The Amazing Spider-Man What Raimi Really Messed Up!

[spider-neil]

the truth is I found SM3 entertaining but disappointing that is a big difference between that and say superman returns which I plain hated. SM3 had the potential to be so much more, heck with better editing SM3 could be a better movie.

I thought for half the movie, up to where spidey fights sandman for the second time in the sewer I was really enjoying the movie then it loses it's way badly.

what done is done but personally if I were in charge I would have made it so

* sandman had no family was just a plain unrepentive crook
* spidey spends the entire movie in the black costume
* the main villian is green goblin jr the secondary villian is sandman (vemon appears at the very end just after his transformation the credits roll).
* sandman only grows massive for one scene, there is no tention with having spidey fight someone the size of a building , the fight isn't personal anymore.
* the climatic fight spidey battle GG jr and spidey accidently kills harry as a result of the black suit, he then go to the bell tower to remove the suit resulting in the birth o venom

a) more screen time for GG jr
b) more screen time for sandman
c) venom is all but pushed out of the movie so an entire movie can be devoted to him to do him justice
d) all elements of 'saturday night fever spidey' removed *shudder*

you could acheive pretty much the above with the stuff that was shot and a couple of reshoots and clever editing

 

[Infinity9999x]

He did insinuate it. Gordon knew about her, he knew they loved eachother, what didn't he know? It's sad that some movies have to spell it out for people now a days. I'm not picking on you I'm really just saying. Because that's what made it so well done. Rachel even ended up picking Harvey over Bruce because of that (or at least it contributed.)

They gave all kinds of hints all throughout the movie. Notice she wasn't drinking at the party when everyone else was? I'm serious. What was he talking about then when he says "you have no idea what I've lost." Eveyone knew they were together. Are you saying no one knew they had a thing going on?

Again, none of this indicates she was pregnant. "You have no idea what I've lost" could easily be Harvey simply talking about Rachel. We know he has no other family besides her. Losing the woman he loved was huge.

And it was never, NEVER, implied that Rachel chose Harvey because of anything else besides the reasons she stated in the movie. She was already in love with Harvey, and she wasn't happy with him that Bruce let Harvey lie about being Batman.

Again, I get all about subtext, but with something that big, you don't keep it in subtext. Thats bad storytelling, plain and simple. And sorry to say, but TDK really wasn't all that tricky about it's plot line. In fact, it kind of spells everything out for you. Heck, there was even a big debate in the Bat boards a while ago that TDK spelled out things too much, for the audience. A specific instance being when Gordon says "He planned it from the begginning. The Joker wanted to be caught." The only thing it doesn't outright tell you is that the Joker lied to Bats about where Rachel and Harvey were, but again, we infer that he lied because Batman finds Harvey instead of Rachel.

If there were scenes of Rachel looking at a preg. test, or Harvey running his hand over her stomach, I would agree with you. But there wasn't. There's nothing to back up you're theory because every single instance you think points to it can easily be applied to the story as it is known now.

 

[chaseter]

I like how Sam comes out, admits his mistakes with SM3...and then people bash him for that??? Umk!?

 

[omid17]

I like how Sam comes out, admits his mistakes with SM3...and then people bash him for that??? Umk!?

i was happy as hell when i heard that from Raimi and that's why im excited for SM4

 

[DACMAN]

I like how Sam comes out, admits his mistakes with SM3...and then people bash him for that??? Umk!?

We're not bashing him for saying he screwed up. We're bashing him for what he says he screwed up. He ruined Spider-Man's best villain, screwed up Spidey's origin, gave Peter dumb emo hair, made him dance, and made the climax ANOTHER Mj gets kid napped by the super villain affair. And he thinks it was the amount of villains?

It's like having someone pass you a note that says "You suck!" Who then kicks you in the balls and punches you in the face. Once it's all over he then says he's sorry for handing you the note. It's like, yeah that really wasn't so bad compared to the other stuff you need to address.

 

[omid17]

We're not bashing him for saying he screwed up. We're bashing him for what he says he screwed up. He ruined Spider-Man's best villain, screwed up Spidey's origin, gave Peter dumb emo hair, made him dance, and made the climax ANOTHER Mj gets kid napped by the super villain affair. And he thinks it was the amount of villains?

It's like having someone pass you a note that says "You suck!" Who then kicks you in the balls and punches you in the face. Once it's all over he then says he's sorry for handing you the note. It's like, yeah that really wasn't so bad compared to the other stuff you need to address.

i have to agree with you Dacman but atleast he said something

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Wow.
You missed allot didn't you? Rachel was pregnant. He didn't just loose her, he lost his kid too.

whatt???

no...not in the movie, nor the novel, is it stated rachel was pregnant. sorry man,but your 100% wrong on this one.

 

[Oscorp]

We're not bashing him for saying he screwed up. We're bashing him for what he says he screwed up. He ruined Spider-Man's best villain, screwed up Spidey's origin, gave Peter dumb emo hair, made him dance, and made the climax ANOTHER Mj gets kid napped by the super villain affair. And he thinks it was the amount of villains?

It's like having someone pass you a note that says "You suck!" Who then kicks you in the balls and punches you in the face. Once it's all over he then says he's sorry for handing you the note. It's like, yeah that really wasn't so bad compared to the other stuff you need to address.

I agree that he didn't do Spidey's best villain, Green Goblin, real justice but that was a long time ago now

I agree with the rest of what you said but I still think it's good that he admits that Spider-Man 3 is a bad movie.

 

[chaseter]

He is talking about SM3. He screwed up his origin by making Sandman the killer. I would assume he is talking about the best villain as Venom.

Sam has made two great movies. If he knows his faults with the one he messed up on, I don't see the need to bash him for saying he messed up. If he can give us another movie with the same caliber that he did SM2, then I don't see why anybody needs to sit here and judge his faults with SM3.

 

[Oscorp]

He is talking about SM3. He screwed up his origin by making Sandman the killer. I would assume he is talking about the best villain as Venom.

Sam has made two great movies. If he knows his faults with the one he messed up on, I don't see the need to bash him for saying he messed up. If he can give us another movie with the same caliber that he did SM2, then I don't see why anybody needs to sit here and judge his faults with SM3.

I know he did that, I just found it funny that he said "Spidey's best villain" when Spidey's best villain was in the first movie

 

[LightningFlash]

We're not bashing him for saying he screwed up. We're bashing him for what he says he screwed up. He ruined Spider-Man's best villain, screwed up Spidey's origin, gave Peter dumb emo hair, made him dance, and made the climax ANOTHER Mj gets kid napped by the super villain affair. And he thinks it was the amount of villains?

It's like having someone pass you a note that says "You suck!" Who then kicks you in the balls and punches you in the face. Once it's all over he then says he's sorry for handing you the note. It's like, yeah that really wasn't so bad compared to the other stuff you need to address.

Exactly. And as a supposedly "true fan" of Spider-Man, you'd think that, perhaps, if he tried a bit better with the movie, then he wouldn't have to come out and say, "Yah, I could've done better".


And I wonder if Raimi realizes that a CARTOON did more justice to Venom and Sandman(The Spectacular Spider-Man).

 

[chaseter]

Cartoons do more justice to any characters...because they are closer to comics than live action. Cartoons also span for many episodes to allow character arcs to develop better. So, I wonder if a 24 episodic season of a cartoon is going to have better character development than a two hour movie

 

[LightningFlash]

Well TSSM had Sandman for a few episodes, as well as a couple of cameos, so I'd say Sandman had maybe twenty minutes top in season one. And Venom was in two episodes, plus Eddie here and there in season one, so I'd give Eddie/Venom twenty-five minutes. PLUS, TSSM's seasons only has thirteen episodes. So, really, what TSSM did was MUCH shorter than two hours, and still came off where we got to understand both Eddie and Flint that didn't make us scratch our heads, and Sandman and Venom worked really well into the series, and they both had some great fights with Spidey.

I mean, if you look at it like the way I'm seeing it, Raimi should've done more with Spider-Man 3 than what he should have, and his movie is now being animated(or at least the trailers), just because TSSM did a much better job with the villains.

I do want to clarify, however, that Raimi's version of Green Goblin and Doc Ock can be viewed very similar to TSSM's versions. It's just Sandman and Venom.

Truthfully though, if Raimi wants to bring Spider-Man out of the ashes, he needs to bring in Lizard. Enough horsing-around with stupid storylines that will only screw up the villain. We've met Dr. Connors, bring him into the mix.

 

[chaseter]

Sandman and Venom weren't in the movie for two hours either. Point is, Sandman and Venom did get the shaft and it angered me as well as a lot of fans. Most of us agree that SM3 wasn't as good as it could have been, as it should have been. That said, Raimi had Venom forced upon him by Arad and Raimi has admitted his mistakes. Raimi deserves one last chance to redeem himself to bring the fourth movie the quality level that was SM2. Hell, it could be even better!

Cartoons are always a better medium to bring to life comic characters anyways. You can do so much more with cartoons and get away with it than you can live action. We all love TAS and I think that proves that point.

I agree about the Lizard. Raimi needs a strong story to bring this franchise out of the hole it is in. Connors is already connected to Peter so we don't have to worry about a lame retcon. Now, we all know Kraven practically writes himself into that movie and would be a good pairing with Lizard.

 

[Rodimus Primal]

All the villians in the movie seemed like they were an afterthought in Spiderman 3 and Raimi even admits that. While Sandman was written the way Raimi wanted it, it made a convoluted mess that screws up Spiderman's origin and ruins reasoning for Sandmand to be a further villian. Harry was the real villian in the movie until he lets it aside. If anything the way he was handled was fine except for his change of costume. Venom was a throwaway character that will make the retcon of the Venom movie hard to believe.

Lizard and Kraven are the most logical choices for Spidey 4. While Raimi might not want to do 2 villians, it can work for the right reasons so long as the story is done right.

Quiping does seem missing in the movies and I do agree it should be done A LOT MORE. But if written terribly then be glad they are taken out.

 

[DACMAN]

That said, Raimi had Venom forced upon him by Arad and Raimi has admitted his mistakes.

Being forced to work with a certain character should never be a blank check to making the movie suck. Directors and writers are forced to use certain characters all the time. When Raimi did Spider-Man 1 he was forced to use Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin, Harry, JJ, and all the others. The director of Iron Man was "forced" to use Iron Monger. Saying he had to use Venom is a terrible excuse for the movie to suck.

 

[spider-neil]

Being forced to work with a certain character should never be a blank check to making the movie suck.

true enough but having a passion for a character will instantly make you want do a better job. anyway sam is out of excuses if the next movie sucks it will be down to him an no one else.

 

[chaseter]

Being forced to work with a certain character should never be a blank check to making the movie suck. Directors and writers are forced to use certain characters all the time. When Raimi did Spider-Man 1 he was forced to use Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin, Harry, JJ, and all the others. The director of Iron Man was "forced" to use Iron Monger. Saying he had to use Venom is a terrible excuse for the movie to suck.

That is true. Being forced to do something you don't want to do is not an excuse for making a bad product. However, doing something that you love to do goes to show you how much better the product can be. Arad should have never forced Venom down Raimi's throat. You let the talent do their job that you hired them to do and have done good so far.

John Favreu may have been forced to use Iron Monger, I have no idea. I didn't like Iron Monger...he was a pretty lame villain and the climax was a let down. However, Iron Man was still a great movie. So, I imagine John has been given rull reign on this movie and it is shaping up to be an even better movie...we will see.

Saying he had to use Venom isn't a terrible excuse. When you do things your own way and are good at that, having someone throw in a kink into the spinning cogs is going to mess things up. Yes, Raimi could have made a better movie...we agree on that. I hated SM3. But, he has admitted his mistakes so I see no point in further whining about it. That is the point. That shows you that he saw what he did wrong and is willing to fix that to get back to the way things were sans SM3. Do you not want another Spidey flick on par with or better than SM2

If Raimi wasn't humble and was talking about how great he thought SM3 was...then I would agree with you. Raimi isn't Brett Ratner, he knows what he messed up on and is willing to fix his mistakes. He has publicly apologized. What more do you want him to do? Give you his children???

 

[LightningFlash]

true enough but having a passion for a character will instantly make you want do a better job. anyway sam is out of excuses if the next movie sucks it will be down to him an no one else.

I think everyone can blame Arad for "insisting" to use Venom and the symbiote.

And you're stupid if you don't blame Raimi for screwing up Venom and the symbiote.

Sure, if you have a passion for a character, you would do a better job, BUT...Raimi said he has a "passion" for Spider-Man, so he has NO excuses. He screwed up Sandman's storyline, and pressured his arc into Uncle Ben's death(no excuse), he pretty much did a whole 360 on Peter's storyline(from man to *****(being a cry-baby plus emo) to man again), which is no excuse, and also, the symbiote isn't supposed to make someone Gerald Way. I mean, did the symbiote mess up Peter's hair in TAS or TSSM? NO.

And Venom...Raimi should've done a much better job with him, as in giving Eddie more screentime and giving Venom more screen time, or if not, give him more to do; make him a powerful foe, not someone that will be easy to be kicked around, TWICE. He should've been a beast and gone after Peter, Harry, MJ, Gwen, Aunt May, Dr. Connors, Sandman, hell, every single person. Venom is not the smartest villain, but he goes after what he wants. In TSSM, he pretty much stalked around May and Gwen in the season-one finale. What we got was a lonely version of Venom that needed backup to kill Spider-Man. And what was with the face time for Eddie? That was lame as hell.

Personally, Arad is to be blamed to wanting Venom and the symbiote in Spider-Man 3. He should've let Raimi do what he wanted to do for the film, but Raimi deserves all credit for making the movie the way it was. It was his fault. Arad didn't have a gun to Raimi's forehead and kept saying "Make the movie a crapfest delight."

 

[LightningFlash]

And chaseter, Jon wasn't forced to use Iron Monger. His original plan was to use the Mandarin, but decided to wait on Mandarin, because he felt that Mandarin was to Iron Man as Emperor was to Star Wars. So, with that being said, we may be seeing some Mandarin glimpses in IMII since we did see Emperor in TESB.

 

[chaseter]

Yeah Venom should have had more screen time. The movie was another 30 minutes longer. Raimi had to cut it down...you can blame the studio for that. There are many facets to why SM3 was bad.

I hate Venom anyways, he is one of the worst characters in Spider-Man mythology. I didn't want him in SM3 to begin with and I never want to see him again. His solo movie will suck and I won't even bother to see it.

 

[chaseter]

And chaseter, Jon wasn't forced to use Iron Monger. His original plan was to use the Mandarin, but decided to wait on Mandarin, because he felt that Mandarin was to Iron Man as Emperor was to Star Wars. So, with that being said, we may be seeing some Mandarin glimpses in IMII.

I didn't follow the production of IM so I took DAC's word for face value. Good to know!

 

[LightningFlash]

Yeah Venom should have had more screen time. The movie was another 30 minutes longer. Raimi had to cut it down...you can blame the studio for that. There are many facets to why SM3 was bad.

I hate Venom anyways, he is one of the worst characters in Spider-Man mythology. I didn't want him in SM3 to begin with and I never want to see him again. His solo movie will suck and I won't even bother to see it.

Okay, so Raimi had to cut it down...then why haven't we heard anything about a director's cut then? I still see it as Raimi's fault.

And I'm a big fan of Venom myself, and wondering what his solo movie will be about. I actually want it to have no connection with Spider-Man 3.

 

[chaseter]

We didn't hear about Spider-Man 2.1 for how long? We know a lot of footage was shot and not used in the movie so it is out there, just like it was for SM2. I wouldn't be surprised if Raimi didn't even bother with it, I wouldn't. Although those things that were shot will help the movie out a little, it won't fix it and all the stuff I hated will still be in the movie. I wouldn't buy it anyways.

 

[HughJackFan420]

i liked spidey 3 what would've saved the movie from all the bashing would be if they did a Carnage cliffhanger and it should've went something like this.....

Spidey pulls Brock out of the symbiote and Spidey uses the new found kryptonite to the symbiote by using steel poles as tuning forks. he should've kept using that to drive the symbiote away fleeing the scene before Spidey can think of a way to capture it. the authoroties have Brock in custody at the local presinct and of course Capt Stacy says some harsh words to Brock and tells him if he gets free to stay away from his daughter or he'll kill him. Cletus in the cell next to him make some comment like "he really has it out for you doesn't he?" Cletus continues to taunt him and Brock's anger rages from out his cell and under the sewer pipes below him. the symbiote senses its last host and darts towards Brock's location. Brock continuing to try to shut Cletus up with a lot of rage is what draws the symbiote ever so closer and faster. finally threw a drain in the floor the symbiote leaks into Brock's cell. and like a drug addict who has been sober for days basically drools over the sight of the symbiote reaching out to Brock and as the symbiote wraps himself around Brock Cletus pulls out a mirror to see what is happening Brock's cell and starts saying stuff Aw Man I want that. come on me give me that. now in full Venom mode Brock punches a whole through the wall leading outside and sets off alarm as he swings out of view. the police charge towards Brock after seeing Brock's transformation from security cams. Cletus saddened lowers his mirror but something in the mirror catches his eye. more of the symbiot was coming out. and Cletus calls to it like a puppy. "come here boy come on" the symbiote ties around Cletus and Carnage is unleashed at the police force.....the end