The Dark Knight What are your biggest Dark Knight Fears?

[ultimatefan]

Please get your bi-focals, contacts, etc etc fixed, you could actually see what was happening in MV, Can't say that about BB

I had some trouble at the theater, but on the DVD I could see what was hapeening just fine.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Eh...I think you could've used better examples. The SW OT are still considered great films, no matter what age you're watching them. TPM was just pure kiddy-crap, plain and simple.

You sound like many other people I know. They are also wrong.

The OT are considered great films? By who? Fanboys. Nobody else.

The Academy sure doesn't consider them great films. The ONLY thing that made the OT at all cutting edge was the FX work. That is IT. End of list. The OT is not this great thing that you think it is. It's Flash Gordon disguised thinly with a bunch of rehashed cliches from every film ever made, from Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, and the Wizard of Oz, on up to Lawrence of Arabia and any John Wayne Western, with basic story points lifted from standard European heroic legend as sifted down to basics by Joseph Campbell.

Sure it's got a very good philosophical side about defining good and evil within ourselves, which is applicable whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or, God forbid, Unitarian. That's the best part about the story, and the strongest part, as described by Anakin Skywalker's rise, fall, and redemption.

I love Star Wars and I always have, but they're simply not good films. And that goes for ALL SIX OF THEM.

You think the prequels are any different from the OT? Watch the OT objectively, my friend. The same problems from the prequels exist in the OT: Horrible pacing, an overreliance on weather-related set-pieces and eye-popping special effects, bad dialogue, and yes, one-note acting.

If you think otherwise, you're delusional. But that's okay. Most SW fans are.

EDIT:

And another thing: if you think I'm speaking rectally, I've got some actual empirical evidence to back this up. My boss at work is 50 years old and had never really seen any Star Wars movies. He'd seen parts of the OT on TV or something. Well, he likes to borrow DVDs from me so I loaned him all six of the Star Wars movies to watch in numerical order, 1-6. Guess which one he and his wife liked the best?

EPISODE III: REVENGE OF THE SITH.

You heard me.

He thought TPM was good, he thought AOTC was good with a great finish, and he thought ROTS was "awesome." Then he got to ANH and was LET DOWN. He thought ESB was slow. He thought ROTJ was a decent finish, though, but he really thought ROTS was the best, far and away.

This is from a non-fan, a casual viewer who just likes movies.

 

[Crooklyn]

Dude...what. the. hell.

It's nice to know you're so adament about your OPINION on the SW films, but I'll still have to disagree. I'm not one of those delusional SW fanboys. I'm a fan of the films, simple as that. Didn't even watch the OT completely until last year, so there goes the bias argument.

I could go point by point with you on this, but it would seem pointless. One, it's OT. Second, I can just tell neither of us would budge. So I'll leave it as an "I'll agree to disagree" type of thing.

 

[explode7]

Dont fight it noob its only going to get worse.

 

[Crooklyn]

Prolly been here longer than your ass so don't pull that ******ed n00b-card on me.

 

[explode7]

Dude its a joke no need to be all offensive.

 

[Crooklyn]

Tip of the day: = Joking. Haha. Kidding. Not serious.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Dude...what. the. hell.

Read the Joan Didion quote in my sig. That's why it's there. I LOVE to debate. It's why I'm here. Hell, that's what this place is FOR.

It's nice to know you're so adament about your OPINION on the SW films, but I'll still have to disagree. I'm not one of those delusional SW fanboys. I'm a fan of the films, simple as that. Didn't even watch the OT completely until last year, so there goes the bias argument.

Oh, you're gonna throw the tired old "OPINION" argument at me. There's a reason I always win these debates. I may state my opinion, but I back it up with fact. I tell you what I think, but I also tell you WHY I think it.

Your entire argument was that the OT "are considered great films," while the PT is "kiddie crap." Where's the facts to back it up?

Wait, wait, don't tell me... I know the next line of this song... "I don't need facts, it's my OPINION, lalalalalalalala."

Well, everybody has an opinion but if you can't tell me WHY you have the opinion that you have, then your opinion really doesn't matter.

I could go point by point with you on this, but it would seem pointless. One, it's OT. Second, I can just tell neither of us would budge. So I'll leave it as an "I'll agree to disagree" type of thing.

Oh that's a complete spineless copout. I have no problem agreeing to disagree... just ask The Guard. But just because I accept the fact that you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it. Debating this stuff is more fun than not debating it. If you don't want to defend your opinions in a public forum, why are you here? To pick up chicks?

 

[explode7]

O yeah I forgot to add those smileys it takes too long.

 

[explode7]

Hey its the Sushinator.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Hey its the Sushinator.

Hullo, 'Splodeyhead.

 

[Crooklyn]

Read the Joan Didion quote in my sig. That's why it's there. I LOVE to debate. It's why I'm here. Hell, that's what this place is FOR.

Nothing wrong with debating, not arguing that. It just read like I hit a nerve there and all of a sudden you went off on me. Hence me laughing.

Oh, you're gonna throw the tired old "OPINION" argument at me. There's a reason I always win these debates. I may state my opinion, but I back it up with fact. I tell you what I think, but I also tell you WHY I think it.

Your entire argument was that the OT "are considered great films," while the PT is "kiddie crap." Where's the facts to back it up?

Wait, wait, don't tell me... I know the next line of this song... "I don't need facts, it's my OPINION, lalalalalalalala."

Do you think I'm that ignorant?

The OT are considered great films, why do I say this? Because even to this day, those films are motion picture classics. Look at the other forums, when SW is discussed, OT is always defended with good debates. Add to the fact that everyone still loves the OT, even as adults, and I'd say it's had a long-lasting effect on people, which wouldn't be the case if it was crap. Sh1t I'm pretty sure the AFI included 2 of the SW films into their top 100 films of American cinema. That's quite an honor for something only fanboys supposedly think is good. "Kiddie-crap" doesn't last in cinema. Period.

Oh that's a complete spineless copout. I have no problem agreeing to disagree... just ask The Guard. But just because I accept the fact that you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it. Debating this stuff is more fun than not debating it.

We're free to discuss this in the misc. films forum. As I said earlier, I don't wanna derail this thread of its original purpose.

If you don't want to defend your opinions in a public forum, why are you here? To pick up chicks?

George Lucas definitely raped you as a kid. I just see no reason for all these pointless add-ons of insults, unless he did something terrible to you. I mean goddamn all I said was you could've used a better example. God knows what the hell set your ass off.

 

[explode7]

Can't we all just get along. You see its these kind of things that causes the wars in the world. IF no one says anything then the world will be a better place or would it?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Nothing wrong with debating, not arguing that. It just read like I hit a nerve there and all of a sudden you went off on me. Hence me laughing.

Well, you haven't been here long enough to know, I guess, but I come here pretty much exclusively to debate.

Do you think I'm that ignorant?

In all fairness, most people are.

The OT are considered great films, why do I say this? Because even to this day, those films are motion picture classics. Look at the other forums, when SW is discussed, OT is always defended with good debates. Add to the fact that everyone still loves the OT, even as adults, and I'd say it's had a long-lasting effect on people, which wouldn't be the case if it was crap. Sh1t I'm pretty sure the AFI included 2 of the SW films into their top 100 films of American cinema. That's quite an honor for something only fanboys supposedly think is good. "Kiddie-crap" doesn't last in cinema. Period.

You only used ONE fact here, and that's the AFI. But the AFI chose those films based on whether or not they made a significant contribution to the filmic medium as a whole. The OT did make a significant contribution: in technology. The OT was cutting edge because of the VFX... the model work, the bluescreen effects, use of stop-motion and rotoscoping. There's nothing else very great about those films.

I will say that ESB is better than the other two, primarily because Irv Kirschner is a more original filmmaker than Lucas ever was or ever will be, and because Larry Kasdan is a better writer than Lucas. So ESB may be a much stronger film, but considering Lucas's limited involvement it's hard to allow Empire's strengths to effect my view of the overall franchise. There are many, many ways in which ESB is completely unlike any other Star Wars movie. It's the exception that proves the rule.

We're free to discuss this in the misc. films forum. As I said earlier, I don't wanna derail this thread of its original purpose.

Why? This was a pretty stupid thread until we got a hold of it.

George Lucas definitely raped you as a kid. I just see no reason for all these pointless add-ons of insults, unless he did something terrible to you. I mean goddamn all I said was you could've used a better example. God knows what the hell set your ass off.

What insults? What add-ons? What are you talking about? I rib you a little. Lucas, I like. I like him as a person. His films defined my childhood and I think the Special Editions are superior to the original OT. But they never were great films and never will be. They're just stupid fun.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Can't we all just get along. You see its these kind of things that causes the wars in the world. IF no one says anything then the world will be a better place or would it?

It's simple physics. Without conflicting forces, nothing moves.

Or to put it into simple metaphysics... without conflict, nothing happens.

 

[7Hells]

All of the films are kid flicks. Even Lucas has stated they are kid flicks.

The reason the first three made such a huge splash is because it was the first time in sci-fi cinematic history that a futuristic world was depicted as anything but shiney and beautiful.

There was dirt and ships broke down. Lucas became famous because he refused to be a part of the corporate cinematic movement that was killing cinema. He did what he wanted and he fought for it. And by doing so he revolutionized special effects forever. The movies are considered classic because for the first time in history outer space was depicted in a realistic fashion a chaotic dirty mess.

Lucas is a visionary, there is no denying that, but that doesnt make him a good writer or director and it doesnt make the movies good by default.

And, yes, the entire storyline was ripped off of Joseph Campbells A Hero with a Thousand faces. Which is why audiences fell sympathetic, to the point of empathetic, with the charcters and their struggles.
Hell Lucas and Campbell both state they worked closely forming the characters and storyline.
Campbell has called Lucas his greatest student.

 

[Crooklyn]

Well, you haven't been here long enough to know, I guess, but I come here pretty much exclusively to debate.

No, I'm quite aware of how you are in arguments. Just never really saw you like that unless something was provoked, which I wasn't doing.

In all fairness, most people are.

Oh, well I guess it's alright then.

You only used ONE fact here, and that's the AFI. But the AFI chose those films based on whether or not they made a significant contribution to the filmic medium as a whole. The OT did make a significant contribution: in technology. The OT was cutting edge because of the VFX... the model work, the bluescreen effects, use of stop-motion and rotoscoping. There's nothing else very great about those films.

What about jump-starting the whole sci-fi genre in film? Giving space stories actual credibility, and not the joke they were before? Or perhaps a trilogy that fans and general audiences alike all enjoyed? These aren't exactly things to be overlooked so easily.

Why? This was a pretty stupid thread until we got a hold of it.

Lol, well regardless of how important the thread is, I'm just practicing common courtesy. t:

What insults? What add-ons? What are you talking about? I rib you a little. Lucas, I like. I like him as a person. His films defined my childhood and I think the Special Editions are superior to the original OT. But they never were great films and never will be. They're just stupid fun.

ANH and ESB to me are great films. It defined the genre, paved a whole path for future filmmakers, so I give much respect to those films. If you don't think it's great, I'm certainly not holding you against it. But it seems like you insist on proving otherwise for those that do. Personally, no matter how detailed these "are these films great" debates become, it essentially is a "I like this, how that was done sucks, you have no taste in film, your dick is small, blabla." I find that tedious and unneeded. I got no problem with discussing the film itself, but otherwise it's a circle of hell imo.

 

[explode7]

It's simple physics. Without conflicting forces, nothing moves.

Or to put it into simple metaphysics... without conflict, nothing happens.

Meaning wars are inevitable.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

All of the films are kid flicks. Even Lucas has stated they are kid flicks.

The reason the first three made such a huge splash is because it was the first time in sci-fi cinematic history that a futuristic world was depicted as anything but shiney and beautiful.

There was dirt and ships broke down. Lucas became famous because he refused to be a part of the corporate cinematic movement that was killing cinema. He did what he wanted and he fought for it. And by doing so he revolutionized special effects forever. The movies are considered classic because for the first time in history outer space was depicted in a realistic fashion a chaotic dirty mess.

Lucas is a visionary, there is no denying that, but that doesnt make him a good writer or director and it doesnt make the movies good by default.

And, yes, the entire storyline was ripped off of Joseph Campbells A Hero with a Thousand faces. Which is why audiences fell sympathetic, to the point of empathetic, with the charcters and their struggles.
Hell Lucas and Campbell both state they worked closely forming the characters and storyline.
Campbell has called Lucas his greatest student.

Preach it, sister.

 

[explode7]

I thought it was a he not a she.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

No, I'm quite aware of how you are in arguments. Just never really saw you like that unless something was provoked, which I wasn't doing.

Ahhh. So are you a long-time lurker, or a previous user reborn under a new mantle?

Oh, well I guess it's alright then.

Too right.

What about jump-starting the whole sci-fi genre in film? Giving space stories actual credibility, and not the joke they were before? Or perhaps a trilogy that fans and general audiences alike all enjoyed? These aren't exactly things to be overlooked so easily.

To be fair, critics panned them as a joke. Of course, critics have their finger on the pulse like a first-year med-student with deadened nerve-endings. Although by the same token, just because "fans and general audiences alike" enjoy a movie, that doesn't make it any damn good. Besides, there were no "fans" when ANH came out. Everybody was "general audience." After ANH came out, everybody was a fan. There was no inbetween. So, yes, ANH is easily the most successful movie of all time. Yeah Titanic made more money, but not when you account for inflation. So ANH was popular. I don't dispute that ANH was popular. ANH is one of my favorite movies. It's not a great movie, but I like it. I own three copies of it (original VHS release, '97 SE VHS release, '04 SE DVD release).

But just because the movie is popular doesn't make it great. You like it. That's great, so do I. It's a likeable movie. But it isn't "great" by any stretch.

Also, I never claimed that the films didn't contribute to the filmic medium overall -- in largely technical ways, which is how they gave credibility to SF films -- but let me ask you a question. If Sir Alec Guinness had not been involved, do you think ANH would have had any credibility at all?

Lol, well regardless of how important the thread is, I'm just practicing common courtesy. t:

Common courtesy is overrated. It's another way of lying to each other in order to come off all fuzzy and button-nosed. Well, the hell with it. I've had my ass kissed enough. I prefer honest dialogue.

ANH and ESB to me are great films. It defined the genre, paved a whole path for future filmmakers, so I give much respect to those films. If you don't think it's great, I'm certainly not holding you against it. But it seems like you insist on proving otherwise for those that do. Personally, no matter how detailed these "are these films great" debates become, it essentially is a "I like this, how that was done sucks, you have no taste in film, your dick is small, blabla." I find that tedious and unneeded. I got no problem with discussing the film itself, but otherwise it's a circle of hell imo.

If our debate devolves into that, it will not be my doing. I never use "I like this, how that was done sucks" arguments because they are wafer-thin and have no substance. Don't confuse my bluntness for stupidity. I'm vulgar but I'm thoughtful. If you look beyond the cheap shots I take, there's always a serious point being made. If there isn't, it means I'm playing.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Meaning wars are inevitable.

Yep. And once in a while, even necessary.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I thought it was a he not a she.

7Hells? I believe 7Hells is a she.

 

[explode7]

Wow great perception. You can sense if someone is male or female without seeing thme wow.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Wow great perception. You can sense if someone is male or female without seeing thme wow.

LOL. In this case I am not guessing. A friend of mine called her his "favorite female poster" here at the Hype. And I can see why. I don't know how he knew, but I assume it came up in conversation with her.