BvS What kind of humor would you like to see in Man of Steel 2/Batman & Superman?

[Flint Marko]

yeah.... that's actually exactly what i want. certain characters can be less serious, but no over the top humor like the Marvel Universe. That's the worst part of some of their movies. It works in some movies, but when it doesn't work, it really doesn't work. Sometimes they try too hard to be funny, half of them are as much comedies as they are action movies.

There will be jokes in these movies. But i think that NO JOKES report was onto something. I think the subtler humor and the darker tone will really differentiate DC from Marvel.

That isn't a thing to want. I mentioned having a dark tone only for the sake of having a dark tone; you understand that isn't a good thing, right?
It's a movie about people dressing up in colorful costumes and beating up other people in colorful costumes. "Over the top" is basically a given. I understand that these sort of stories can be used to address serious issues, but it has to be in the right context. It worked beautifully for Nolan's series because that fit with the character and the story they were trying to tell. Not so much Man of Steel; to me it seemed dark and humorless in an attempt to seem serious and self-important, with little to no substance behind it. I've belabored this point over and over, but the story they were telling didn't really justify that approach, at least not the way they executed it. If this next movie is going to be handled in the same manner, that's a problem.
The worst part of Nolan's legacy is that now people come into certain movies with this idea that if it is "darker" (and I'm really starting to hate that word, honestly), then automatically that makes the film innately deep, thematic, and meaningful when that simply is not true. Different approaches are appropriate for different movies; could BvS be more serious, and still be a great movie? Absolutely. However I'm inclined to think that won't exactly happen.

 

[Rorschach2012]

That isn't a thing to want. I mentioned having a dark tone only for the sake of having a dark tone; you understand that isn't a good thing, right?
It's a movie about people dressing up in colorful costumes and beating up other people in colorful costumes. "Over the top" is basically a given. I understand that these sort of stories can be used to address serious issues, but it has to be in the right context. It worked beautifully for Nolan's series because that fit with the character and the story they were trying to tell. Not so much Man of Steel; to me it seemed dark and humorless in an attempt to seem serious and self-important, with little to no substance behind it. I've belabored this point over and over, but the story they were telling didn't really justify that approach, at least not the way they executed it. If this next movie is going to be handled in the same manner, that's a problem.
The worst part of Nolan's legacy is that now people come into certain movies with this idea that if it is "darker" (and I'm really starting to hate that word, honestly), then automatically that makes the film innately deep, thematic, and meaningful when that simply is not true. Different approaches are appropriate for different movies; could BvS be more serious, and still be a great movie? Absolutely. However I'm inclined to think that won't exactly happen.

I think it's just a difference in opinion. You clearly love the MCU. I'm not in love with it. I think it works well and doesn't work at all sometimes. But I'm not in love with it. Their approach to humor doesn't work for me. The approach in TDKT and MOS should be the same approach to humor going forward imo. MOS had a good amount of humor, it's just that the jokes didn't always work.

Marvel may have some good jokes in their movies, but overall there is too much humor and lightheartedness. DC should have moments of humor and levity, but Marvel completely overdoes both to the point where almost all their villains are non threatening and a joke, and some of their movies border on comedy. I feel this way, you feel another way. We won't get anywhere going back and forth. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. Both opinions are valid.

 

[InJustice]

I still don't understand why so many people had such a problem with the truck scene. The trucker was a crude, misogynistic pig who, if I were to venture a guess, has probably sexually assaulted a woman or two in his time, or come close. People seem to have an issue with Superman destroying that a**hole's property and felt he should have apologized to him. Why? Was it out of character for Superman? Ahem...

And these same people had no issues with Clark beating the everliving turd out of the bully in Superman 2.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think it's just a difference in opinion. You clearly love the MCU. I'm not in love with it. I think it works well and doesn't work at all sometimes. But I'm not in love with it. Their approach to humor doesn't work for me. The approach in TDKT and MOS should be the same approach to humor going forward imo. MOS had a good amount of humor, it's just that the jokes didn't always work.

Marvel may have some good jokes in their movies, but overall there is too much humor and lightheartedness. DC should have moments of humor and levity, but Marvel completely overdoes both to the point where almost all their villains are non threatening and a joke, and some of their movies border on comedy. I feel this way, you feel another way. We won't get anywhere going back and forth. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. Both opinions are valid.

I was strictly talking about how WB is handling their upcoming film properties. I'm an outspoken fan of the MCU, but that has no bearing on my feelings towards DC movies. I didn't even bring up Marvel, you did. You're deflecting the discussion; the topic at hand was my idea that some think having a more "serious, gritty" approach will automatically elevate the quality of the movie when in fact that idea is wrongheaded and demonstrably untrue. The tone of a film should be decided by the characters and the story, not by a studio mandate or a film makers desire to emulate someone else's style.
And MoS didn't have a good amount of humor, I don't agree with you on that.

 

[m3rcer]

And these same people had no issues with Clark beating the everliving turd out of the bully in Superman 2.

Wait a sec. Do you mean the bully in the diner?

Superman/Clark was nice enough to provide him with a meal to go, and even a round of pinball. t:

 

[Rorschach2012]

I was strictly talking about how WB is handling their upcoming film properties. I'm an outspoken fan of the MCU, but that has no bearing on my feelings towards DC movies. I didn't even bring up Marvel, you did. You're deflecting the discussion; the topic at hand was my idea that some think having a more "serious, gritty" approach will automatically elevate the quality of the movie when in fact that idea is wrongheaded and demonstrably untrue. The tone of a film should be decided by the characters and the story, not by a studio mandate or a film makers desire to emulate someone else's style.
And MoS didn't have a good amount of humor, I don't agree with you on that.

In general these characters work better with a serious gritty approach, so approaching them the way they should be approached does inherently make them better. Shazam is the only exception of the upcoming roster. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Sandman, JL and BvS would all benefit from a serious gritty approach.

Since we're on the topic of humor in the DCU, obviously Marvel, (the kings of the superhero-comedy genre) is going to come up. Bottom line is that the generally more family-oriented tone and humor that can be found in the MCU should be absent from these movies. A similar tone to TDKT tone with less realism and MOS tone works fine going forward.

Marvel has too much comedy, MOS and TDKT, X-Men 1, 2, First Class, and Days of Future Past have the right amount of subtle comedy.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

And these same people had no issues with Clark beating the everliving turd out of the bully in Superman 2.

If that was a new truck he equated a beer in his face to like a $100,000 asset and there may have been property damage to those that employed him


With all that said, it got a huge laugh everytime that scene came up in the theaters

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

In general these characters work better with a serious gritty approach, so approaching them the way they should be approached does inherently make them better. Shazam is the only exception of the upcoming roster. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Sandman, JL and BvS would all benefit from a serious gritty approach.

Even in the comics, they've been fairly dark and serious. There are some sinister DC comics stories out there...

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I didn't find MOS to be dark and serious. It was pretty comic booky to me. From what I have seen so far of BvS it may be a little further turn into dark and serious though. I guess that should be assumed anyways when you include Batman in the universe

 

[TheNextNolan22]

I have read some pretty weighty Aquaman comics (not THAT many mind you). DC in general has always been a bit more serious.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Sorry but most MCU humor sucks and if they carried that tone over to the DCU, that'd be a massive disappointment. There are multiple MCU movies that are ruined by comedy. I want my comic book movies to be serious. I hope the DCCU is nothing like the MCU, and I don't think it will be. I want scary, developed, and threatening villains, and FAR less humor. I don't want any of the DC movies to border on comedy like half of the MCU does.

Some people think comedy/superheroics is a good mix, I don't agree. There are a few occasions where the MCU overdoes it completely. Keep the superhero comedy out of this universe, give us very subtle comedic moments, there's no need for MCU level comedy.

Thor movies are really not that great, it's the wrong way to approach the mythology related superhero. I have faith that WB will do it right with Aquaman and Wonder Woman. They should be 300/Clash of the Titans type stories, hopefully with better scripts though, but those films are in the right direction. No real need for humor in these movies, they can be played straight.

I loved MOS, it's one of my all time favorite films, and i think it's the perfect film to kickstart this universe, it has a great tone to build a universe around. The humor criticisms don't phase me, I thought there was plenty of humor. The only line i really had a problem with was the "it all goes downhill after the first kiss" line.

I don't need humor in these movies. I don't see these movies to laugh... i guess some people do, but that's not what I want out of comic book movies.

Here's something we should all be able to agree on.... The Lord of the Rings trilogy should be emulated here in terms of humor. I loved the subtle humor in that trilogy. MCU is too much. X-Men series has the right amount. TDKT has the right amount.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

The Superman 2 scene was funny. No reason to read that much into it

 

[Guts]

I think it's appropriate that Marvel and DC have differenet tones when it comes to their movies. Joss Whedon was asked what he thinks DC should do to be better. http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Joss-Whedon-Really-Likes-One-Thing-About-DC-Comics-Movies-66641.html

"I don’t think I would say that. I think that would be a little presumptuous of me. I think that both studios have kind of different agendas, different ways of approaching the superhero genre, and the ethos of the thing, and the esthetic. They go very dark and serious and sometimes it works amazingly, and Marvel tends to be a little lighter. Both have movies that I adore, and both have movies that I’m like… [pained expression]. Including bits of my own. I would not want them to do what Marvel does. I like what they do when they get it right. When you get a Heath Ledger, and Batman Begins, and those things that really grip you. That’s something nobody else is doing, and I like it. I want them to do what they’re doing."

 

[Rorschach2012]

The dude nailed it ^

let the MCU keep being lighthearted, family friendly and heavy on comedy
let the DCCU be serious, scarier, more adult oriented, and light on comedy

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Let the Thor movies be better than the second one

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I still don't think it's necessary to have a distinction between studios instead of characters.

Do all the Sony movies need to go dark because of the MCU?

 

[Rorschach2012]

I still don't think it's necessary to have a distinction between studios instead of characters.

Do all the Sony movies need to go dark because of the MCU?

Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Batman
Superman
Sandman
Green Lantern

should all be movies that are darker than the typical MCU film. None of these should have as much comedy as the IM movies, GOTG or the Thor movies.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

I think it's appropriate that Marvel and DC have differenet tones when it comes to their movies. Joss Whedon was asked what he thinks DC should do to be better. http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Joss-Whedon-Really-Likes-One-Thing-About-DC-Comics-Movies-66641.html

Yup, Joss is just echoing what I've always thought. These two studios are very different in how they manage their movies and are successful at it when it works and is done well. I want the best of both worlds. So MCU can do them and DCCU can do themselves as well. Bravo Whedon. He gets it.

 

[Flint Marko]

Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Batman
Superman
Sandman
Green Lantern

should all be movies that are darker than the typical MCU film. None of these should have as much comedy as the IM movies, GOTG or the Thor movies.

This is the problem that I'm having here. You're making blanket statements about characters and how "dark" they are, saying the approach you personally prefer is the one most appropriate for their films. I'll give you Sandman and Batman. But why should the rest of them be handled in the same way?
Once again, that is putting the cart before the horse. More times than not you can't look at a property and say, "this is how the tone should be" before you even know what the story is. At that point you are just shoehorning in what you want to see, potentially at the expense of the movie's quality.
I'm not saying a dark superman or wonder woman movie wouldn't work. It very well could. But that's one of the last things you worry about; you look at a character and what has made them popular for the past several decades, try to pull out the best bits and pieces of that, and go from there and tell a great story. You can't start with the tone and work backwards.
The idea that DC makes "serious, mature" movies is based solely on the fact that Nolan had a successful trilogy with Batman. The rest of their movies have been relatively campy, and now WB is trying to make the rest of their future film slate look like it was cut from the same cloth as TDKT. Man of Steel pretty much proves that, and shows the level of success that they will likely have from here on out.
To summarize, I'm not against more serious, humorless films in general but I am against having that as a basic framework to work a movie into. It's not about watching a movie and laughing, or the presence of jokes, or any of that. My problem is making a film dark and serious solely for the sake of being dark and serious, and not considering the fact that maybe a different approach would be better for that particular story. I saw no reason to make Man of Steel as dour and joyless as it was, and is why I think the reaction to it was so mixed. I think DC could have a variety of different approaches and tones in their upcoming movies, there is no need for them to all fit the same general mold.
I'm not trying to get into a heated argument, or change anyone's mind. I'm just expressing a concern I have about WB's upcoming movies, because I want them to be great, successful movies but I personally don't think they're going in the right direction.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Paragraphs please

 

[Rorschach2012]

This is the problem that I'm having here. You're making blanket statements about characters and how "dark" they are, saying the approach you personally prefer is the one most appropriate for their films. I'll give you Sandman and Batman. But why should the rest of them be handled in the same way?
Once again, that is putting the cart before the horse. More times than not you can't look at a property and say, "this is how the tone should be" before you even know what the story is. At that point you are just shoehorning in what you want to see, potentially at the expense of the movie's quality.
I'm not saying a dark superman or wonder woman movie wouldn't work. It very well could. But that's one of the last things you worry about; you look at a character and what has made them popular for the past several decades, try to pull out the best bits and pieces of that, and go from there and tell a great story. You can't start with the tone and work backwards.
The idea that DC makes "serious, mature" movies is based solely on the fact that Nolan had a successful trilogy with Batman. The rest of their movies have been relatively campy, and now WB is trying to make the rest of their future film slate look like it was cut from the same cloth as TDKT. Man of Steel pretty much proves that, and shows the level of success that they will likely have from here on out.
To summarize, I'm not against more serious, humorless films in general but I am against having that as a basic framework to work a movie into. It's not about watching a movie and laughing, or the presence of jokes, or any of that. My problem is making a film dark and serious solely for the sake of being dark and serious, and not considering the fact that maybe a different approach would be better for that particular story. I saw no reason to make Man of Steel as dour and joyless as it was, and is why I think the reaction to it was so mixed. I think DC could have a variety of different approaches and tones in their upcoming movies, there is no need for them to all fit the same general mold.
I'm not trying to get into a heated argument, or change anyone's mind. I'm just expressing a concern I have about WB's upcoming movies, because I want them to be great, successful movies but I personally don't think they're going in the right direction.

Based on my opinions on the already existing source material, these characters would benefit from a serious/dark approach. It's not dark for the sake of being dark. The mentioned characters just lend themselves to a darker/serious approach.

MOS wasn't dour and joyless to me. Maybe it seems that way if you're used to the way the MCU does things. I expected something more serious along the lines of the Nolan trilogy, and that's pretty much what we got.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Based on my opinions on the already existing source material, these characters would benefit from a serious/dark approach. It's not dark for the sake of being dark. The mentioned characters just lend themselves to a darker/serious approach.

MOS wasn't dour and joyless to me. Maybe it seems that way if you're used to the way the MCU does things. I expected something more serious along the lines of the Nolan trilogy, and that's pretty much what we got.

MOS holds up very well on repeated viewings. I think we all had in mind what kind of Superman film we would make before seeing MOS. With more viewings the expectations of that elements are diminished and the film can just be viewed for what it is.

 

[Flint Marko]

Based on my opinions on the already existing source material, these characters would benefit from a serious/dark approach. It's not dark for the sake of being dark. The mentioned characters just lend themselves to a darker/serious approach.

MOS wasn't dour and joyless to me. Maybe it seems that way if you're used to the way the MCU does things. I expected something more serious along the lines of the Nolan trilogy, and that's pretty much what we got.

I went in expecting the same thing and left disappointed, as I feel the tone was not earned. Yes, we got something more serious but why was it that way? Why did it have to be so humorless, and devoid of fun? The only answer is because WB wanted to emulate Nolan's success with Batman, and that is what bugs me. They didn't tell a coherent story which lent itself to that sort of approach in my opinion, it wasn't necessary for the movie. You can say it wasn't dour or joyless, but I think you'd be in the minority.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Great posts, Rorschach, and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I do enjoy the Marvel films a lot, but sometimes they do go a bit too heavy into the comedy. Thor: The Dark World was an entertaining way to pass a couple hours, but it didn't really stick with in the same way that MOS did because, despite the fact that the entire universe was at stake in the former (as I recall), somehow it didn't really feel like much was at stake at all.

I would chalk that down to a combination of the convoluted sci-fi plot -- where characters are constantly trying to explain the Aether and its effects -- and the heavy humour that was prominent even in the climactic battle between Thor and Malekith and made the resulting fight between them feel less significant somehow.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Yeah I feel the same way you do about Thor the Dark World. It best represents my problems with the MCU, too much humor and a non threatening villain.

And also with the DC movies, I generally don't want the villains to be making any jokes or to be defeated in a jokey way.

I really think the Nolan trilogy was pretty near perfection. It handled the villains perfectly. The new universe needs to be less realistic obviously, but that degree of seriousness and the threat level of the Nolan trilogy villains should be emulated by this new universe.

Zod was handled really well, he didn't tell jokes, wasn't defeated in a funny way, he was just threatening all through out the movie.

On repeat viewings I've grown much fonder of Man of Steel.

The amount of humor in that movie is fine IMO.

I would like a more lighthearted Superman movie directed by Brad Bird, with more uplifting moments. I think the ideal Superman film lies in between the 78 film and MOS. Superman TAS is probably my favorite adaptation so far.

The ideal Batman movie would be a blend of the mature horror inspired visuals of Arkham Asylum: ASHOSE and everything else would be BTAS inspired. TDKT was the perfect amount of humor for Batman.

Aquaman can be humorless, I think he works best that way. Getting the 300 writer for that is genius IMO, making Aquaman an underwater, more fantasy oriented 300 type story is a great idea. Especially consider the type of Aquaman Momoa will give us.