What "style" should the Dr. Strange movie be?

[marcvader]

Remember guys he's a scientist.

 

[Spider - Man]

Remember guys he's a scientist.

Just not a master of the mystic arts.

 

[metaphysician]

Okay, you get the rant:

Science is not "uses a physical tool powered by electricity." Science is "the study of the world around you, by actually testing to see what the world around you does." Nothing about hand-waving magic casting places it outside the boundaries of scientific understand. All it is, is another field of phenomena that doesn't have a current good scientific understanding. . . which puts it on par with a lot of other non "magical" stuff.

So basically, when you say "I don't want any science in my magic!", you are babbling complete and utter nonsense. Unless your particular type of magic is completely random and unpredictable, or undetectable to the point of nonexistence, then it *is* subject to scientific inquiry and understanding. Even if it hasn't actually been discovered by anybody inclined to subject it to scientific inquiry yet.

 

[marcvader]

Nooo, no more rants please. Leave me to my magical rune stones and amulets.

 

[Lord]

Even magic in these stories has rules, and a system for how they work. I don't think we need to have details about them, but they should in least make the system make sence, not pull a different mcguffin spell every time there is trouble or show that being a master magicians is easier than it should be

 

[Keyser Soze]

I think the tone for Doctor Strange will be a tricky one to strike just right, as when I've thought of the world of Doctor Strange as depicted in the comics, at least the original Lee/Ditko ones, my mind instantly jumps to classic Hammer Horror, in particular the likes of The Devil Rides Out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZnuo1vuWU

A rare heroic role for Christopher Lee in that film, makes me think late 1960s era Lee would have been the ultimate Doctor Strange. Of course, by modern standards Hammer Horror is considered campy, so I don't think it would really convey to screen properly.

 

[Spider - Man]

Okay, you get the rant:

Science is not "uses a physical tool powered by electricity." Science is "the study of the world around you, by actually testing to see what the world around you does." Nothing about hand-waving magic casting places it outside the boundaries of scientific understand. All it is, is another field of phenomena that doesn't have a current good scientific understanding. . . which puts it on par with a lot of other non "magical" stuff.

So basically, when you say "I don't want any science in my magic!", you are babbling complete and utter nonsense. Unless your particular type of magic is completely random and unpredictable, or undetectable to the point of nonexistence, then it *is* subject to scientific inquiry and understanding. Even if it hasn't actually been discovered by anybody inclined to subject it to scientific inquiry yet.

First, I can't tell if you are actually arguing for science and magic to be one and the same in the real world as magic doesn't actually exist. I'm talking strictly in the fantasy world of comic books and comic book movies. Sure you can try to explain something that is perceived as magic as science ala the Bifrost in Thor. But why would you want to in a Dr. Strange movie? What's the fun in that? Did you read the comics going 'I just gotta figure out a scientific explanation for how Strange entered that girl's dream and fought with the demon Nightmare who was visiting her mind'?

As I said you could just as easily tack a world-class magician's sleight of hand explanation for stuff that Strange does but who wants a hocus-pocus abra-kadabra stage-magician version of Strange. I want Strange summoning the Power of the Vashanti.

Tell you what, if "Nothing about hand-waving magic casting places it outside the boundaries of scientific understand(ing)", give me a scientific hypothesis for how Strange can utter an incantation and summon the Crimson Bands of Cytorak (sp?) or of how his cloak of levitation works.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I like how puffed up and self-important he acts while nobody is actually saying the things he seems to want to think they're saying.

 

[seahammer]

Okay, you get the rant:

Science is not "uses a physical tool powered by electricity." Science is "the study of the world around you, by actually testing to see what the world around you does." Nothing about hand-waving magic casting places it outside the boundaries of scientific understand. All it is, is another field of phenomena that doesn't have a current good scientific understanding. . . which puts it on par with a lot of other non "magical" stuff.

So basically, when you say "I don't want any science in my magic!", you are babbling complete and utter nonsense. Unless your particular type of magic is completely random and unpredictable, or undetectable to the point of nonexistence, then it *is* subject to scientific inquiry and understanding. Even if it hasn't actually been discovered by anybody inclined to subject it to scientific inquiry yet.

I'm going to hate myself for getting involved in what is essentially an argument in semantics, but I, sir, am no babbler of nonsense (complete, utter, or otherwise).

Magic is, by definition, something supernatural (more than natural) and beyond scientific understanding. That doesn't mean that there isn't a method or technique or art to it. It does mean that the method is not a scientific one. It is something that can bend or defy physical laws, sometimes diametrically.

 

[seahammer]

I like how puffed up and self-important he acts while nobody is actually saying the things he seems to want to think they're saying.

Tell me if I fall into the same trap!

 

[metaphysician]

I'm going to hate myself for getting involved in what is essentially an argument in semantics, but I, sir, am no babbler of nonsense (complete, utter, or otherwise).

Magic is, by definition, something supernatural (more than natural) and beyond scientific understanding. That doesn't mean that there isn't a method or technique or art to it. It does mean that the method is not a scientific one. It is something that can bend or defy physical laws, sometimes diametrically.

The problem is that this is, itself, contradictory. If your altering physical law, that's still a phenomenon that can be observed, measured, and quantified. That means its subject to science. There is no "beyond scientific understanding." There is only "beyond current scientific knowledge", which is always changing itself. And all it takes for science to begin understanding something is "is a detectable phenomenon."

Which is why trying to define "magic" as "that which is impossible for science to understand" is a useless definition. Something impossible for science to understand is something impossible for *humanity* to understand, because all science is, is organized human understanding.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Tell me if I fall into the same trap!

No you're fine, you aren't pushing some weird, meaningless agenda.

 

[Farren]

I think all our metaphysician friend is arguing is that even magic can be categorized as following some form of a scientific method. (If I make the right hand signs while summoning the Bands of Cyttorak, red bands of energy spring forth -- knowing that will always happen means that there is some sort of "physical" "rules" at work).

I just don't think anyone was really claiming that wasn't the case to begin with. This debate is literally over semantics.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I'll leave it to our friend Neil Gaiman to define the difference between science and magic:

Science is a way of talking about the universe in words that bind it to a common reality. Magic is a method of talking to the universe in words that it cannot ignore. The two are rarely compatible.

 

[Spider - Man]

I'll leave it to our friend Neil Gaiman to define the difference between science and magic:

Science is a way of talking about the universe in words that bind it to a common reality. Magic is a method of talking to the universe in words that it cannot ignore. The two are rarely compatible.

Feh, Gaiman's just a complete nonsense babbler!

What is so hilarious is he (metaphyz) is arguing for the compatibility betwen something that exists (science) and something that does not (magic). In Harry Potter do we really want to believe that his cloak of invisibility is actually sewn with thousands of nano-sized cameras and projectors as the real-world version is or would we rather accept that it operates on some supernatural level that is beyond the ability of science to explain?

Phyz argues that nothing is beyond scientific understanding though the very fact that you can't understand something scientifically (because, you know, it isn't real) by default puts it "beyond scientific understanding".

If we are to accept that Farren's reasoning for what Phyz is saying is true, all it would take is one instance of the Vishanti ignoring Strange's request for help to invalidate it and one being choosing to deny another's request happens every day. I asked my father for money when I was a kid. Sometimes he said yes, sometimes he said no. No scientific understanding necessary.

 

[seahammer]

The problem is that this is, itself, contradictory. If your altering physical law, that's still a phenomenon that can be observed, measured, and quantified. That means its subject to science. There is no "beyond scientific understanding." There is only "beyond current scientific knowledge", which is always changing itself. And all it takes for science to begin understanding something is "is a detectable phenomenon."

Which is why trying to define "magic" as "that which is impossible for science to understand" is a useless definition. Something impossible for science to understand is something impossible for *humanity* to understand, because all science is, is organized human understanding.

The thing is, I'm not making things up. This isn't Seahammer's opinion. These are definitions of words:

Magic:
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

Supernatural:
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

Science:
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences. Any branch of the natural or physical science.

I got these from dictionary.com. If you don't see how the two definitions here are contradictory, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Just to be fair, as I said in my last post, I concede that this is just a semantic discussion. Language is subjective, with one word having multiple uses and connotations. I went to the dictionary and chose the definitions that suited my argument (because mama didn't raise no fool). You are sticking to the definitions that fit your argument. I see that, and that's fine. Yes, science can also mean a method of observation and categorization. Fine. But I think *most* people here think of the difference between the two as what I stated above.

Anyway, you seem to be pretty unmovable in your opinions, so I'm going to stop pushing back.

 

[seahammer]

No you're fine, you aren't pushing some weird, meaningless agenda.

Thanks. I'm a new poster around here and I'd rather not post than annoy people....

Feh, Gaiman's just a complete nonsense babbler!

What is so hilarious is he (metaphyz) is arguing for the compatibility betwen something that exists (science) and something that does not (magic). In Harry Potter do we really want to believe that his cloak of invisibility is actually sewn with thousands of nano-sized cameras and projectors as the real-world version is or would we rather accept that it operates on some supernatural level that is beyond the ability of science to explain?

Phyz argues that nothing is beyond scientific understanding though the very fact that you can't understand something scientifically (because, you know, it isn't real) by default puts it "beyond scientific understanding".

If we are to accept that Farren's reasoning for what Phyz is saying is true, all it would take is one instance of the Vishanti ignoring Strange's request for help to invalidate it and one being choosing to deny another's request happens every day. I asked my father for money when I was a kid. Sometimes he said yes, sometimes he said no. No scientific understanding necessary.

Great points.

 

[SpiderCool]

Science is simply the measurement of magic. Fire was once considered magic, and still could be today.

 

[Spider - Man]

Science is simply the measurement of magic. Fire was once considered magic, and still could be today.

Perhaps in the real world. I agree that any real-world phenomena can be explained by science/math. In fact I believe if the answer to everything real lies in mathematics. HOWEVER, in a fantasy environment like comics, magic and science can be antithetical. I've already given my example from Copolla's Dracula where Dracula leaves the room, closes the door and seconds later his shadow which remained behind looking around exits by slithering under the door. That is 100% fantasy magic that cannot (nor SHOULD it be attempted to) be explained by science. If you want a more 'scientific' example, let's say that to prove phyz wrong all you have to do is take a scientific law and then paint a fictional scenario where that law is broken via the vehicle of magic, i.e.: something that cannot be explained by science by the mere fact that it opposes a scientific law. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that "the entropy of a closed system never decreases". A story in which on old rusted piece of metal is placed in a room where the metal DE-oxidizes is all that is necessary to disprove phyz's position in a fantasy environment. So would a ball rolling up hill with no natural force affecting it (i.e.: gravity, electromagnetism, wind, etc.). Magnetic bars that attract no matter which ends are placed together. These are things which could only take place within a fantasy setting. And a Dr. Strange movie would most definitely take place in a fantasy environment so his magic could and most definitely SHOULD be unexplainable by scientific means.

 

[Destructus86]

OK, don't hate...but you all remember that Nicoles Cage movie where he's a wizard in modern day?

That's actually how I would like to see them do Dr. Strange.

 

[Endeavor]

Uhmm.. No

 

[gkokujin]

*resists urge to go on another 'magic and science are not diametric' rant*

Okay, you get the rant:

Science is not "uses a physical tool powered by electricity." Science is "the study of the world around you, by actually testing to see what the world around you does." Nothing about hand-waving magic casting places it outside the boundaries of scientific understand. All it is, is another field of phenomena that doesn't have a current good scientific understanding. . . which puts it on par with a lot of other non "magical" stuff.

So basically, when you say "I don't want any science in my magic!", you are babbling complete and utter nonsense. Unless your particular type of magic is completely random and unpredictable, or undetectable to the point of nonexistence, then it *is* subject to scientific inquiry and understanding. Even if it hasn't actually been discovered by anybody inclined to subject it to scientific inquiry yet.

yeah you shoulda resisted...

 

[LaughingMage]

I'll leave it to our friend Neil Gaiman to define the difference between science and magic:

Science is a way of talking about the universe in words that bind it to a common reality. Magic is a method of talking to the universe in words that it cannot ignore. The two are rarely compatible.

Wow, this is brilliant. There is literally NO sense in this sentence. It's completely devoid of any meaning. It's like a string of fake pearls. Words attached to each other which do not really amount to anything, yet sound really really profound and meaningful. As a literary device I like it. Takes a good writer to manage such a thing. ^^ oh, I got another one,“Magic is like telling such a convincing lie that the universe itself believes it is the truth."

 

[LaughingMage]

On magic: I really would like for this movie to break the mold, so to speak, when it comes to its depiction of magic. Not just two people standing around waving their hands. I'd really like for it to be a lot more physical. More like how magic is applied in Asian movies. Very much Kung Fu magic. It would fit quite well with Dr. Strange's training by an Asian mystic that his magic should mirror that cultures approach.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Fantasy