BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 3

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]513267[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]512179[/split]

 

[Timebomb]

Oh and before anybody brings up the below defenses.
1. I know exactly what the movie was trying to accomplish it just didn't work for me.
2. Other studios and their films have no bearing in this conversation. BVS is its own big blockbuster movie and succeeds or fails on its own merits.
Yes it appears we are at the point where I have to preemptively mention the above.

 

[jmc]

There is a scene in there where a woman tells Clarke that "A man like that (Batman) is only stopped by fists". Now, you can claim that the premise still is weak- I have nothing to say about that- it's personal opinion. But the Extended Cut addresses this issue.

You're right, it is weak. It doesn't excuse the fact that the only way you get these two to fight in this film is if you prevent Superman from saying anything. Again, he had no time to be pissing around with Batman due to his mother's life being on the line. It makes no logical sense for Superman to be engaging in a fight he doesn't want, and yet he does. Batman threw the first punch and Superman retaliated. It basically amounts to childish reasons why Superman fights Batman, and yet all the while his mother is minutes away from being killed. He conveniently seems to forget that. But hey, them fighting is in the movie title, so I guess they ought to fight......

 

[Timebomb]

Let's bring up the scene where the affects of the first kryptonite grenade is wearing off. Your Superman and your mother is in mortal danger. Every second counts. You have all that power deemed useless by this guy in an armored bat suit. There is a change in the fight, a lull. The smart thing once you encounter a weapon that basically makes you mortal is to run away and regroup. It's like what the heck just happened? Or the next thing you would do is end the fight right there and then. Kill Batman, you need to save your mom and Bats won't help. (Granted, this step is out of the question because it's Batman but I am talking about the confines of the movie.)
What does Superman do? He aimlessly continues the fight and falls for the same trick and is moments from dying. How does this help his mom? If Superman's mother is named Rose then both he and his mom are dead. But hey, we needed the Martha scene.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

You're right, it is weak. It doesn't excuse the fact that the only way you get these two to fight in this film is if you prevent Superman from saying anything. Again, he had no time to be pissing around with Batman due to his mother's life being on the line. It makes no logical sense for Superman to be engaging in a fight he doesn't want, and yet he does. Batman threw the first punch and Superman retaliated. It basically amounts to childish reasons why Superman fights Batman, and yet all the while his mother is minutes away from being killed. He conveniently seems to forget that. But hey, them fighting is in the movie title, so I guess they ought to fight......

Agreed. Make no sense. Batman and Superman whole fight just stupid and make no sense.

 

[jmc]

Yep, every second counts, and what does he do? Just continues fighting. I could understanding it if Batman is constantly getting the better of him throughout the fight and Superman only fights back in order to make Batman listen, but that is never the case. He engages in the fight. His mother's wellbeing put on hold for 10 mins in order for him to take part in playground fisticuffs because someone shot at him with something that was the equivalent a rubber band.

 

[ApophènX]

Superman was ready to burn Lex to the ground, when his mother or people he love are at stakes and in danger, he goes blind rage, not unlikely Batman in those moment, in feelings of powerlessness. He wasn't thinking straight, you ever been in a fight for people you love? At one moment, when yoûre threatened to death (hello kryptonite) you don't think straight, you don't think, when he screamed his mother name it wasn't in hope to convice Batman, he is not even thinking about "explaining" anymore, it was a desperate cry for help. That's the emotion, not the name.

When the governor says "democracy works when people talk to each other" it's a premiss of that, like when WW told Bruce "little boys are born with no natural inclination to share", beczuse she sees she has a man still acting like a child, not talking, angry, blinded. She kind of make fun of it. Woamn don't act like pitty warrior who feels insecur, Wonder Woman comes when they are ready to face the greater evil and have stopped their childish combat (even if i think they could have bring her better, i didn't like the plane stuff or the metha human email)

 

[jmc]

Superman was ready to burn Lex to the ground, when his mother or people he love are at stakes and in danger, he goes blind rage, not unlikely Batman in those moment, in feelings of powerlessness. He wasn't thinking straight, you ever been in a fight for people you love? At one moment, when yoûre threatened to death (hello kryptonite) you don't think straight, you don't think, when he screamed his mother name it wasn't in hope to convice Batman, he is not even thinking about "explaining" anymore, it was a desperate cry for help. That's the emotion, not the name.

When the governor says "democracy works when people talk to each other" it's a premiss of that, like when WW told Bruce "little boys are born with no natural inclination to share", beczuse she sees she has a man still acting like a child, not talking, angry, blinded. She kind of make fun of it. Woamn don't act like pitty warrior who feels insecur, Wonder Woman comes when they are ready to face the greater evil and have stopped their childish combat (even if i think they could have bring her better, i didn't like the plane stuff or the metha human email)

If anything he'd be more desperate then for Batman's help.

 

[Logan0327]

while i really liked the Ultimate Edition and i like that they expanded on Africa/bullet side plot but i still feel it was unnecessary since i feel the battle of metropolis was enough for superman to be villainized.It was the main crux why batman has hatred for the man and you had Wallace i think you could of told a more compelling story just dealing with the Black Zero Event and probably would of made the movie shorter since the Africa side plot took up a lot of screen time.

so i would of got rid of Africa side plot and just focused mostly on the backlash on the battle of metropolis

 

[AnneFan]

Supes is attacked about the Metropolis battle enough for my liking via Wallace Keefe. He blames Superman for him losing his legs. Everything else, Africa and the senate destruction, just adds to the pile of scepticism and fear about Superman. More than one incident to make people question their hero.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Superman was ready to burn Lex to the ground, when his mother or people he love are at stakes and in danger, he goes blind rage, not unlikely Batman in those moment, in feelings of powerlessness. He wasn't thinking straight, you ever been in a fight for people you love? At one moment, when yoûre threatened to death (hello kryptonite) you don't think straight, you don't think, when he screamed his mother name it wasn't in hope to convice Batman, he is not even thinking about "explaining" anymore, it was a desperate cry for help. That's the emotion, not the name.

When the governor says "democracy works when people talk to each other" it's a premiss of that, like when WW told Bruce "little boys are born with no natural inclination to share", beczuse she sees she has a man still acting like a child, not talking, angry, blinded. She kind of make fun of it. Woamn don't act like pitty warrior who feels insecur, Wonder Woman comes when they are ready to face the greater evil and have stopped their childish combat (even if i think they could have bring her better, i didn't like the plane stuff or the metha human email)

Well said. Combined with the way Clark's opinion of Batman evolves throughout the movie in UE, Superman's decision to rough Batman up makes complete sense.

 

[Jaxon]

while i really liked the Ultimate Edition and i like that they expanded on Africa/bullet side plot but i still feel it was unnecessary since i feel the battle of metropolis was enough for superman to be villainized.It was the main crux why batman has hatred for the man and you had Wallace i think you could of told a more compelling story just dealing with the Black Zero Event and probably would of made the movie shorter since the Africa side plot took up a lot of screen time.

so i would of got rid of Africa side plot and just focused mostly on the backlash on the battle of metropolis

The destruction of Metropolis has zero effect on Bruce's mind set to Superman. Superman's existence is the issue and how powerless and pointless it makes Bruce's whole life feel. The Metropolis damage and 1% chance speech are his way of justifying to himself that what he's thinking of doing is OK.

 

[The Joker]

Was ApophènX banned for incoherent opinions?

 

[Ovech-king]

Alright, totally loved the movie but still, I found 4 things that i've noticed as far as being let says on the ''error'' side

1) When Diana looks at Bruce during the librairy event the first time, while there is a close up on her you hear Lex starting his monologue but you still SEE him kissing the host.

2) When Superman pass Batman through the floor and then throw him behind him, before Batman land and reload his gun with his 2nd Kryptonite bullet you can see a front shot of Superman already with clenched fists but then the close up of his fist from behind shows him as clenching his fist slowly building to him jumping/flying on Batman

3) When Wonder Woman, bash her bracelets together, the crashed batwing seems (and I guess everyone saw that) to be empty already ... where is Batman?

4) been discussed before, Superman flight from the main fight and land into the kryptonian ship WAY after (instead of 15 seconds later) Batman destroyed everyone at the warehouse

 

[Leenie]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

 

[The Joker]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

No. Especially if you hate the movie.

 

[Timebomb]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

No. It basically just went from BVS, the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad movie to BVS, the terrible, horrible, very bad movie.

 

[Logan0327]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

it depends what you hate about the movie

if you hate the tone,jesse's lex performance,superman dying,the reason they fight,the reason they stop fighting,doomsday,etc. then not gonna make it better for you

but for me i hated the editing,pacing,lack of clark kent,plot holes,incoherency of the Theatrical Cut and all that was completely fixed in the Ultimate Edition

i gave Theatrical Cut a 6/10 and UE a 7.5/10

 

[Micromind]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

UC "improves" story flow, fleshes out character of Clark Kent, Lois Lane and to a certain extent Lex Luthor.

It "feels" like a complete movie instead of scenes assembled to tell a story. The Africa subplot and Senator Finch's scenes are improved too.

 

[Micromind]

You're right, it is weak. It doesn't excuse the fact that the only way you get these two to fight in this film is if you prevent Superman from saying anything. Again, he had no time to be pissing around with Batman due to his mother's life being on the line. It makes no logical sense for Superman to be engaging in a fight he doesn't want, and yet he does. Batman threw the first punch and Superman retaliated. It basically amounts to childish reasons why Superman fights Batman, and yet all the while his mother is minutes away from being killed. He conveniently seems to forget that. But hey, them fighting is in the movie title, so I guess they ought to fight......

Superman already starts by asking Batman to listen to him, Superman says "Bruce, Listen .... I was wrong.. "

Batman is so full of rage and blinded by his mission to kill Superman that he is in no mood to to actually think and listen to what Superman is saying.

If Batman was thinking logically, with a cool head, he would have stopped fighting after hearing the very first sentence, Bats would have thought.. "How does Superman know my name ?" and "Why is is apologizing ?" and "What does he want to say ?"

Bats repeatedly shoots Kryptonite Grenades at Superman thus weakening him and then proceeds to beat him, Super have no choice but to subdue him by force when ever he gets chance.

Superman is not looking to kill him, though I admit one of the movie's flaws is that the fight went on too long.

 

[Lily Adler]

it depends what you hate about the movie

if you hate the tone,jesse's lex performance,superman dying,the reason they fight,the reason they stop fighting,doomsday,etc. then not gonna make it better for you

but for me i hated the editing,pacing,lack of clark kent,plot holes,incoherency of the Theatrical Cut and all that was completely fixed in the Ultimate Edition

i gave Theatrical Cut a 6/10 and UE a 7.5/10

I hated both sides of your reasons.

 

[Logan0327]

^well UE wont make the movie worse lol

 

[jmc]

Superman already starts by asking Batman to listen to him, Superman says "Bruce, Listen .... I was wrong.. "

Batman is so full of rage and blinded by his mission to kill Superman that he is in no mood to to actually think and listen to what Superman is saying.

If Batman was thinking logically, with a cool head, he would have stopped fighting after hearing the very first sentence, Bats would have thought.. "How does Superman know my name ?" and "Why is is apologizing ?" and "What does he want to say ?"

Bats repeatedly shoots Kryptonite Grenades at Superman thus weakening him and then proceeds to beat him, Super have no choice but to subdue him by force when ever he gets chance.

Superman is not looking to kill him, though I admit one of the movie's flaws is that the fight went on too long.

Watch the first 30 seconds of the confrontation and tell me Superman didn't have ample time to put Bruce in his place. This film fails because in order for its two heroes to fight one and other it requires both of them to be idiots. Batman doesn't use his detective skills to discover who Clark really is, and Superman shuts his mouth when his mother's life is on the line. If even one of those things happen the fight never takes place. The 'greatest gladiator battle' amounts to both characters being watered down to suit the title of the film.

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

Watch it, but whatever you do don't purchase it.

 

[AnneFan]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

It does for me, but your mileage may vary.

In any case, I hope the BvS UC does strong home video sales, like Man of Steel. I think it will. Childish boycotts, petitions and the like usually don't do anything.