Man.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Who was more popular in the Austin Powers movies, Austin or Dr. Evil? They spent as much time in the villain's lair as they did following the hero, and audiences ate it up. Look at Hannibal Lecter. Look at Groo from Despicable Me. Most mob movies, including GoodFellas, The Godfather, and Casino. Res Dogs, Natural Born Killers, Maleficent, The Usual Suspects, A Clockwork Orange, Ocean's, The Devil's Rejects, The Vampire Lestat, American Psycho, or just plain Psycho. Most of critically-acclaimed TV nowadays is told from the POV of the villain(s) --- Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy, Boardwalk Empire, Deadwood, The Borgias, Hannibal, Dexter......

I don't think a movie about supervillains would have any trouble finding an audience at all.

None of those are big summer blockbuster action films.

And many of those are poor examples anyways. The mob films almost all feature antagonists that are worse than the protagonists, Bates is not the protagonist in Psycho, Dr. Lector is in Silence of the Lambs (the one good Hannibal film) for like 15 minutes, the thieves in films like The Usual Suspects (except Soze, and even then the main protagonist is Keaton) and Ocean's 11 are not villains, Austin Powers is still the protagonist plus it is a comedy so the same rules don't really apply, etc.

Really? You're using Godwin's Law for this. Using Nazi's, real life villains that would never sell well for more reason than what you've mentioned, is arguable the worst example you could use.

Fair enough. Let's say George Lucas didn't film Star Wars from the point of view of The Empire or Terrence Young didn't film James Bond from the point of view of SPECTRE.

 

[DrCosmic]

The problem I see with a Sinister Six story is, who exactly would be the antagonist? You can't really use Spider-man for the reasons already stated. You can't really have the antagonist be "the law", since without superhero-level opposition, the Sinister Six would kind of invincibly stomp all over the authorities ( barring "Sinister Six vs the Army", which wouldn't exactly make for a good story either ). And Sony doesn't exactly have an abundance of villains who'd make good "badder bads" for them to fight.

They have two badder bads: Norman Osborn and Kingpin

They also have a slew of lesser heroes to be hero antagonists. And if you start the Sinister Six out behind the eight ball, the local authorities can also be a problem.

The good guys didn't win in Watchmen or Empire Strikes Back. It's not common but there are movies where it happens

Most of those movies are middle films of trilogies. We've seen the good guys win, and will again. Downer endings for a story don't do well, especially in a big film.

I'm quick to shoot it down because these are clear villainous characters and you won't get enough people to sit down and watch evil characters for two hours to justify a $200 million+ budget. Or you make them good guys and end up ruining them as villains in the process.

I just can't see this working, and I think the studio will realize that.

Except... it already has worked, many times. Spider-Man's villains as protagonists is an explored and largely successful proposition. Further, when we talk about Spider-Man's movie villains... these people are hardly the hang wringing MWAHAHA sort. Most of them, even in the Raimi trilogy are largely altruistic or at least incredibly sympathetic in their criminality. They're not any less likeable or sympathetic than Ocean's 11. More expensive, sure, but they're not necessarily in a different league of villainy.

Oh no, everyone's lizards, it's UNFORGIVABLE.
Oh no, he turned out the power, he's a HEARTLESS KILLER

No... they're sympathetic criminals. As protagonists they're even more so.

The majority of people aren't going to follow a bunch of villain protagonists fighting a superhero antagonist. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

The only way this will possibly work is if the Sinister 6/Venom are fighting someone even worse, and therefore the audiences sympathy lies with them. In Oscar bait you can get away with a villain protagonist, not in a summer blockbuster. People want to follow someone they can cheer for in their escapist entertainment. There is a very good reason Steven Spielberg didn't film Indiana Jones from the point of view of the Nazis.

Yes, a bigger villain is the obvious choice (see Ocean's 11), but pleasenot the majority will also root for the criminals if the superhero is an immense *****ebag.

I'm not sure why you draw such a big distinction between villain and criminal. The only difference is sympathy and perspective.

 

[I'm Venom]

I still would love for them to get Jon Bernthal for Eddie Brock/Venom.

Jon Bernthal doesn't fit the bill in my opinion, but I still love the guy.

 

[cherokeesam]

None of those are big summer blockbuster action films.

And many of those are poor examples anyways. The mob films almost all feature antagonists that are worse than the protagonists, Bates is not the protagonist in Psycho, Dr. Lector is in Silence of the Lambs (the one good Hannibal film) for like 15 minutes, the thieves in films like The Usual Suspects (except Soze, and even then the main protagonist is Keaton) and Ocean's 11 are not villains, Austin Powers is still the protagonist plus it is a comedy so the same rules don't really apply, etc.



Fair enough. Let's say George Lucas didn't film Star Wars from the point of view of The Empire or Terrence Young didn't film James Bond from the point of view of SPECTRE.

You might be jumping to conclusions about the "big summer blockbuster" part. Sony hasn't given us release dates for these two films yet, just TASM3; so for all we know, these could be smaller budgeted films slated for the years in between bigger budget Spidey releases.

And Spidey will almost certainly be the antagonist/opposition here. The language in the press release points almost unequivocally to that:

"In a move to forge a new legacy in the story of Peter Parker on screen...collaborate on overseeing the developing story over several films...to expand the Spider-Man universe in each of these upcoming films... to develop a continuous tone and thread throughout the films...
we have the opportunity to grow the franchise by looking to the future as we develop a continuous arc for the story...."

So they're saying outright that Venom and S6 will be part of a continuous story arc in the Spidey franchise.

And Deadline has a pretty spot-on read on why they're doing it this way:

It eases Sony’s burden of providing direct Spidey sequels, and follows Fox’s move to diversify its X-Men universe in the same way. This protects billion dollar franchises from reverting back to Marvel, and rival studio Disney.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

You might be jumping to conclusions about the "big summer blockbuster" part. Sony hasn't given us release dates for these two films yet, just TASM3; so for all we know, these could be smaller budgeted films slated for the years in between bigger budget Spidey releases.

The powers these characters have require expensive special effects.

 

[cherokeesam]

The powers these characters have require expensive special effects.

Which characters? We still have no idea who'll actually make up the Sinister Six; just guesses.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

The closest we've gotten to a villain protagonist in CBMs is Magneto in X-Men: First Class, and he got balanced out by Xavier and the fact that he wasn't completely a villain yet.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Which characters? We still have no idea who'll actually make up the Sinister Six; just guesses.

Venom has been announced too.

As for Sinister Six, Doc Ock needs to be involved. The Sinister Six without Ock is like the Justice League without Superman. And most of the other usual suspects to round out the team are effects heavy as well.

Unless the Sinister Six is going to be featuring something along the likes of Hammerhead and the Enforcers (and nobody wants to see that), it is going to get pricey.

 

[cherokeesam]

Venom has been announced too.

As for Sinister Six, Doc Ock needs to be involved. The Sinister Six without Ock is like the Justice League without Superman. And most of the other usual suspects to round out the team are effects heavy as well.

Unless the Sinister Six is going to be featuring something along the likes of Hammerhead and the Enforcers (and nobody wants to see that), it is going to get pricey.

Granted. And good symbiote fx should be pricey as well.
But it's still clear that Spidey will be involved in those movies, and that it's one continuous story arc. You could think of Venom and S6 as TASM 2.5 and 3.5 (or wherever they fall in the continuity).

 

[thejon93]

It's nice to see that Sony's mixing it up with these Spider-Man films. I think that a Venom film is a fantastic idea, but I'm not so sure about a Sinister Six film (though I'm sure it'll be great too, as it's nice to cheer for the villains for a change, remember that rogue's gallery poker game episode from Batman: TAS? Imagine something like that for the Sinister Six film).

 

[metaphysician]

The closest we've gotten to a villain protagonist in CBMs is Magneto in X-Men: First Class, and he got balanced out by Xavier and the fact that he wasn't completely a villain yet.

And Magneto, unlike the Sinister Six, has credible anti-heroic story options.

 

[DrCosmic]

And Magneto, unlike the Sinister Six, has credible anti-heroic story options.

Wait... what?

The S6 are anti heroes (or at least anti-villains) in comics right now, though. Their leader is a critically and commercially successful headlining anti-hero to boot. He's not the first member of the S6 to out-Spidey Spidey either. The movies make almost all of Spider-Man's villains scarcely villains at all, but good guys with out of control powers or extenuating circumstances. And that's when they're the antagonists! There's a pretty impressive list of credible anti-heroic story options, from emotionally motivated jailbreaks, to heists for sympathetic reasons, to revenge on Osborn, to replacing Spider-Man, to infighting amongst criminal motivations/factions. Combining some of these could be golden for someone who can write just some of the characters walking the line. I mean no one has it like Magneto, but you don't have to be the number one flip flopper ever in order to have credible options.

 

[I'm Venom]

I hope this ultimately gets Carnage on the big screen.

 

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, I can't imagine Venom battling anyone other than Carnage, honestly.

 

[I'm Venom]

Carnage would be fantastic, but could backfire as well. He's literally the T-1000 of symbiotes. Show that Venom while ferocious isn't anything like Carnage and would like nothing more than to take him down.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I dont think Spidey has to show up in a Venom movie, Carnage could be the villain, have them always at odds, like they are in the comics, and showing how different they despite being from the same race. Could be very interesting.

Sinister 6 needs Spidey in though IMO.

 

[Loki882]

I still want a Black Cat movie, that's by dream spinoff. If they go the Ultimate Comics route and make the symbiote a product of Oscorp rather than a straight alien (which is extremely possible) how should they introduce Carnage?

 

[I'm Venom]

Obviously Venom would be an entire movie then the after credits scene of that will introduce Carnage and the destruction of underwear for many fanboys.

 

[DrCosmic]

If Carnage isn't the main villain in Venom's first film, who would be?

And S6 doesn't need Spider-Man. On the contrary, putting Spider-Man in an S6 movie would make it worse for that and the next Spider-Man movie.

 

[Dasher10]

So if it's a team of Doc Ock, Shocker, Mysterio, Hobgoblin, Mach and Scorpion stealing money from Kingpin and his henchmen Hammerhead and Tombstone along with other random goons, then after finally defeating Kingpin Spider-Man shows up and captures the Sinister Six, I'd love that.

It even works as a Five Man Band

The Hero: Doc Ock (gets a new Sinister Six together after Spider-Man defeated the originals in TASM3 with the exception of Ock.)
The Lancer: Shocker (A professional thief who's strictly business and is the realist of the group.)
The Big Guy: Scorpion (He was designed as a better version of Spider-Man. He failed but has all of Spidey's powers. He works as the muscle who can go toe to toe with Kingpin's enforcers.)
The Smart Guy: Mach (Abe Jenkins upgrades everyone else's weaponry and built his own suit from the ground up.)
The Heart: Hobgoblin (He's the rich financier of the group and the main reason why Mach is able to acquire the materials he needs. He also mediates between Ock and Shocker.)
Sixth Ranger: Mysterio (He's mostly a loner and gets a group of professional thieves to feel uncomfortable around him. He doesn't speak much but when he does, it's incredibly important. He has a love of the theatrical when on the job but is incredibly reserved and stoic when he's not stealing things.)

This lineup is perfect. As far as motivations go, Doc Ock wants to regain his former glory after Peter Parker defeated him. He's now a fugitive forced into a life of crime. Shocker is just an ex-con who wants to perform a get rich quick scheme. Scorpion is out for revenge after Jameson brought him to Oscorp to empower him enough to rival Spider-Man. Naturally Oscorp ordered him to kill Spider-Man and claimed that he was now their property. He failed, Oscorp discarded him and he's now homeless and on the run from the law. Mach is an insufferable genius who turned to crime so he could be his own employer. Hobgoblin stole the Goblin formula along with Harry Osborn's gear and molded himself into a supervillain by night. Mysterio is a former special effects artist who used to work on Broadway but now uses his love for all things explosive to enrich himself. They all have to work together as a team despite not trusting each other in the least.

Kingpin on the other hand, would be much more of a threat than the Sinister Six and somebody whom the audience will truly root against. He's not meant to be likable or sympathetic at all. Spider-Man himself would only appear in Scorpion's flashbacks and later in the third act after the Six have already won.