What The Hell Happened To Christianity?

[Armand Z Trip]

The neo-cons got ahold of it, that's what.

jag

Exactly! What the hell happened to chrsitianity in this country is that conservatives have twisted people's faith into headlines and wedge issues based on fear and hatred. They have used people for power and profit. The right wing was assured of Christian conservative votes, taking credit for the elections of President George W. Bush (well one election, one supreme court appointment). Cracks in the facade have appeared however, and maybe what we are seeing now is a grassroots christian backlash.

For example, the Chrisitan Coalition's donations fell from 26.5 million in 1996 to 3 million in 2000, they then capped off 2001 with a racial discrimination lawsuit. In 04 their lawyers sued for unpaid fees.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4307

Going into the important mid term elections conservative christians were confronted with one of their evangelical leaders being accused of smoking meth and having sex with a gay prostitute. Our President summed up the mid terms by saying in his dulcet tones and with his noble articulation - we got a thumpin! 11/30/06 and the new head of the Chrisitian Coalition resigned for suggesting the organization focussed more on helping the poor and less on bashing gays, we can still gay bash, but let's just turn it down a little.

http://www.abpnews.com/1537.article

It reminds me of the Douglas Adams bit, planet Earth, where 2000 years ago a man was nailed to a tree for saying, hey, let's all be nice to each other for a change. I think a lot of christian Americans are thinking what young Mr. Bakker says in the article, enough is enough. There are progressive christians who want the ship to change course.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-rigby/real-christians-dont-gay_b_24884.html

It's like Malcolm X said in his autobiography, christians never come at you like their saviour; meek, humble, christlike, it's always you're wrong, you're damned, you suck. In the book I remember Elijah Muhammad apparently offered Malcolm X two glasses of water, one of them dirty, one clean. People will always take the clean glass of water, enough yelling at people their glass of water is dirty.

A lot of these upper class christians, we can see they have a clean SUV, I mean glass of water; stop yelling at people who don't look and think like you! (By the way if your wife could smile without Prozac and your kids didn't look like they were about to go on tour with The Transplants - that would help).

In 2004 1.1 million Americans slid into poverty, that is the biggest increase since the last Bush was President.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-30-census-poverty_x.htm

More Americans are going hungry. Well, no one is hungry in America anymore, I think according to the FDA, they have "Food Security Issues". This shocking situation, not a major deal it would seem to either party, screams out for some christian love and charity, it seems to be the reason for articles like What the Hell Happened to Christianity? How about a new war on poverty over the war on christmas? Less mega chruches and profits, more love and charity. I hope this is where christianity in this country is heading.

 

[twylight]

The most interesting thing about the articale and what the thread has morphed into is "What is the acceptance level of Christians?"

The article tells us to be open minded, and accepting, but where does it stop? Sooner or later the rules and guidelines in the Bible have to apply, where do you draw that line?

Obviously Christianity can't accept any other religions as true as their own if they believe that Jesus is the only way. Accepting a belief that by-passes that, which is what the Bible says would be a flaw in the belief structure they believe in.

There is a line. I don't think that article was saying that Christians should compromise their belief structure to allow and condone acceptance and understanding.
The article was pointing out that Christians shouldn't be the ones to condem or shut-out people. It's about being open and accepting to those who themselves are open and accepting. There was a saying I heard a while ago,

"Christians aren't called to be judges, or lawyers, they're called to be witnesses, and as such their testemonies and lives should speak for themselves, without having to prove or argue anything."

 

[raybia]

Hmm...
Im thinking im going to have to take Memphis Slim's side in this.

Somebody was bound to.

I must have missed his posts that are making everyone think he has anti muslim issues.

If after reading his post, you are unable to see his bias and prejudice towards Islam and Muslims then I have to question your senses and sensibilities.

Maybe you can explain why Islam and Muslims became the focal point of this thread when neither the article nor I made mention of it.

Maybe you can also tell us which poster did.



If you are in one religion and believe in one God, then you are in one religion and you believe in that one God.

Ok, I agree with that.

Yes everyones entitled to their own opinions and their own faiths, but in order to just believe in one faith, you must deep down know that their other faiths are wrong.

Here is where I disagree with you.

First, the faith that I choose is what I prefer...for ME. In no way do I think that every faith other than mine cannot give that person the things they want and need for themselves to bring them peace and happiness.

Second, it is not necessary to validate one's religious beliefs by discounting all others.

I have a solid knowledge and understanding of my faith but there are many others that I know nothing of.

Are ALL of those religions wrong?

How would I know until I study ALL of them?

Nor am I going to do that. That would take away from other areas of study and concentration.

Plus, who am I to say, "My religion is right and yours is wrong?" Proof it!

I either choose to accept it or choose to reject it as a guiding force for MY personal life.

Thirdly, Are you so insecure about your belief system that have to declare that all others are wrong before you can feel good about what you choose to believe in? I have family members who are Christian who I know for a fact are very upright people with a strong moral and ethical character and every ounce of my faith tells me that they will be blessed with Heaven one day.

I will not let absolutes cause me to be so intolerate to tell good people that in spite of their good character and actions, YOU are wrong, because I'm right.

Thats a fanatic.


I'm not saying people can't take elements from different religions and tolerate them and even learn from them.

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe Jesus was the son of a god, but I can't argue that his teachings havn't helped a lot of peoples lives and helped to shape our society in a positive way.

Agree, so if this is the case, then please explain how they are WRONG?.

Christianity has helped a lot of people and been a big positive influence, but as an Atheist i can confidetly say, that deep down I know that theyre wrong and that I belive most faiths come from people wanting to belong or from people using them to try and control people.

Deep down, you THINK they are wrong but proof that to them and to all of us. That is why its best to keep those sentiments to yourself and not disclose them.

Yes, religion has been a tool for control of the masses, but there are many tools that those who conspire against mankind have used. Communism is a secular idea that has been used to control the masses too. That doesn't make religion evil, but those who twist religion in order to oppress and exploit are the evil ones.

I'm not saying people arent entitled to their own religions, I'm not saying that I can't learn a lot from their religions that can help me with my life, but im saying, as an Atheist I can admit that I know theyre wrong.

No disrespect, but since you cannot prove that WE are all wrong and since my faith and trust is in G-d and not you, your declaration of what is true or not, has no meaning for me nor the 6 billion people on Earth who believe in some type of Divine being.

Thats what faith is.

If I didn't know I was right, that would just make me an Agnostic and not a true Atheist at all. If I said that I can still understand and accept other peoples religiongs anyway, id be being two faced.

You don't have to accept other religions, but you have to accept that people follow religions other than Atheism.


As for the Afterlife.. there either is an afterlife, or there isnt. Somebodies wrong. Even if you have a different alternative of what happens in the afterlife then that still falls in to the "belief in an afterlife" category, which will be wrong if there actually isnt an afterlife.

Well, again, we have to agree to disagree. One day and one day soon, the truth will be known to all.

If I'm wrong as you so believe, and there is no G-d, the tell me,

"WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR MY BELIEF AND FAITH IN G-D,?"

In other words, what do I have to lose especially when I have gained so much from it?

If you are right, then I will never know that I was wrong anyway, since according to you, there is no afterlife.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Jesus was totally hands off with regards to politics.
If the government's taxing you to death, he said, "Just pay them." and "Don't worry about storing up money here on Earth, store up wealth in Heaven."

They wanted a Messiah who would overthrow Rome and he didn't want anything to do with that. He wanted us to focus on our personal spirituality and to personally care for others without thinking of ourselves.

And we all know that he was criticized for hanging out with ****es and criminals.

If Jesus was alive today, the majority of "Christians" would think he was a nut-ball.
I can't think of a single Christian on Earth who would "turn the other cheek" and most of them would not, while being robbed at gun point of their wallet, offer the theif their coat as well.

 

[raybia]

The article tells us to be open minded, and accepting, but where does it stop?

You stop at the point where there is a violate of the laws of the land, it begins to impede on your civil and human rights.

Sooner or later the rules and guidelines in the Bible have to apply, where do you draw that line?

You draw the line at not doing anything or accepting anything that would compromise your personal religious beliefs. The rules and guidelines in the Bible only apply towards those who have personally accepted Christianity as a religion.

Since we live in a country that gives us religious freedom, we get to choose which book (if any) that dicates our lives.
I

Obviously Christianity can't accept any other religions as true as their own if they believe that Jesus is the only way.

Even if that is true, so what? I don't need for it to. That only apply to those who believe that, there are billions of others that don't.

Accepting a belief that by-passes that, which is what the Bible says would be a flaw in the belief structure they believe in.

If you mean that accepting a false belief by adapting it into one's own life is true. But people have no choose by to accept that there are others who hold different beliefs.


"Christians aren't called to be judges, or lawyers, they're called to be witnesses, and as such their testemonies and lives should speak for themselves, without having to prove or argue anything."

Agree.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Obviously Christianity can't accept any other religions as true as their own if they believe that Jesus is the only way.

Even if that is true, so what? I don't need for it to. That only apply to those who believe that, there are billions of others that don't.

Yeah, Defenso...but this is a thread about Christianity, saying that Christians should be more tolerant. She's responding to that. She wasn't talking about your beliefs.
So don't say "So what?"
Th^t's what.

 

[twylight]

Agree.

I don't think you really understood what I was saying.

I wasn't saying that christians should go bomb people they don't agree with, *I actually think it goes against New Testament teachings*, but there is a point where Christians should be able say "No, I'm sorry, you're religion is wrong according to my beliefs."

This doesn't mean they then go beat the person up, but it's a way of acknowledging their faith and accepting that they have no control over the other person's choices.

 

[bored]

I think that's what Raybia was agreeing with.

 

[raybia]

I feel its a legitimate question. I wasn't attempting to belittle her response.

Plus I find the belief that Christianity cannot accept other religions as true (Please prove this statment) peculiar and intolerant since Jesus Christ was a Jew. His Disciples and Apostles were Jews. The early church consisted of Jews. The people who had come to worship in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost following Christ's ascension were Jews.

Jesus is quoted as saying that he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

That doesn't sound like a man you was declaring that Judaism was wrong but that the Jews at that time were were for not comforming to their religion.

 

[jaguarr]

Hmm...
Im thinking im going to have to take Memphis Slim's side in this. I must have missed his posts that are making everyone think he has anti muslim issues.

He's a banned poster named celldog who has a very well documented agenda of hatred for Muslims. He turns nearly every religious thread into an attack on them, just as he's not so subtly done here. Search his old username if you don't believe me.

jag

 

[kainedamo]

Are we sure it's Celldog? If it's Celldog, he should be perma-banned. He shouldn't be using multiple accounts for his agenda.

 

[raybia]

I don't think you really understood what I was saying.

I wasn't saying that christians should go bomb people they don't agree with, *I actually think it goes against New Testament teachings*, but there is a point where Christians should be able say "No, I'm sorry, you're religion is wrong according to my beliefs."

This doesn't mean they then go beat the person up, but it's a way of acknowledging their faith and accepting that they have no control over the other person's choices.

I understand and I agree with what you are saying here.

I would though, personally prefer more tact in someone who thinks my particular religion is wrong. Because other religious groups can rebuttal right back and say, "Well, I think your religion is wrong according to my beliefs."

Then, thats that end of the dialogue and both parties could feel somewhat offended.

I interact with non-Muslims all the time and questions are asked about the differences. I explain that there are different beliefs as well as similar or identical ones.

Maybe there are some beliefs in other religions that I feel are wrong, but that is not the language I would use.

But that is just me and how I feel.

 

[SuperFerret]

I agree totally, and the whole "according to what I feel is right, you're wrong" argument is mostly what deterred me from Catholicism, and eventually organized religion as a whole. (The day my mother explained to me that some people believe that Jews go to Hell because they are Jewish changed my life in this manner.) It's fine if you feel that way, but it's in the interest of common courtesy to be polite about it, and that's not even a religious issue.

Personally, I follow my own belief system, and I've purposely designed it to be open-minded (though I have been told 'if you're too open-minded your brain will fall out') about other beliefs. I've also recently been on a 'spiritual journey' of sorts (during which I've considered returning to Christianity, thanks to the help of a good friend), but the answers I came up with, the result of my 'quest', led me to return to what I originally believe.

 

[kainedamo]

I agree totally, and the whole "according to what I feel is right, you're wrong" argument is mostly what deterred me from Catholicism, and eventually organized religion as a whole. (The day my mother explained to me that some people believe that Jews go to Hell because they are Jewish changed my life in this manner.) It's fine if you feel that way, but it's in the interest of common courtesy to be polite about it, and that's not even a religious issue.

Personally, I follow my own belief system, and I've purposely designed it to be open-minded (though I have been told 'if you're too open-minded your brain will fall out') about other beliefs. I've also recently been on a 'spiritual journey' of sorts (during which I've considered returning to Christianity, thanks to the help of a good friend), but the answers I came up with, the result of my 'quest', led me to return to what I originally believe.

There are times where I think maybe I need spirituality or spiritual guidance. But I can't force myself to believe in God. And I don't agree with so much that religous leaders preach. If I don't think God is there, then I don't think he is there and I don't think there is anything that can change my mind. So instead of worrying about my soul, I'm going to concentrate on my mind and body. Love your mind. Love your body. It's a good philosophy, I think.

 

[Taiwarriorz21]

I didn't say Christinaity was the problem Einstein, I said the GOP co-opting Christianity for their ends is the problem. Pay attention!

The GOP have tried to turn Christianity to something completely different for their own selfish ends (in the GOP version of Christianity, I guess Jesus believes poor people are lazy and never helps them.) Why do you think its okay for the GOP co-opt Christinaity?

My bad I thought you were bashing Christianity. My mistake. Sorry Dude.

 

[Taiwarriorz21]

Christianity is a messed up religion in my book. 40% of the money they get from collections actually go to help people, and the money they use to help is spent on buying Bibles for people who live in Ethiopia or some developing country like that, to convert them, not to help. They're real *******s about the who Harry Potter books because it is against their religion, so they try to get it banned because it offends them. What kind of mind-**** is that?


Honestly I could lable some sects of the Christainity as terrorist organizations(evangelicals and born-agains), because people in those groups either bomb/ or support the bombing of abortion clinics.

I am a CHRISTIAN. I have seen all the Harry Potter Movies. It doesn't bother me b/c it is made-up. The Christians that are against it are the radicals/ non-denomiational groups. I went to one of those school and I dont like how radical they are. I love God...Our churchs: buy food for the homeless, go on mission trips to places such as Boston, Dallas, Santa Monica California, Ft Walton Beach Florida, and also International Mission Trips such as Campo Grande Brazil, Panama, Peru, Pakistan, Kazakstan, Australia, Canada, and soo on. I've been on about 6 U.S. Mission Trips, and 1 International Mission Trip to Campo Grande, Brazil.

 

[SuperFerret]

I am a CHRISTIAN. I have seen all the Harry Potter Movies. It doesn't bother me b/c it is made-up. The Christians that are against it are the radicals/ non-denomiational groups. I went to one of those school and I dont like how radical they are. I love God...Our churchs: buy food for the homeless, go on mission trips to places such as Boston, Dallas, Santa Monica California, Ft Walton Beach Florida, and also International Mission Trips such as Campo Grande Brazil, Panama, Peru, Pakistan, Kazakstan, Australia, Canada, and soo on. I've been on about 6 U.S. Mission Trips, and 1 International Mission Trip to Campo Grande, Brazil.

It's always the worst that give the rest of any given community a bad name. Just look at many stereotypes, the Muslim terrorist, the greedy Jew, or the 'holier-than-thou' hyper-conservative Christian. These people exist, they're just not the norm.

 

[twylight]

It's always the worst that give the rest of any given community a bad name. Just look at many stereotypes, the Muslim terrorist, the greedy Jew, or the 'holier-than-thou' hyper-conservative Christian. These people exist, they're just not the norm.

And for the most part the only reason you do hear about them is because they are out of the norm and crazy.

 

[twylight]

I understand and I agree with what you are saying here.

I would though, personally prefer more tact in someone who thinks my particular religion is wrong. Because other religious groups can rebuttal right back and say, "Well, I think your religion is wrong according to my beliefs."

Then, thats that end of the dialogue and both parties could feel somewhat offended.

I interact with non-Muslims all the time and questions are asked about the differences. I explain that there are different beliefs as well as similar or identical ones.

Maybe there are some beliefs in other religions that I feel are wrong, but that is not the language I would use.

But that is just me and how I feel.

Well then.

For any religion they'll think religions that are different are wrong. Mostly it's the way the teachings of the religion are. I see no reason in being accepting, but accepting to the point that you somehow undermine the faith and beliefs that you believe in then you've gone past tolerance and into changing your belief structure.

That's my take anyway, and everyone was going on about how Christians should be more accepting, and the article didn't point out what I thought was an important point of still standing by your beliefs.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I feel its a legitimate question. I wasn't attempting to belittle her response.

Plus I find the belief that Christianity cannot accept other religions as true (Please prove this statment) peculiar and intolerant since Jesus Christ was a Jew. His Disciples and Apostles were Jews. The early church consisted of Jews. The people who had come to worship in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost following Christ's ascension were Jews.

Jesus is quoted as saying that he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

That doesn't sound like a man you was declaring that Judaism was wrong but that the Jews at that time were were for not comforming to their religion.

If you have never read a book of the New Testament, then this post is understandable and I won't have a stroke.

PREPOSTEROUS!

I......I could go on and on and on quoting hundreds of verses where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light. NO man comes to the father but by ME." and that "He who is not for me is against me." and that he was the God of Abraham and created the world and that the ONLY way a man can be saved is if he is born again through Jesus' (God made flesh) sacrifice on the cross.

That......dude, I have some respect for you, but......you can't just post outright falsehoods in ignorance.
The Bible is a.B.O.U.T. God ordering the Jews to kill all their neighbors for worshipping other Gods, the Jews being horribly punished for worshipping other Gods, and then Jesus comes and condemns the Pharisees, the Saducees and calls them a viper's brood, whips the people in the Temple and says he is the son of God who came to Earth for the redemption of our sins and that Whosever believes that shall not perish but have everlasting life.

What. Are. You. TALKING. about?!?!?

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

I don't think you really understood what I was saying.

I wasn't saying that christians should go bomb people they don't agree with, *I actually think it goes against New Testament teachings*, but there is a point where Christians should be able say "No, I'm sorry, you're religion is wrong according to my beliefs."

This doesn't mean they then go beat the person up, but it's a way of acknowledging their faith and accepting that they have no control over the other person's choices.

no they should'nt. its her/his belief but no one has the right to claim someone's religion as wrong in defense of thier own. your belief is your belief, disagree with others if ya want. but really no one has the right to say another persons religion is wrong. since its all a belief system anyways.

 

[raybia]

Well then.

For any religion they'll think religions that are different are wrong. Mostly it's the way the teachings of the religion are. I see no reason in being accepting, but accepting to the point that you somehow undermine the faith and beliefs that you believe in then you've gone past tolerance and into changing your belief structure.

That's my take anyway, and everyone was going on about how Christians should be more accepting, and the article didn't point out what I thought was an important point of still standing by your beliefs.

I agree. You cannot compromise your morals and values nor do I think its necessary to do this in order to be tolerant of others.

 

[raybia]

If you have never read a book of the New Testament, then this post is understandable and I won't have a stroke.

PREPOSTEROUS!

I......I could go on and on and on quoting hundreds of verses where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light. NO man comes to the father but by ME." and that "He who is not for me is against me." and that he was the God of Abraham and created the world and that the ONLY way a man can be saved is if he is born again through Jesus' (God made flesh) sacrifice on the cross.

That......dude, I have some respect for you, but......you can't just post outright falsehoods in ignorance.
The Bible is a.B.O.U.T. God ordering the Jews to kill all their neighbors for worshipping other Gods, the Jews being horribly punished for worshipping other Gods, and then Jesus comes and condemns the Pharisees, the Saducees and calls them a viper's brood, whips the people in the Temple and says he is the son of God who came to Earth for the redemption of our sins and that Whosever believes that shall not perish but have everlasting life.

What. Are. You. TALKING. about?!?!?

I think my post was very clear and doesn't need further elaboration. What outright falsehoods did I post?

Also, you are explaining your understanding about the bible and those particular scriptures. Very few people have the exact same interpretation. Why should yours be taken above anyone elses?

 

[twylight]

no they should'nt. its her/his belief but no one has the right to claim someone's religion as wrong in defense of thier own. your belief is your belief, disagree with others if ya want. but really no one has the right to say another persons religion is wrong. since its all a belief system anyways.

Going along that line, you have no right to say the War in Iraq is 'wrong', because some people 'believe' it to be right and you have no right to say it's wrong.


You have no right to say that voting Democratic is wrong, because you believe it to be wrong.


So..where does it stop?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I think my post was very clear and doesn't need further elaboration. What outright falsehoods did I post?

Also, you are explaining your understanding about the bible and those particular scriptures. Very few people have the exact same interpretation. Why should yours be taken above anyone elses?

"very few people" ????
You are a d00zy today.
...and an eclipse is when a dragon eats the moon, yes.

X 1,000,000,000


How many times have you read the Bible?