Were the deaths in X3 really so awful?

[TKing]

You know that.

 

[X-Maniac]

The most consistent thing about Rogue in any medium is that she's a tough chick. Movie Rogue is a *****.

There is potential to toughen her up in the movies. I've done just that in my own X4 story, taking her in some new directions.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

There is potential to toughen her up in the movies. I've done just that in my own X4 story, taking her in some new directions.

Well, I'm not sure if you'll agree with me or not, but I felt X2 Rogue was far from being a weak crying mutant. She seemed to slowly gain confidence in her abilities as the story progressed.

It's a shame really because I really liked how Rogue evolved in X2 and was shocked to see how she reverted back to X1 Rogue in X3.

 

[Seen]

I'm still slightly mystified at some of the extreme reaction to the deaths and character fates in X3.

The teaser trailer features Xavier's voiceover which clearly states 'great sacrifices will be made' as a flower is laid on a gravestone at a funeral, and the movie is called The Last Stand - which means a decisive battle with no going back...

So, armed with all that information, why were people so angry about the deaths of Jean, Cyclops and Xavier and the curing of Mystique? We knew there would be sacrifices and a funeral (not to mention the leaked script told us even more)

I can understand the concerns over Rogue taking the cure, and I share them to a great extent, though her situation is debatable. I can even understand, and empathise with, the outcry over the removal of Cyclops.

But why the outcry over the others? Did people expect a 'happy ever after' ending from a movie promising sacrifices, a funeral and a last stand?

Discuss....

Weren't you telling others not to discuss old topics and issues that have been discussed to death, like this one?

Or you just don't want people talking and discussing about the faults of the movie?

You should pick one, and stick with it.

 

[the a1ant]

The only death that sucked was Cyclops, imo, and that was prob due to studio politics. Xavier's was perfect...until the final 'suprise' scene (ugh).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well, I'm not sure if you'll agree with me or not, but I felt X2 Rogue was far from being a weak crying mutant. She seemed to slowly gain confidence in her abilities as the story progressed.

It's a shame really because I really liked how Rogue evolved in X2 and was shocked to see how she reverted back to X1 Rogue in X3.

Agreed 100%, not only was she becoming more confident and stronger in X2, but it was also implied that she would only become stronger in X3.

But it seems that was too complicated for the film-makers so they took the easy way out instead.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I agree with what LastSunrise says about Rogue in X2, completely.

About the deaths, yes, the Xavier death I thought was handled pretty nicely, exactly how it should have been. It's still the best scene of the trilogy for me. His death had an impact on the X-men, and it was shown very nicely on screen.

When it comes to Cyclops, I think everyone else has already stated: shame.

And Jean should have died, and must stay dead. I thought it was the obvious, correct way to go. For the people who think she could be cured, come on, she couldn't. And it was explained 1000 times why.

 

[LexCorp]

There is potential to toughen her up in the movies. I've done just that in my own X4 story, taking her in some new directions.

Alas I will never see you version

 

[britrogue]

The reason I was pissed off with Cyclops' death was because it was a blatant excuse to get him out of the way and replace him with Wolverine. The Phoenix storyline centered around Jean and Cyclops, and they knew it. They just couldn't bear to have one film that didn't have Wolverine as the main focus.

 

[LexCorp]

The reason I was pissed off with Cyclops' death was because it was a blatant excuse to get him out of the way and replace him with Wolverine. The Phoenix storyline centered around Jean and Cyclops, and they knew it. They just couldn't bear to have one film that didn't have Wolverine as the main focus.

Well by X3 the crappy movie fan base for Wolverine had grown and yes they knew he was the selling point of the film.

 

[X-Maniac]

Well, I'm not sure if you'll agree with me or not, but I felt X2 Rogue was far from being a weak crying mutant. She seemed to slowly gain confidence in her abilities as the story progressed.

It's a shame really because I really liked how Rogue evolved in X2 and was shocked to see how she reverted back to X1 Rogue in X3.

I do agree. X2's Rogue kissed Bobby and grinned as she had frosty breath, she stopped Pyro's fire attacks, she looked as though she was going to tackle Magneto on the jet, and she flew the X-jet (rather inexpertly) at the dam.

I'm not sure though how you progress that growing confidence to make her a fully-fledged X-man. She has no fighting skills and doesn't look the sort of person to do physical fighting; and her power requires proximity to a person to be able to touch them.

In the X4 story I have mapped out, she does grow further, as a result of what happened in X3. I factored in X3 rather than ignoring it, and used it as a springboard to evolve her character further. My X4 does develop her character considerably....including her powers.

 

[X-Maniac]

Weren't you telling others not to discuss old topics and issues that have been discussed to death, like this one?

Or you just don't want people talking and discussing about the faults of the movie?

You should pick one, and stick with it.

No need to be so hostile.

As far as I am aware there has never been any thread that discussed the deaths as a whole, and whether any were acceptable.

We're all having a jolly nice time in here at the moment, and it's nice to see civil debate. At least it gives a bit of life to the forum and, rather than being a bashfest, it's looking intelligently at the movies.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I do agree. X2's Rogue kissed Bobby and grinned as she had frosty breath, she stopped Pyro's fire attacks, she looked as though she was going to tackle Magneto on the jet, and she flew the X-jet (rather inexpertly) at the dam.

I'm not sure though how you progress that growing confidence to make her a fully-fledged X-man. She has no fighting skills and doesn't look the sort of person to do physical fighting; and her power requires proximity to a person to be able to touch them.

In the X4 story I have mapped out, she does grow further, as a result of what happened in X3. I factored in X3 rather than ignoring it, and used it as a springboard to evolve her character further. My X4 does develop her character considerably....including her powers.

while i'm not sure i would have wanted to see the movie rogue flying around, throwing boulders and tanks, and punching through sentinels, i think all it would have taken was a little bit of creativity to see her use her powers in combat. perhaps she could be used in different ways than just pure combat, such as sneaking her behind enemy lines, and using her to drain the powers from the villians. i could see her borrowing kitty's powers, and sneaking around behind enemy lines and draining some of the more powerful random mutants and such, putting them in a position to be defeated by colossus, iceman, etc...

or have angel fly her in or something.

it definately could have been done. i understand it could have been potentially corny to have anna paquin's rogue in the middle of a mutant melee or something, but done right, rogue could have easily have proven her worth in battle.

 

[VII7]

IMO cyclops was by far the most overlooked character in the whole x-men film trilogy..when they killed him off i couldnt help but laugh at that and the whole x-men last stand movie. when it got to prof. X getting whacked off i was shocked and disappointed with that movie..after X2 we get this piece of **** called the last stand..what a joke. after prof X died i just got my remote and fast forwarded to the credits.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

while i'm not sure i would have wanted to see the movie rogue flying around, throwing boulders and tanks, and punching through sentinels, i think all it would have taken was a little bit of creativity to see her use her powers in combat. perhaps she could be used in different ways than just pure combat, such as sneaking her behind enemy lines, and using her to drain the powers from the villians. i could see her borrowing kitty's powers, and sneaking around behind enemy lines and draining some of the more powerful random mutants and such, putting them in a position to be defeated by colossus, iceman, etc...

or have angel fly her in or something.

it definately could have been done. i understand it could have been potentially corny to have anna paquin's rogue in the middle of a mutant melee or something, but done right, rogue could have easily have proven her worth in battle.

Agreed 100%, it shocks me sometimes how little imagination some people in Hollywood have, they are getting paid plenty of money to bring these things to life and yet, sadly, often it is with little to know imagination.

In fairness this is mostly the case with Fox CB movies, so i think they are a factor in all of this.

IMO cyclops was by far the most overlooked character in the whole x-men film trilogy..when they killed him off i couldnt help but laugh at that and the whole x-men last stand movie. when it got to prof. X getting whacked off i was shocked and disappointed with that movie..after X2 we get this piece of **** called the last stand..what a joke. after prof X died i just got my remote and fast forwarded to the credits.

For me, when Cyclops dies in X3, the movie ends for me.

 

[X-Maniac]

Agreed 100%, it shocks me sometimes how little imagination some people in Hollywood have, they are getting paid plenty of money to bring these things to life and yet, sadly, often it is with little to know imagination.

In fairness this is mostly the case with Fox CB movies, so i think they are a factor in all of this.



For me, when Cyclops dies in X3, the movie ends for me.

I agree there is often a lack of imagination in Hollywood - otherwise we wouldn't get remakes; or scenes being copied by another movie/series. And I can quite imagination a scenario where Rogue uses her powers --- Colossus fights Juggernaut on Alcatraz, Colossus is knocked out and Juggs goes for the boy, Rogue sneaks up to Colossus and borrows his power, armours herself up and knocks out some mutants including the teleporter (Vanisher), then borrows his power too and teleports around, taking out a few mutants. Then cut to Juggernaut going for Leech and Kitty trying to stop him.

But, on the other hand, Rogue has an emotional role in the X-movies. She represents the feelings one can have over being different, over having a mutation that is not necesarily an advantage. With a cure storyline, she is the obvious choice to have thoughts about taking it. They chose to have character decisions affect main characters, not random characters we don't know. Which is why Jean's destruction is aimed at Cyclops and Xavier and Rogue contemplates (and takes) the cure. They could have shown some random freaky mutant at the school taking the cure, but it wouldn't have the same impact.

From the movieverse point of view, and from a cinematic point of view, it makes sense that she'd consider the cure... although actually taking it did go against the character's growing confidence in X2 and against the notion of Xavier's teachings and the X-Men's beliefs. The fact that they shot an alternative scene with her not taking it shows how divided they were over the issue.

 

[TKing]

The fact that they shot an alternative scene with her not taking it shows how divided they were over the issue.

So why, why did they choose to include the 'cured' scene in the film's release? In the commentary of X3, the writers explain that they feel the best version of this scene is, in fact, the 'uncured' Rogue.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

The fact that they shot an alternative scene with her not taking it shows how divided they were over the issue.

And shows how confused Ratner was in his attempts to make an emotional film...he decided on Rogue being cured, against the desires of several people involved, as a last minute effort to shove some characterization/emotional effects down the throats of viewers. The fact that they actually shot the scene the other way leaves me speechless *throws hands in the air* *shrugs shoulders*

 

[flavio_lebeau]

And shows how confused Ratner was in his attempts to make an emotional film...he decided on Rogue being cured, against the desires of several people involved, as a last minute effort to shove some characterization/emotional effects down the throats of viewers. The fact that they actually shot the scene the other way leaves me speechless *throws hands in the air* *shrugs shoulders*

Indeed, the producers and the writers actually wanted the other ending for Rogue. Lauren, for what I've heard, sounds pretty pissed at Rogue's end on the commentary for the film.

 

[X-Maniac]

I'm surprised myself that they allowed the scene of Rogue being cured to be filmed and used. I would have thought that producers like Laura Shuler-Donner would have exerted their influence over this key point, especially as she makes it clear on the DVD commentary that she does not think Rogue should be cured.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

I know, I think that someone who has been attached to the two previous films would've been given some say over the destiny of a character that she, as producer, had some input in creating and she clearly had a strong opinion on the subject. But whose to say she didn't have any say, it seems, in the end, somehow, FOX gave the director of the film the final say (which doesn't seem like FOX, being cooporative with directors), much to the chagrin of Lauren.

 

[The Batman]

"Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answers?"

 

[Abaddon]

would it mattered a great deal if she didn't take it? we still miss out on how and why she changed her mind.

 

[LexCorp]

I'm surprised myself that they allowed the scene of Rogue being cured to be filmed and used. I would have thought that producers like Laura Shuler-Donner would have exerted their influence over this key point, especially as she makes it clear on the DVD commentary that she does not think Rogue should be cured.

I prefer the deleted scene where she does not cure herself.

 

[MilkmanDan]

would it mattered a great deal if she didn't take it?

I think that would have been a cop-out ending to her sub-plot. Audience may not like that she took the cure, but it makes sense for her to do so. The problem is the Cure was mostly portayed as a cure for being different/member of a discriminated minority, even though that simply doesn't apply to Rogue's situation.