BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[souperman]

I think there are arcs in the film, just maybe not a big an arc as people expected, but Batman in particular has a change of heart at the end. This is not an arc?

BvS is not a single stand alone movie. Snyder and WB is looking at this as one episode in a larger story. It is a day in the life of...

I don't think Indiana Jones had much of a character arc in the first film. He started out and ended the film the same. We understood his character as much as we understand Batman.

Maybe it's a mistake, maybe not. I don't mind it. I am enjoying the building process.

Also, being these iconic characters they don't need "as much" arc, we now where they are going...for the most part.

 

[javonstokess]

Batman has a pretty clear arc regarding his "Descent into madness", and his growing obsession/intensity of his drive as a result. He does not start the film wanting to kill Superman with a Kryptonite spear.

His "Descent into madness" made no sense.

It got even worse when he literally sees evidence of Lex Luthor being the real criminal but ignores it to go after Superman because... reasons, I guess?

 

[iamsilvio]

I think there are arcs in the film, just maybe not a big an arc as people expected, but Batman in particular has a change of heart at the end. This is not an arc?

BvS is not a single stand alone movie. Snyder and WB is looking at this as one episode in a larger story. It is a day in the life of...

I don't think Indiana Jones had much of a character arc in the first film. He started out and ended the film the same. We understood his character as much as we understand Batman.

Maybe it's a mistake, maybe not. I don't mind it. I am enjoying the building process.

Also, being these iconic characters they don't need "as much" arc, we now where they are going...for the most part.

The problem with your explanation is that BvS removed large chunks that may or may not prove to be vital to clarity of the story. If they were holding over those scenes for another film then I would understand what you were saying about seeing BvS as a single episode. But that does not seem to be the case...

 

[Loki882]

Also what little arcs there are, are very poorly done. For example, I kind of doubt that they'll go back and provide additional scenes to explain Batman's madness here in future films, they'll likely just move on from it.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Just ignore it all together. Because nobody is going to miss it. Why waste time on even addressing and fixing something that was bad while you could just move on and do what's right for the character and focus on that? It's much more productive.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

The movie we got had everything to be a really great film. Even with Wonder Woman and Doomsday. It just needed a serious polish. Like SERIOUS. Your idea is pretty at times, but it completely undermines quite powerful ending. Superman's sacrifice and funeral. Superman becomes literally NOTHING in your version. Zero impact on anything, but Batman's feeling about himself. JL establishment motive is really weak too.

Actually Superman's death in BVS means nothing to me when I saw it. I own the Death of Superman comic book (and still have it from the day it's released) and this movie just crapped on that excellent storyline by making his death meaningless and devoid of emotion. We only got introduced to Superman in the previous movie and barely had time to connect with him as character. Seeing him dying and knowing that he'll be back very soon really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Death of Superman should have been in MOS 2, with cameo from the Justice League members to heighten the emotional aspect of the scene, not something that happened in the last 10 mins of the movie.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

The sacrifice meant nothing

 

[hellified]

If nothing this flick actually proved that batman really doesn't belong in justice league...that he can't hang with super powered beings (no matter how prepared).

Bruce was essentially in ironman type armor and STILL had nothing to bring to the table. Even with kryptonite he barely hurt superman even if he did kill him how would he fight wonder woman if he had to?

At best his presence in the league is as the only fully HUMAN representative but look at that final battle scene....Superman went AT doomsday..Wonderwoman went AT doomsday with a SMILE on her face.. the BEST batman could do was be a distraction and bait. They missed ONE opportunity in that scene to show it...like doomsday shoots a blast of energy at them and Batman flies into wonderwoman who catches him and says "your in my way!" places him to the side and goes straight at DD without hesitation...

This SHOULD be addressed in the Justice League movie...if not its a HUGE omission.

These are issues that can be hashed out on screen in a decent way but just shows the dramatic imbalance on the team..if theres a threat that needs superman ww and other superpowered beings to deal with then batman is useless in a battle. And if theres some issue that batman and green arrow can do then supes, ww and flash are overkill...itd be like bringing in a ICBM missile to knockdown a door on a shack.

What batman DOES bring to the table that the others may not is superb investigative skills and being rich gives him quiet access to areas no one else get into as their alter egos. But that reduces his appearances in the justice league stories to supporting roles.

Marvel gave a wink at this with hawkeye and black widow but DC can actually address it.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

If nothing this flick actually proved that batman really doesn't belong in justice league...that he can't hang with super powered beings (no matter how prepared).

Bruce was essentially in ironman type armor and STILL had nothing to bring to the table. Even with kryptonite he barely hurt superman even if he did kill him how would he fight wonder woman if he had to?

At best his presence in the league is as the only fully HUMAN representative but look at that final battle scene....Superman went AT doomsday..Wonderwoman went AT doomsday with a SMILE on her face.. the BEST batman could do was be a distraction and bait. They missed ONE opportunity in that scene to show it...like doomsday shoots a blast of energy at them and Batman flies into wonderwoman who catches him and says "your in my way!" places him to the side and goes straight at DD without hesitation...

This SHOULD be addressed in the Justice League movie...if not its a HUGE omission.

These are issues that can be hashed out on screen in a decent way but just shows the dramatic imbalance on the team..if theres a threat that needs superman ww and other superpowered beings to deal with then batman is useless in a battle. And if theres some issue that batman and green arrow can do then supes, ww and flash are overkill...itd be like bringing in a ICBM missile to knockdown a door on a shack.

What batman DOES bring to the table that the others may not is superb investigative skills and being rich gives him quiet access to areas no one else get into as their alter egos. But that reduces his appearances in the justice league stories to supporting roles.

Marvel gave a wink at this with hawkeye and black widow but DC can actually address it.

Exactly my reaction when I was watching the Trinity battling Doomsday. I kept wondering what the hell was Batman doing, running away from DD's eye beams like some scared little kid. People pointed it out that he was simply luring DD to where the Kryptonite spear was at, but he didn't do anything to try to retrieve it, nor was he there arguing with Superman on who would be best at using the spear. Nope. All I've seen was this human who realized how powerless and puny he was without his kryptonite gadgets and ran away as fast as he could. It gave me doubt on how he's going to handle Darkseid at all. I mean he barely escaped those eye-beams coming from DD and Darkseid's Omega Beam is like 100 times better.

 

[hellified]

Exactly my reaction when I was watching the Trinity battling Doomsday. I kept wondering what the hell was Batman doing, running away from DD's eye beams like some scared little kid. People pointed it out that he was simply luring DD to where the Kryptonite spear was at, but he didn't do anything to try to retrieve it, nor was he there arguing with Superman on who would be best at using the spear. Nope. All I've seen was this human who realized how powerless and puny he was without his kryptonite gadgets and ran away as fast as he could. It gave me doubt on how he's going to handle Darkseid at all. I mean he barely escaped those eye-beams coming from DD and Darkseid's Omega Beam is like 100 times better.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Exactly my reaction when I was watching the Trinity battling Doomsday. I kept wondering what the hell was Batman doing, running away from DD's eye beams like some scared little kid. People pointed it out that he was simply luring DD to where the Kryptonite spear was at, but he didn't do anything to try to retrieve it, nor was he there arguing with Superman on who would be best at using the spear. Nope. All I've seen was this human who realized how powerless and puny he was without his kryptonite gadgets and ran away as fast as he could. It gave me doubt on how he's going to handle Darkseid at all. I mean he barely escaped those eye-beams coming from DD and Darkseid's Omega Beam is like 100 times better.

So true, Batman was useless at the end. He's just sort of hanging out until he's 100 yards away and shoots doomsday with the kryptonite mist. Also, was it just me or was the trinity money shot very anticlimactic?

 

[JtheDreamer]

So true, Batman was useless at the end. He's just sort of hanging out until he's 100 yards away and shoots doomsday with the kryptonite mist. Also, was it just me or was the trinity money shot very anticlimactic?

 

[The Guard]

I figured the movie was trying to show Batman was out of his depth. There are multiple moments like that, during the fight with Superman, the "Oh, S***" moment, getting shot out of the sky, and being simply outmatched by Doomsday.

He was out of his depth, and that's probably going to be part of his arc in the Justice League films, getting to the point where he can hold his own with superhumans.

He was still fairly effective. He was instrumental in stopping Doomsday at the end of the fight.

 

[Flint Marko]

So true, Batman was useless at the end. He's just sort of hanging out until he's 100 yards away and shoots doomsday with the kryptonite mist. Also, was it just me or was the trinity money shot very anticlimactic?

It wasn't just you. It looked bad in the trailers even before we knew the movie was a dud.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Batman has a pretty clear arc regarding his "Descent into madness", and his growing obsession/intensity of his drive as a result. He does not start the film wanting to kill Superman with a Kryptonite spear.

Literally everything he does in the beginning of the film is to find Kryptonite to make a weapon against superman. Somehow lex writing Bruce notes and Bruce seeing the building blow up (which was explained in-universe as not being Supes' fault) is what set him off. There's no arc there.

 

[metaphysician]

He'd have done a better job of BvS than Snyder.

Yeah, that's it, I went THERE.

Not only that, but he generally has a more upbeat tone, too. Sure, the writing is terrible and there's a varyingly large amount of casual ( unintended? ) racism and sexism. It would still be a major improvement.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

I figured the movie was trying to show Batman was out of his depth. There are multiple moments like that, during the fight with Superman, the "Oh, S***" moment, getting shot out of the sky, and being simply outmatched by Doomsday.

He was out of his depth, and that's probably going to be part of his arc in the Justice League films, getting to the point where he can hold his own with superhumans.

He was still fairly effective. He was instrumental in stopping Doomsday at the end of the fight.

So much for being a master strategist then huh? I mean those Kryptonite mist he shot at DD would have done absolutely nothing without Superman's sacrifice. Did Batman shoot that mist because he already knew Superman will use the spear on DD? If so I find that hard to believe.

 

[The Guard]

So much for being a master strategist then huh? I mean those Kryptonite mist he shot at DD would have done absolutely nothing without Superman's sacrifice. Did Batman shoot that mist because he already knew Superman will use the spear on DD? If so I find that hard to believe.

No, he shot the Kryptonite mist because Doomsday was about to "evolve" again, and he knew there was no way they could even hope to control him if he did. Wonder Woman was already having serious issues doing so.

And it's a last ditch effort. Batman's reaction makes that pretty much obvious.

A master strategist who has one bullet picks the right moment, which Batman absolutely did.

What exactly would you have liked him to do given the circumstances?

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The Knightmare sequence clearly impacts Bruce's concerns about Superman going rogue, and also informs his decision to try to find the other metahumans as a way to honor Superman's legacy. And seeing as how Bruce's issues with Superman are part of the main narrative, then yes, the Justice League stuff is absolutely woven into it in a key way, because it is the main narrative's resolution.

The entire film...the ENTIRE film is woven together in such a manner. Everything builds on everything that came before. It's incredibly well structured, and I suspect if the pacing issues are resolved with the Director's Cut, people will start to see that.

How exactly did that sequence "impact Bruce's concerns about Superman going rogue"? Those concerns existed after the end of Man of Steel. The film establishes that with putting Bruce right on the streets of Metropolis as it was going down. I didn't see how the knightmare sequence impacted that one way or the other.

I am not sure I'd call this movie "well structured", Guard. But we obviously see this movie differently.

 

[Jaxon]

The sacrifice meant nothing

Except for the fact that it inspired the whole planet.


Supes redeems Batman
Supes redeems the world.

Supes will redeem your cold heart one day.

 

[The Guard]

How exactly did that sequence "impact Bruce's concerns about Superman going rogue"? Those concerns existed after the end of Man of Steel. The film establishes that with putting Bruce right on the streets of Metropolis as it was going down. I didn't see how the knightmare sequence impacted that one way or the other.

I am not sure I'd call this movie "well structured", Guard. But we obviously see this movie differently.

You're asking me how the nightmare about Superman actually going rogue impacts or informs Batman's fears about Superman going rogue?

 

[metaphysician]

I can't wait until Film Crit Hulk gets around to this.

This. It will be glorious.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

No, he shot the Kryptonite mist because Doomsday was about to "evolve" again, and he knew there was no way they could even hope to control him if he did. Wonder Woman was already having serious issues doing so.

And it's a last ditch effort. Batman's reaction makes that pretty much obvious.

A master strategist who has one bullet picks the right moment, which Batman absolutely did.

What exactly would you have liked him to do given the circumstances?

They only won because of the spear, not because of the mist. By the time Batman shot his mist at DD, DD was already beyond control even with the lasso on It. Shooting DD with the mist will not defeat him, neither with lassoing. If it did then Superman sacrificed for nothing, but if what you said is true then Batman was only delaying the inevitable because neither him nor WW anticipated the spear attack by Superman since he didn't have the chance to inform them yet.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Except for the fact that it inspired the whole planet.


Supes redeems Batman
Supes redeems the world.

Supes will redeem your cold heart one day.

Lol

 

[The Guard]

They only won because of the spear, not because of the mist. By the time Batman shot his mist at DD, DD was already beyond control even with the lasso on It. Shooting DD with the mist will not defeat him, neither with lassoing. If it did then Superman sacrificed for nothing, but if what you said is true then Batman was only delaying the inevitable because neither him nor WW anticipated the spear attack by Superman since he didn't have the chance to inform them yet.

Nope. Doomaday is about to evolve again when Batman fires the grenade. The Kryptonite weakens Doomsday. This allows Wonder Woman to hold Doomsdays arms down a little longer, which allows Superman to stab Doomsday.