The Dark Knight Rises What I've realized about Chris Nolan's Batman...

[Julio Alejandro]

The Penguin was a monster in the movie?

 

[DACrowe]

I'll say this:

I partially agree that Nolan's view is restricted. I think he is taking a finite and direct route that is rooted in reality in the sense that there is only so far you can take it. These are stand alone contemplations on the character in a cinematic world as opposed to maybe the most direct adaptations, but that in itself lends to more faithful renderings of the "serious" aspects fans love.

In short: You can only take this Batman so far. And that is why it is great. Comic books can recycle themselves and move in circles as serialistic entertainment that resets itself and reuses formulas every few years/decades and keeps the book healthy, but there is a sense of stagnation.

Nolan's movies are to the point and a filmic rendering of the character that serves to make a great movie with the character. It isn't bending over backwards to be like a comic book like the Rodreguiez school of thought, nor trying to please everyone like even the most successful mainstream/formulaic superhero movies do (Raimi's excellent Spider-Man movies, Superman 1 and Singer's X-Men movies), rather he is taking the material no different than one would take a novel and making it work in this medium exclusively.

To do that it has to be finite and have an end point and limitations where a comic book has none, especially when writers and artists change. That is why I think TDK is so strong.

 

[CFE]

5 pages and the majority of it all is whine, whine, whine, b*tch, b*tch, b*tch...minus a few well constructed posts like DA Crowe's up there...

CFE

 

[jmc]

I'll say this:

I partially agree that Nolan's view is restricted. I think he is taking a finite and direct route that is rooted in reality in the sense that there is only so far you can take it. These are stand alone contemplations on the character in a cinematic world as opposed to maybe the most direct adaptations, but that in itself lends to more faithful renderings of the "serious" aspects fans love.

In short: You can only take this Batman so far. And that is why it is great. Comic books can recycle themselves and move in circles as serialistic entertainment that resets itself and reuses formulas every few years/decades and keeps the book healthy, but there is a sense of stagnation.

Nolan's movies are to the point and a filmic rendering of the character that serves to make a great movie with the character. It isn't bending over backwards to be like a comic book like the Rodreguiez school of thought, nor trying to please everyone like even the most successful mainstream/formulaic superhero movies do (Raimi's excellent Spider-Man movies, Superman 1 and Singer's X-Men movies), rather he is taking the material no different than one would take a novel and making it work in this medium exclusively.

To do that it has to be finite and have an end point and limitations where a comic book has none, especially when writers and artists change. That is why I think TDK is so strong.

So true, Nolan's making a film, not a comic book, he treats the source material with the same respect as a best selling novel.

 

[TheBat812]

Good job. Did you figure that out by yourself? Hence the genre "comic book movie". My point is Chris Nolan is limiting himself to how much fantasy he puts into these movies, when a lot of the characters that would be pretty great to introduce are pretty fantastic, such as: The Penguin, Man-Bat, Killer Croc, Clayface, Scarface, The Mad Hatter, etc.

The whole point is that he's taking these fantastical characters and grounding them in a relatable reality.

 

[El Payaso]

The Penguin isn't Batman's most interesting foe but he has been one of the most popular over the years.

And thanks to Burton, he become more interesting than his "not the most interesting foe" comic book counterpart.

Burton didn't improve the concept. He changed it so much that it is no longer the same character. There's a difference you know.

Which you fail to recognize in this case.

In comic books the same as in BR, Penguin was a child whose external aspect gave him rejection, bitterness and hunger for revenge and power. And he felt love for birds.

Difference is that in Burton's movie he was not merely fat and big-nosed but a real deformed person which added more motivation (you really turn into a villiain out of being just chubby and big nosed?) and drama (he actually felt non human and alienated). Plus, it allowed him to manipulate people's compasion through that deformity on the media.

Yes. Not a bad character but still the Penguin in name only.

Read above. The character shares the same motivations, but a nose and being fat is not enough to become a villiain called Penguin.

Yes, that undersells the character quite a lot. And the Joker is just a skinny guy in a purple suit...

We can write volumes on Joker's personality. About Penguin... not so much.

The fact that they were "monsters" is not the only reason they were classic characters.

Same with Burton's Penguin.

I'll say it again: a monster does not entail being interesting.

Frankenstein, King Kong, Hunchback of Notre Dame and now Burton's Penguin prove you wrong though.

Sure. But Burton didn't improve the Penguin. He made a monster, labelled him "the Penguin" and placed him in a film that is far removed from being a Batman film and much more like a typical Burton movie.

It's the other way around actually. he planned the movie first and then added the characters.

This wasn't the Penguin.

Yes it was, in name and motivations.

The character can be much more interesting without going to those silly extremes.

For the fourth time, I have never said otherwise.

And once again you have shown that you cannot reply to someone's post without being condescending.

It's not like I was even trying actually.

Now, let's not make this personal.

 

[The Joker]

A baby being raised by Penguins.

He wasn't raised by them. He was found and rescued by them.

He was raised by the Red Triangle circus gang. Don't you remember the scene in the Batcave where Bruce is investigating the past of the Red Triangle Circus, and comes across a Newspaper article listing an aquatic bird boy as part of their circus freaks?

 

[CaptainClown]

By restricting what one is capable of, you are able to get some very very creative takes on traditional characters. I have heard some amazing takes on Poison Ivy and pushing her into a realistic tone. All of them sounded pretty interesting and not taking away from the realism.

 

[scatterax]

i hope nolan doesn't change what he's doing w/ the batman films just so he can use some of the more out there villains. he needs to flesh out this experement, cause this is the only time you'll see batman like this.

 

[The Major]

To do that it has to be finite and have an end point and limitations where a comic book has none, especially when writers and artists change. That is why I think TDK is so strong.

I agree comics do have an edge in going into the fantastic but Batman has plenty of good villains in his rogues gallery that could fit into the Nolan's verse.

Riddler, Bane, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, Black Mask, Harley Quinn, Penguin, Talia and Killer Croc all could be done.

 

[The Major]

He wasn't raised by them. He was found and rescued by them.

How do penguins rescue a person?

 

[The Major]

i hope nolan doesn't change what he's doing w/ the batman films just so he can use some of the more out there villains.

I agree.

he needs to flesh out this experement, cause this is the only time you'll see batman like this.

Not necesarily. If WB wants to continue his universe after Nolan leaves they can. There are plenty of people in Hollywood who are qualified for the job.

 

[CaptainClown]

Dude guys, Batman's rogue gallery is so amazing that they are adaptable to any type of universe. Their versitility is something many of you are not taking into consideration.

 

[the_scream]

And thanks to Burton, he become more interesting than his "not the most interesting foe" comic book counterpart.

In comparison to say the Joker or the Scarecrow. Burton didn't make him more interesting. He made a completely different character.

Which you fail to recognize in this case.

In comic books the same as in BR, Penguin was a child whose external aspect gave him rejection, bitterness and hunger for revenge and power. And he felt love for birds.

Difference is that in Burton's movie he was not merely fat and big-nosed but a real deformed person which added more motivation (you really turn into a villiain out of being just chubby and big nosed?) and drama (he actually felt non human and alienated). Plus, it allowed him to manipulate people's compasion through that deformity on the media.

Payaso;15621932]Read above. The character shares the same motivations, but a nose and being fat is not enough to become a villiain called Penguin.

Burton exaggerated the character by turning a man into a monster. The Penguin was never supposed to be a monster. Period.

We can write volumes on Joker's personality. About Penguin... not so much. Same with Burton's Penguin.

Burton turned the Penguin into a hideous, deformed, freak that bleeds and spits black blood. There was nothing particularly deep about the character and he ceased to be interesting after the first few scenes. I would like to see the Penguin actually adapted to the big screen to see how much more interesting he could be without the restraints placed on Devito to act like a one-note monster throughout.

Frankenstein, King Kong, Hunchback of Notre Dame and now Burton's Penguin prove you wrong though.

That doesn't make any sense. You fail to understand.

Simply being a monster does not mean the character will be interesting. If so, all monsters in every story would be interesting. There has to be something more to the character. I agree that all those monsters above are interesting (the Penguin less so) but there was more to a classic character like Frankenstein's monster than just the fact that he was a monster.

It's the other way around actually. he planned the movie first and then added the characters.

Ok. But you again missed what I was saying.

Yes it was, in name and motivations.

The Penguin from the comics wanted to drown all of Gotham's first borns?

It's not like I was even trying actually.

Now, let's not make this personal.

I wasn't. You were.

 

[Julio Alejandro]

Burton made a not-so-major villain major...even though I do think Nolan could too.

 

[scatterax]

I agree.



Not necesarily. If WB wants to continue his universe after Nolan leaves they can. There are plenty of people in Hollywood who are qualified for the job.

ya, but i get the feeling whoever they hire next whould do something completely different. kinda like how they hired nolan for his different interpretation than what they had seen b4.

+, he'll always be in the same universe as superman in the comics.

 

[Bishop]

How do penguins rescue a person?

exactly.

 

[The Major]

ya, but i get the feeling whoever they hire next whould do something completely different.

What's this feeling based on?

kinda like how they hired nolan for his different interpretation than what they had seen b4.

They hired Nolan because they needed somebody to reboot the franchise from scratch since WB and Schumacher destroyed the previous version.

+, he'll always be in the same universe as superman in the comics.

What's this got to do with anything?

 

[Julio Alejandro]

Huh?

 

[scatterax]

What's this feeling based on?



They hired Nolan because they needed somebody to reboot the franchise from scratch since WB and Schumacher destroyed the previous version.



What's this got to do with anything?

based on them wanting some1 original and not just a nolan copy cat. and the fact that i feel like this current film franchise should end when nolan stops making the movies.

and the superman things cuz in the comics, thers always gonna be people w/ super powers, and it's never gonna be as reallistic as the movies because of it.

did i 4get anything?

 

[scatterax]

exactly.

i never thought of that b4. lol

 

[Doc Samson]

The only reason Batman has so many great movies, tv shows and video-games is purely because WB wishes to give his franchise the opportunity to do so.

How do you expect WW, Flash, GL, Birds of Prey and numerous others with just as interesting franchise to compete when they aren't given equal treatment in quality of their products? They all have amazing potential, they just lack WB's willingness to use it..

I dont agree with that all, name me 20 classic stories that helped define and shape comicbook storytelling from anyother DC character besides Batman? Batman's had the best stories because the character lends itself to a bunch of different interpretations. There's really only one way to do Superman or Wonderwoman or Flash or GL, anytime they deviate it really never works. Batman isn't as stringent, and he has the greatest villains hands down, ultimately, the hero can only be as good as what he's up against, this is where Batman trumps everyone else, easily

Watchmen is the comic industry's holy grail and it has no high profile characters in it.

Watchmen & The Dark Knight Returns, both released around the same time helped to usher in new storytelling, it was never just Watchmen alone. I would also point out that Watchmen is just one contained story, TDKR is just one of at least 15 great Batman stories that almost anyone would consider classic or influential

That was due to several factors not just that Batman was in it.

It had an all-star cast, a franchise which WB has continuously pumped into the public's consciousness with good products in multiple high profile media for generations, the death of a critically acclaimed actor who played an iconic character, an excellent story that is brilliantly executed, a critically acclaimed director who fits the franchise perfectly, its a sequel to a critically acclaimed film that made the film franchise viable again, the return of a villain just as famous as Batman the only villain WB has done this with is Luthor they've done a poor job most other villains from other franchises though it has gotten better with JLU, WB has actual faith in Batman etc.

Most comic franchises DC has don't have half this.

Of course it was due to alot of that, but Heath Ledger wouldn't have been involved if not for the quality of BB, Nolan wouldn't have done BB if not for the quality of the books he was influenced by. Let's not forget Batman '89 had almost none of what you mentioned, and for its time, was just as huge. Even Adam West's interpretation was classic for its time period as well. It's not that WB does a poor job with its other characters, its other characters just aren't as strong as Batman is, that's really all there is to it.

Which comes down to quality. It wasn't good just for Batman in it. Batman can't do **** unless people make him do it.

WB needs to give this type of quality cartoons to other franchises like Flash, WW, GL etc. That would help their image in the public immensely, get their franchises more credibility and the public will learn more about what their unique mythos.

Of course it comes down to quality, and Batman can't do **** unless people make him do it. The problem is, most of the greatest artists and writers in comic history, for some reason, seem to come up with classic stories for Batman and noone else. It's because of the richness of the character. You change too many things or add to much darkness to Superman or WW or GL or Flash and it does. not. work. This didn't just happen, like I said, Batman has had the best of everything in almost all media forever, its because of who he is, his motivations, the fact that he has no powers and he's relatable, the fact that people can see within him things in themselves. Anyone who's ever lost somebody close to them can identify with the emotions that drive Batman to do what he does, IMO, thats what keeps him so strong and fresh after all these years, you can't get that from any other hero

The only difference with Batman and the rest is that few have a Nolan to do that for them in film.

But why is that? All Nolan really did was return the character to his roots, using what was always there in the comics that Burton & Schumacher didn't bother to read. Nolan wouldn't be able to have any of this success if it weren't for the classic stories that are littered throughout Batman's catalogue. His Joker is for all intents and purposes a mix of The Killing Joke & his first two appearances. If he were permawhite, it would've been almost exact. Nolan was just smart enough to use what was there, where others didn't

 

[Julio Alejandro]

based on them wanting some1 original and not just a nolan copy cat. and the fact that i feel like this current film franchise should end when nolan stops making the movies.

and the superman things cuz in the comics, thers always gonna be people w/ super powers, and it's never gonna be as reallistic as the movies because of it.

did i 4get anything?

So, after Stan Lee & Steve Ditko left The Amazing Spider-Man, they should've just ended that too, right? C'mon now, I think 3 and out and passing it on to another director is a great idea. Keep the franchise going.

 

[The Major]

based on them wanting some1 original and not just a nolan copy cat.

They can follow Nolan's trilogy without being a copycat. Many directors in Hollywood have similar styles while still remaining unique.

They can use it as a foundation to build stories from.

and the fact that i feel like this current film franchise should end when nolan stops making the movies.

I believe they should keep going with Nolan's universe after he leaves, but my opinion doesn't mean they're going to do it. Neither does yours until you can back it up with a credible source.

and the superman things cuz in the comics, thers always gonna be people w/ super powers, and it's never gonna be as reallistic as the movies because of it.

did i 4get anything?

True, but they can be realistic if they are properly executed.

 

[scatterax]

well, i agree that batman has the best dc villains. personally i've alway liked spidey's a tad more. but that's a different story for a different day.