The Amazing Spider-Man What Raimi Really Messed Up!

[DACMAN]

Hum... Didn't the Dark knight made a lot of millions?
And didn't Christopher Nolan had all the right to do what he wanted for this movie? He even made the joker perma white and that is for a lot of Joker fans, a shame. But after all, the idea became more and more accepted, and now we are looking at heath's joker like one of the best ever.

I know it can be boring to always hear the dark knight as an exemple, but it is the best out of it yet.

I'm not saying he can't put his personal touches on things. I'm saying that at the end of the day the people who are suppose to enjoy it are us and not him. He was given that money to turn out a product. He can put his own personal touches all over it all he wants, we just better like it because that's his job, to make a good movie.

And right, Nolan is a great example. He put his own personal touches all over the two Bat films and people liked them. Or Transformers who Bay put his personal touch all over as well. Which are things exploding ever 3 seconds.

 

[spider-neil]

what sam REALLY messed up was spidey's origin. imho spidey's origin is the best in comics (yes even batman) purely because if he simply stuck out his leg and tripped the robber he would still have his uncle. so spidey is driven by guilt, in his mind he HAS to put on the costume because someone might get hurt of worse if he fails to act again.

the retcon of spidey's origin in the third movie makes all that null and void. raimi is a fan and raimi is also not an idiot which begs the question - WHAT WAS HE THINKING?!!

 

[DACMAN]

Yeah, he really screwed all that up.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

If you think Spideys origin is the best in comics, then you need to read more comics.

Spideys origin is good, don't get me wrong.

But there is much more interesting and meaningful origins out there than his

 

[david icke]

If you think Spideys origin is the best in comics, then you need to read more comics.

Spideys origin is good, don't get me wrong.

But there is much more interesting and meaningful origins out there than his

You personally might find some other hero or villan's origin more interesting, but I don't see how it could be any more 'meaningful' than Spider-mans.

And it's also a great origin as it's so simple in the telling, you could tell that round a campfire, unlike some heroes origins, like Wolverines, where you need to dedicate a whole comicbook series to unravelling it.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh yea I just mean in my opinion, of course.

But I'm just saying you should broaden your horizons. There are a lot of interesting origins out there.

And yea Wolverines origin and history is a convoluted mess.

 

[david icke]

Oh yea I just mean in my opinion, of course.

But I'm just saying you should broaden your horizons. There are a lot of interesting origins out there.

Personally, I should probably do that. A large percentage of my superhero cb collection has spiders and bats in them.

And yea Wolverines origin and history is a convoluted mess.

I avoided all that, wanted to keep it a mystery. I mean, I had a quick look at Wolveinre origins, but I didn't like the look of it.
I even avoided 'Weapon X' when it was first published as i was pissed off with Marvel for not dealing with that in his regular solo series. Instead they put it in Marvel comics Presents, 8 pages a fortnight, so 2 issues a month, to milk money out of all the Wolverine fans who were waiting on it.
I prefer it to remain a mystery, although I did do a quick wiki read of where he started off from.

I do think the SM origin is one of the true greats of storytelling. I mean structre wise it's simple, but thematically it's complex, and that's the type of story that stays with you. You can read that as a kid and understand it, but appreciate it on another level when you get older.

I mean, on the surface the one in the movie is the same, but it's quite different. In the movie he lets the robber escape out of revenge for being gypped for money, it still fits the 'with great powers comes great responsibility' lesson.
But in the original it's about a kid who has been pissed on by folk his entire life, apart from two people, his Uncle and Aunt.
So when he gets this great power he sets about becoming a big tv star, getting the fame and the riches to set up himself and his family.
So when he lets the robber run past it's because he only cares about himself and his family, everyone else can take care of themselves.
So he becomes the very type of person who pissed on him his entire life.
And who suffers in the end because of that decision? Himself and his family.
As storytelling goes, that's like a timeless parable.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea that is a great story. I like stories like that where the normal guy has to learn a lesson to become the hero. Where there is a tragedy. That's why I like Deadpool too.

 

[david icke]

Yea that is a great story. I like stories like that where the normal guy has to learn a lesson to become the hero. Where there is a tragedy. That's why I like Deadpool too.

I've only read one volume of Cable/Deadpool a while ago, so I haven't read anything about him at all really. With all the talk about him on these boards though it's made me want to check out some of his comics, so when money is permitting I'll probably pick some up.

 

[DACMAN]

You're not missing much IMO. He's basically Wolverine with an off the wall sense of humor. He has a tragic past, joins weapon X and gets some enhanced powers, does somethings he regrets, and his memories are all screwed up. He's now on the fence about being a good guy or not. Trust me, he's just Wolverine with a sense of humor and less of a code of honor.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Not really...

You think Punisher is a more interesting character so that shows your taste.

 

[DACMAN]

There was too many villains in Spider-Man 3? He says he needs to get "back to the basics?" Like THAT'S the reason 3 sucked? Wasn't he the one that said The Dark Knight raised the bar? Was he not aware that The Dark Knight had 3 villains in it as well? Scarecrow, Two Face, and the Joker. And Batman and Robin would have still sucked if it just had Poisen Ivy in it, and Catwoman still sucked with only one villain. It has nothing to do with the amount of villains and everything to do with the script and the directing. I think he's trying to shift the blame to something it's not. It suffered from bad writing and bad directing. The fact he doesn't see that (or is just shifting the blame) worries me. It makes me loose hope in Spider-Man 4 being any good.

 

[spider-neil]

I've read a lot of origins what I like most about spidey's origin is but for one decision he would have turned into a completely difference person. there was a 'what if' comic which showed what would have happened if he'd actually stopped the robber, he comes a full time stage peformer.

each to their own but I think it's a really interesting origin rather than the usual accident that gives the hero powers and he/she decides, what the heck I'll just fight crime. zzzzzz
as if your average perform would chose to fight crime if given fantastic powers, chances are they would turn their abilities into getting rich.

 

[Infinity9999x]

You're not missing much IMO. He's basically Wolverine with an off the wall sense of humor. He has a tragic past, joins weapon X and gets some enhanced powers, does somethings he regrets, and his memories are all screwed up. He's now on the fence about being a good guy or not. Trust me, he's just Wolverine with a sense of humor and less of a code of honor.

Yeah, his personality is completely different from Wolverine's. The dude's a manic psychotic.

 

[sauronthegreat]

Wasn't he the one that said The Dark Knight raised the bar? Was he not aware that The Dark Knight had 3 villains in it as well? Scarecrow, Two Face, and the Joker.

I think that Maroni is more fitting to take the third place instead of the Scarecrow. Even the Chechen had a lot more appearance. But yes Scarecrow was there. As Batman Begins also had three villains, who worked perfectly well, and it was an origin story. I completely agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Venom75]

I do agree somewhat,about Spidey being more humorous. But sometimes it does get to be a little annoying,esp. when he's fighting these supervillains and he's in serious trouble. I understand that's his way of dealing with fear,but it takes away from the seriousness of not only the villain,but the situation.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see him be more funny and thorw out more quips,but I can understand why the films choose not to go that route.

 

[bullets]

Spider-man 3 was 90 percent comedy

 

[spider-neil]

Originally Posted by DACMAN
Wasn't he the one that said The Dark Knight raised the bar? Was he not aware that The Dark Knight had 3 villains in it as well? Scarecrow, Two Face, and the Joker.

scarecrow was a throw away villian
dents descent into two face made no scense whatsoever. without tempting fate losing my girlfriend and having half my face melted off wouldn't make me go on crime spree (maybe )

what nolan did correctly was he choose the right villian to focus on rahter than trying to give them all screen time which ultimately watered them ALL down.

 

[sauronthegreat]

I can't see how the Joker or Harvey Dent were watered down in the Dark Knight... even Ras Al Ghul or Scarecrow in Batman Begins. All of them were thoughtfully and intelligently portrayed. And it proved that a screentime is sometimes not that important if you delve into the psychology of the character. Even one or two scenes can define a character, but it must be skillfuly done, just like Nolan did. Whereas Raimi failed.

 

[zeptron]

I'll just repeat myself from the other thread since it's closed now.

The amount of villains was NOT the problem in SM3. It was the use of unnecessary things to spend time. They focused too much on Peter and MJ's relationship(which was already established) and have Harry and her cooking, dancing, reading poetry and other useless things, instead of developing the villains, Spidey's double life and showing MJ as a partner in life, like she was in comics, talking to Peter about his battles and curing his wounds, being present, caring. A different writer would matter, though.

Just too much unnecessary things going on. Both the 90s cartoon and TSSM handled the symbiote story a lot better. They developed so many things (many more things than the movie) within 60/90 minutes, telling the symbiote saga and Peter's showdown with Venom.

Having multiple villains doesn't automatically make a movie bad and reducing them to just one is not gonna automatically make it better. Batman and Robin still would have sucked even if Mr Freeze was the only villain, because of the bad take on the characters, the tone of the movie, all the cold puns, etc. If the story and direction is good. Movie is good. Regardless of the villain count. SM3 could have been done wonderfully with the three villains used.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

If you think Spideys origin is the best in comics, then you need to read more comics.

Spideys origin is good, don't get me wrong.

But there is much more interesting and meaningful origins out there than his

To each his own, but I, personally, think Spider-Man is the most interesting character in comic books.

 

[DACMAN]

Originally Posted by DACMAN
Wasn't he the one that said The Dark Knight raised the bar? Was he not aware that The Dark Knight had 3 villains in it as well? Scarecrow, Two Face, and the Joker.

scarecrow was a throw away villian
dents descent into two face made no scense whatsoever. without tempting fate losing my girlfriend and having half my face melted off wouldn't make me go on crime spree (maybe )

what nolan did correctly was he choose the right villian to focus on rahter than trying to give them all screen time which ultimately watered them ALL down.

Wow.
You missed allot didn't you? Rachel was pregnant. He didn't just loose her, he lost his kid too.

He says to Gordon "You wouldn't dare try to justify yourself if you knew what'd I'd lost"

He knew about Rachel, no one knew she was pregnant.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Spider-man 3 was 90 percent comedy

Yes, mostly in the wrong ways.

Raimi puts in lots of funny things in his Spider-man movie, but far too much of it focuses on "Look how NERDY! Peter is! He even gets picked on by kids in college! LOLZ!"

It's fine if some of the humor comes from the nerd aspect, but most of it should be from Spidey's wit.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Wow.
You missed allot didn't you? Rachel was pregnant. He didn't just loose her, he lost his kid too.

He says to Gordon "You wouldn't dare try to justify yourself if you knew what'd I'd lost"

He knew about Rachel, no one knew she was pregnant.

That's purely conjecture DAC. There's absolutely nothing that indicates Rachel was pregnant. Harvey easily could have simply been talking about how hard it was to lose the women he loved. She was his only "family."

I'm sure if Rachel had been pregnant, Nolan would have insinuated this or simply written in a line in the script.

Sorry, but I think you're off base with that one.

 

[DACMAN]

He did insinuate it. Gordon knew about her, he knew they loved eachother, what didn't he know? It's sad that some movies have to spell it out for people now a days. I'm not picking on you I'm really just saying. Because that's what made it so well done. Rachel even ended up picking Harvey over Bruce because of that (or at least it contributed.)

They gave all kinds of hints all throughout the movie. Notice she wasn't drinking at the party when everyone else was? I'm serious. What was he talking about then when he says "you have no idea what I've lost." Eveyone knew they were together. Are you saying no one knew they had a thing going on?