BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 3

I think part of the problem is the overuse of the filter. An altered color tone is supposed to mean something ( a green filter, evocative of computer screens, when inside the Matrix, for example ). By using basically the same filter all the time, whatever the feel or purpose of the scene, it just becomes a meaningless flourish. Especially in BvS, where you have two radically different characters who really should have different filters: increased contrast and exaggerated color for Superman, everything duller, darker, and reduced to shades of black for Batman, with normal unaltered vision for scenes involving normal people.
 
I thought the color palette for MoS was good for the most part. Maybe it's just my TV but that movie is colorful enough for me.
But they went a little too far with BvS.
 
I thought the color palette for MoS was good for the most part. Maybe it's just my TV but that movie is colorful enough for me.
But they went a little too far with BvS.
They went too far with BvS but MOS was still pretty...grey looking to my eyes.
 
Distracting or otherwise independently unpopular elements like color palettes, costuming, make-up, mise en scène, general aesthetic, etc. are often deemed superficial and wholly forgivable as long as the plotting and character motivations are able to achieve verisimilitude and avoid frigidity (that is, the John Gardner theory of frigidity). In other words, everything is good as long as the story remains honest and ontologically viable. For me, there isn't anything to talk about regarding what went wrong in BvS outside of its story and mode of storytelling.
 
Okay, then, what's wrong with the story and the storytelling?

The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.
 
The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

giphy.gif
 
The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

Good post.

The story failed the characters.

I enjoyed the movie for what it was, but I honestly understand why it received the response from general audiences (and critics).

I feel that ending (death of superman plot) was not earned. I also felt the "universe building preview" for justice league was rushed.

I think most of the flack DC is receiving boils down to the story issues of the films. The potential is there......
 
If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows.

Exactly, which is why the film goes out of its way to show that Superman does everything in his power to avoid coming to blows with Batman, and Batman only is convinced blows are necessary through a combination of external manipulation and PTSD clouding his judgment.

The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match.

The film asserts that Batman is a hero who has been retraumatized by the Black Zero event and the sum total of two decades of failures and losses. We're shown that grief, tragedy, loss, and failure has turned a good man cruel. Given this context, Batman's actions are far from contrived. Superman, on the other hand, is presented as naive yet still committed to his mission as Superman. He saves people, he investigates abuses of power, and he complies with government investigations. Superman is asserted to be someone whose greatest weakness is his emotional attachments, and this is exactly what Lex exploits. Even so, Superman never seriously executes a plan to use violence to solve his problems. He finds hope in those he loves, and he only fights Batman in self defense.

They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative.

Batman and Superman are presented as empathetic, in my view. I empathize with Bruce's trauma: the fear, anxiety, and depression that has caused him to lose control of his judgment and even sanity. He's spent twenty years watching everything he's tried to achieve come to nothing. He's lost friends. He was powerless to save his people at Wayne Enterprises in Metropolis when Zod attacked. Do I agree with him? No, but there's nothing about Bruce's feelings or actions that I do not feel for or understand.

Superman is far from a cypher. He's an alien -- an other -- who is still working out his own identity, but he's also struggling with the mutability of public opinion. He wants to do good and tries to do good, but it never seems to come without a price. And no matter how many times he saves people, he still is not trusted. In those circumstances, he clings to those who love him and truly know him. He investigates Batman because he sees in him someone who is giving heroes like himself a bad name. He cares about powerful men abusing their power. More than anything, I can empathize with Superman's discouragement. The despair that can seep in when the good you do is unappreciated, or worse, misinterpreted. I empathize with his frustration with having power while also having to apply that power with restraint and humility lest people fear or hate you. I empathize with how challenging it can be to stay true to yourself when the things that mean most to you in this world are at risk.

In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs.

A point that I love and find utterly compelling. I love the idea that even with their ideological differences, Batman and Superman do not have it in themselves to actually fight. I love the suggestion that conflict between two heroes who should by all rights be allies and friends must be manipulated by men of privilege and power in order to reach the point of violent conflict. Because that is a concept that is so real to me. There are so many disparate groups in this world with common interests who would be best served by working together to achieve progressive goals, but there are powerful entities who use their power to stoke fear and hate in order to maintain the status quo. For example, politicians often use fear to win elections, start wars, or justify a crackdown on civil liberties.

Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman.

Poorly related? He was raised by an abusive father who taught him to fear tyrants. Lex is a brilliant, powerful, and wealthy man who uses his intelligence, power, and wealth to maintain control. The existence of Superman threatens Lex's sense of control and security. He's someone whose power and goodness challenge Lex because Lex cannot equal him. Lex projects onto Superman both his hatred for his father and his hatred for a god who failed to save him. Typically, Lex Luthor despises Superman and seeks to destroy him because he believes himself to be humanity's true Superman. He believes humanity is threatened by superior beings from other worlds. He's a true Ubermensch. DCEU Lex is hardly cut from a different cloth.

You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself.

It is trite to kidnap someone a hero loves to generate conflict, but given what we know about Superman in this universe, it is the only play that makes sense. It is also a creative decision that links Batman and Superman together -- creates empathy -- in a way that allows the film to explore how love, empathy, and connection can resolve conflict. Superman chooses to face Batman because he wanted to believe that there was something in Batman that was still good. He was not proven wrong. Superman was told that if he was caught in the act of saving his mother, then she was as good as dead. He was also told that he had considerable time constraints. Superman examined the situation in front of him and chose faith in his fellow man as his strategy. That's the kind of Superman I want to see. I want to see a Superman who is capable of believing that someone as belligerent as Batman could see reason and be a hero. I want to see a Superman who believes in second chances.

And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can.

First of all, Batman is not privileged with the same omniscient point of view of the audience. Second, it's ludicrous to suggest that intelligence has anything to do with stripping a man of his paranoia and mental illness. Alfred called Bruce's descent a fever that turns good men cruel. One cannot cure a fever with intelligence. Bruce is blinded by his own trauma, depression, and sense of powerless. He has lost control. But that's why it is powerful to see the means by which he begins to convalesce and regain control. He is confronted with an image of himself becoming his own nightmare, and it opens the door for Bruce to reconnect with his true self. He can see himself and see his world more clearly because his greatest trauma was recreated.

Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title.

They do this to explore the imperfections of heroes. How heroes can fall, and how they can rise. They do this to show us that heroes are not above PTSD, they are not above having love as a weakness, they are not above despair, they are not above doubt. The title promised only that the conflict between Batman and Superman would be the cause of a dawn of justice. The conflict, therefore, must explore the barriers that stand between heroes coming together to serve a greater good. The film, rightly, explores and exploits the most significant flaws in these iconic characters. For Bruce, his greatest flaw is his cynicism, control, and inability to break free of the trauma of his parents' death. For Clark, his greatest strength, which is his love for humanity, is also his greatest weakness. His need for acceptance and connection as a source of his optimism and hope is challenged.

Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up.

It's not a dime. It's Bruce seeing himself clearly. It's Bruce seeing how far he has fallen. It's Bruce being confronted with the humanity of a man he refused to see as anything other than an abstraction onto which to project his own sense of powerlessness.

Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected.

Uninvestigated? The film investigates Superman's sense of belonging and his sense of purpose. He begins by believing that people can see the good in him and will ultimately vindicate him only to see that hope slowly fade as his every attempt to do good and inspire hope in people only seems to breed more fear and more conflict. We see Superman as his alter ego, Clark Kent, pursuing social justice because he recognizes and is intrigued by another hero who is abusing his power. It's heroes like Batman that condition people to believe that someone like Superman cannot be an impeachable source of good. We see that what gives Superman the strength to overcome his hopelessness is to hold onto to the hope that the woman he loves has for him. I am affected just by the idea of a wrongly persecuted man who chooses to sacrifice his life for a world that has chosen to see the worst in him.

Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

They didn't bring him back to life. There was a hint of a promise, but that promise has not yet been fulfilled.
 
Oh please we all know he'll be alive and well in Justice League.
 
The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

giphy.gif

Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself.

Just to add to this point. There is a point when the film had me going what?!! Let me elaborate,in this film it's established that whenever Lois is in trouble, Superman flies in and saves her. This is a rule and logic set in the film. That's great. I buy it even if I think overall it's a dumb idea but we have to believe it since the film is telling us this is the case. So the woman who raised him since he was a baby, taught him how to hone his senses and powers gets kidnapped and he hears nothing? His own mother? He hears nothing but god forbid he hears Lois. He saves her three ****ing times in this movie whenever she was in danger. (I was hoping she'd drown at the end when she went to retrieve the spear she threw in the first place) So Lex had to kidnap Lois ( For some reason Superman doesn't hear it) so that he can push her off a building to get Supermans attention so that he can tell him he has kidnapped his mother. The film is now bending its own set of rules and logic to make the V in the title happen instead of making it flow organically. As a result the conflict is forced and superficial and just plan dumb right down to its core. It's poor and lazy storytelling. But otherwise great post man. Hit the nail on the head.
giphy.gif
 
The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

Agreed with all of this. Great post Assassin32.
 
Agreed with Assassin32 Tee-Kay. For someone who is suppose to be the world's greatest detective, his motives for taking out Superman made no sense. WB would have been better off making a World's Finest movie.
 
Exactly, which is why the film goes out of its way to show that Superman does everything in his power to avoid coming to blows with Batman, and Batman only is convinced blows are necessary through a combination of external manipulation and PTSD clouding his judgment.



The film asserts that Batman is a hero who has been retraumatized by the Black Zero event and the sum total of two decades of failures and losses. We're shown that grief, tragedy, loss, and failure has turned a good man cruel. Given this context, Batman's actions are far from contrived. Superman, on the other hand, is presented as naive yet still committed to his mission as Superman. He saves people, he investigates abuses of power, and he complies with government investigations. Superman is asserted to be someone whose greatest weakness is his emotional attachments, and this is exactly what Lex exploits. Even so, Superman never seriously executes a plan to use violence to solve his problems. He finds hope in those he loves, and he only fights Batman in self defense.



Batman and Superman are presented as empathetic, in my view. I empathize with Bruce's trauma: the fear, anxiety, and depression that has caused him to lose control of his judgment and even sanity. He's spent twenty years watching everything he's tried to achieve come to nothing. He's lost friends. He was powerless to save his people at Wayne Enterprises in Metropolis when Zod attacked. Do I agree with him? No, but there's nothing about Bruce's feelings or actions that I do not feel for or understand.

Superman is far from a cypher. He's an alien -- an other -- who is still working out his own identity, but he's also struggling with the mutability of public opinion. He wants to do good and tries to do good, but it never seems to come without a price. And no matter how many times he saves people, he still is not trusted. In those circumstances, he clings to those who love him and truly know him. He investigates Batman because he sees in him someone who is giving heroes like himself a bad name. He cares about powerful men abusing their power. More than anything, I can empathize with Superman's discouragement. The despair that can seep in when the good you do is unappreciated, or worse, misinterpreted. I empathize with his frustration with having power while also having to apply that power with restraint and humility lest people fear or hate you. I empathize with how challenging it can be to stay true to yourself when the things that mean most to you in this world are at risk.



A point that I love and find utterly compelling. I love the idea that even with their ideological differences, Batman and Superman do not have it in themselves to actually fight. I love the suggestion that conflict between two heroes who should by all rights be allies and friends must be manipulated by men of privilege and power in order to reach the point of violent conflict. Because that is a concept that is so real to me. There are so many disparate groups in this world with common interests who would be best served by working together to achieve progressive goals, but there are powerful entities who use their power to stoke fear and hate in order to maintain the status quo. For example, politicians often use fear to win elections, start wars, or justify a crackdown on civil liberties.



Poorly related? He was raised by an abusive father who taught him to fear tyrants. Lex is a brilliant, powerful, and wealthy man who uses his intelligence, power, and wealth to maintain control. The existence of Superman threatens Lex's sense of control and security. He's someone whose power and goodness challenge Lex because Lex cannot equal him. Lex projects onto Superman both his hatred for his father and his hatred for a god who failed to save him. Typically, Lex Luthor despises Superman and seeks to destroy him because he believes himself to be humanity's true Superman. He believes humanity is threatened by superior beings from other worlds. He's a true Ubermensch. DCEU Lex is hardly cut from a different cloth.



It is trite to kidnap someone a hero loves to generate conflict, but given what we know about Superman in this universe, it is the only play that makes sense. It is also a creative decision that links Batman and Superman together -- creates empathy -- in a way that allows the film to explore how love, empathy, and connection can resolve conflict. Superman chooses to face Batman because he wanted to believe that there was something in Batman that was still good. He was not proven wrong. Superman was told that if he was caught in the act of saving his mother, then she was as good as dead. He was also told that he had considerable time constraints. Superman examined the situation in front of him and chose faith in his fellow man as his strategy. That's the kind of Superman I want to see. I want to see a Superman who is capable of believing that someone as belligerent as Batman could see reason and be a hero. I want to see a Superman who believes in second chances.



First of all, Batman is not privileged with the same omniscient point of view of the audience. Second, it's ludicrous to suggest that intelligence has anything to do with stripping a man of his paranoia and mental illness. Alfred called Bruce's descent a fever that turns good men cruel. One cannot cure a fever with intelligence. Bruce is blinded by his own trauma, depression, and sense of powerless. He has lost control. But that's why it is powerful to see the means by which he begins to convalesce and regain control. He is confronted with an image of himself becoming his own nightmare, and it opens the door for Bruce to reconnect with his true self. He can see himself and see his world more clearly because his greatest trauma was recreated.



They do this to explore the imperfections of heroes. How heroes can fall, and how they can rise. They do this to show us that heroes are not above PTSD, they are not above having love as a weakness, they are not above despair, they are not above doubt. The title promised only that the conflict between Batman and Superman would be the cause of a dawn of justice. The conflict, therefore, must explore the barriers that stand between heroes coming together to serve a greater good. The film, rightly, explores and exploits the most significant flaws in these iconic characters. For Bruce, his greatest flaw is his cynicism, control, and inability to break free of the trauma of his parents' death. For Clark, his greatest strength, which is his love for humanity, is also his greatest weakness. His need for acceptance and connection as a source of his optimism and hope is challenged.



It's not a dime. It's Bruce seeing himself clearly. It's Bruce seeing how far he has fallen. It's Bruce being confronted with the humanity of a man he refused to see as anything other than an abstraction onto which to project his own sense of powerlessness.



Uninvestigated? The film investigates Superman's sense of belonging and his sense of purpose. He begins by believing that people can see the good in him and will ultimately vindicate him only to see that hope slowly fade as his every attempt to do good and inspire hope in people only seems to breed more fear and more conflict. We see Superman as his alter ego, Clark Kent, pursuing social justice because he recognizes and is intrigued by another hero who is abusing his power. It's heroes like Batman that condition people to believe that someone like Superman cannot be an impeachable source of good. We see that what gives Superman the strength to overcome his hopelessness is to hold onto to the hope that the woman he loves has for him. I am affected just by the idea of a wrongly persecuted man who chooses to sacrifice his life for a world that has chosen to see the worst in him.



They didn't bring him back to life. There was a hint of a promise, but that promise has not yet been fulfilled.

Awesome post. It's a shame that some people just don't get the many layers in this movie. It really is a masterpiece.
 
Ah its been nearly 4 days since we've had a 'we didn't get it' post. I thought it was starting to die out. Thank you, hapless, for restoring my faith in blind fanboyism towards this "masterpiece".
 
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Ah its been a while since we've had a 'we didn't get it' post. Thank you, hapless, for restoring my faith in blind fanboyism towards this "masterpiece".

First, I'm a woman. Second, I never said that anyone didn't "get it" and didn't call the film a "masterpiece." An opinion of the film was offered, and I provided a counterpoint. You are welcome to disagree with me with your own interpretations and conclusions, but it seems you are more interested in heckling from the sidelines with hyperbole, strawman arguments, and insults.
 
The story betrays its characters in an effort to stage a grand one-on-one showdown between Batman and Superman. A story is nothing without its characters, and so a story must maintain fidelity to its principals. Flannery O'Conner wrote long ago that all stories blossom from an investigation of character. I've found this to be true. If Batman vs Superman had properly investigated its dual protagonists, then they would have never come to blows. The movie ignores who it asserts these characters are and what they represent so that it can present the spectacle of their grudge match. They are not empathetic, they are cyphers. Nothing is earned. Everything is built upon either gross sentimentality or manipulation and frigidity. They are puppets thrown at each other for an expensive special effects sequence. In The Dark Knight Returns, the final fight is staged between a Fascist Batman and a Superman who swears allegiance to the Regan Administration; they are at clear ideological odds, and so their fight develops naturally over the course of the narrative. In Batman vs Superman, the conflict develops unnaturally. Their battle is a manipulation by the raconteurs. Lex Luthor, another character with motivations that are poorly related and often unclear and outright unbelievable, coerces Superman to challenge The Batman. You see, he's kidnapped a woman whom Superman loves (my God, how trite). With all the powers we've been shown this Superman possesses, he still chooses to face the belligerent Batman rather than exercise his considerable abilities and save his mother himself. And Batman, for all his intelligence, can't see he is wrong about Superman's intentions even though every layman in the audience can. Why do the filmmakers do this? Because they need these characters to take these weak actions if they are going to make good on the promise in their title. Then when enough punches have been thrown, and the filmmakers need the fight to end, they stop it on a dime and give the audience the inevitable team-up. Then they have the gall to kill Superman, this univestigated, undercooked cypher, and expect the audience to be affected. Then, a few minutes later, when they bring him back to life before the end credits, they expect a cheer. Frigidity and manipulation of the highest order. Truly an ill-wrought story and an unsatisfying, dishonest movie.

Fantastic! Please keep going!
 
First, I'm a woman. Second, I never said that anyone didn't "get it" and didn't call the film a "masterpiece." An opinion of the film was offered, and I provided a counterpoint. You are welcome to disagree with me with your own interpretations and conclusions, but it seems you are more interested in heckling from the sidelines with hyperbole, strawman arguments, and insults.

I was talking to the person directly above me who explicitly said we didn't get it, and who was also the one who called it a masterpiece. Nothing to do with what you said about anyone or anything.

I leave the strawmans, hyperbole, and heckling to the ones who like to deride the critics by insulting our intelligence with the 'we didn't get it' excuse.
 
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it was unfortunate that the movie never explored interesting themes the first half of the movie raised.
 
Exactly, which is why the film goes out of its way to show that Superman does everything in his power to avoid coming to blows with Batman, and Batman only is convinced blows are necessary through a combination of external manipulation and PTSD clouding his judgment.


The film asserts that Batman is a hero who has been retraumatized by the Black Zero event and the sum total of two decades of failures and losses. We're shown that grief, tragedy, loss, and failure has turned a good man cruel. Given this context, Batman's actions are far from contrived. Superman, on the other hand, is presented as naive yet still committed to his mission as Superman. He saves people, he investigates abuses of power, and he complies with government investigations. Superman is asserted to be someone whose greatest weakness is his emotional attachments, and this is exactly what Lex exploits. Even so, Superman never seriously executes a plan to use violence to solve his problems. He finds hope in those he loves, and he only fights Batman in self defense.
Are we shown that, or are we, except for the battle in Metropolis, just told that?


Batman and Superman are presented as empathetic, in my view. I empathize with Bruce's trauma: the fear, anxiety, and depression that has caused him to lose control of his judgment and even sanity. He's spent twenty years watching everything he's tried to achieve come to nothing. He's lost friends. He was powerless to save his people at Wayne Enterprises in Metropolis when Zod attacked. Do I agree with him? No, but there's nothing about Bruce's feelings or actions that I do not feel for or understand.


First of all, Batman is not privileged with the same omniscient point of view of the audience. Second, it's ludicrous to suggest that intelligence has anything to do with stripping a man of his paranoia and mental illness. Alfred called Bruce's descent a fever that turns good men cruel. One cannot cure a fever with intelligence. Bruce is blinded by his own trauma, depression, and sense of powerless. He has lost control. But that's why it is powerful to see the means by which he begins to convalesce and regain control. He is confronted with an image of himself becoming his own nightmare, and it opens the door for Bruce to reconnect with his true self. He can see himself and see his world more clearly because his greatest trauma was recreated.

They do this to explore the imperfections of heroes. How heroes can fall, and how they can rise. They do this to show us that heroes are not above PTSD, they are not above having love as a weakness, they are not above despair, they are not above doubt. The title promised only that the conflict between Batman and Superman would be the cause of a dawn of justice. The conflict, therefore, must explore the barriers that stand between heroes coming together to serve a greater good. The film, rightly, explores and exploits the most significant flaws in these iconic characters. For Bruce, his greatest flaw is his cynicism, control, and inability to break free of the trauma of his parents' death. For Clark, his greatest strength, which is his love for humanity, is also his greatest weakness. His need for acceptance and connection as a source of his optimism and hope is challenged.
Ah, the old "Bruce is suffering from trauma and that's the reason to why his motivation doesn't follow logic.". If it only was that easy to write good character drama. The character's motivation doesn't make sense? Eh, let's just say that he's suffering from a trauma, and then his reasoning doesn't have to make sense. The character is acting illogical? Eh, throw in some PTSD and call it a day. Here's the thing, even if the character is suffering from a trauma, you still have to create believable motivations for the character. Even if he's acting illogical to the outside world, he's still operating under his own internal logic. BvS doesn't show us that. BvS is a hollow movie masquerading as something profound.


A point that I love and find utterly compelling. I love the idea that even with their ideological differences, Batman and Superman do not have it in themselves to actually fight. I love the suggestion that conflict between two heroes who should by all rights be allies and friends must be manipulated by men of privilege and power in order to reach the point of violent conflict. Because that is a concept that is so real to me. There are so many disparate groups in this world with common interests who would be best served by working together to achieve progressive goals, but there are powerful entities who use their power to stoke fear and hate in order to maintain the status quo. For example, politicians often use fear to win elections, start wars, or justify a crackdown on civil liberties.

I find it to be writing that takes the easy way out. Instead of showing heroes who have to fight each other because their different ideologies push them past the point of solving their differences with words, we have heroes who are just being manipulated. And by that, the writer takes away the heroes responsibility in the action, and puts it on a third party instead. Easy way out.


It is trite to kidnap someone a hero loves to generate conflict, but given what we know about Superman in this universe, it is the only play that makes sense.
You really don't think a good writer could've solved that without kidnapping Lois? Wait, I mean kidnapping Lois to draw out Superman so Lex can tell him that he also kidnapped his mother ...
 
Are we shown that, or are we, except for the battle in Metropolis, just told that?

We're shown it. After the destruction of Wayne Enterprises, we actually see and hear how Batman has become unhinged. He's branding people, Alfred is concerned about him, and he's on Clark's radar at the Daily Planet. Several people have remarked upon his more brutal and reckless methods, particularly in his pursuit of the kryptonite shipped on the White Portuguese. We see Bruce's nightmares. We see the fever spreading.

Ah, the old "Bruce is suffering from trauma and that's the reason to why his motivation doesn't follow logic.". If it only was that easy to write good character drama. The character's motivation doesn't make sense? Eh, let's just say that he's suffering from a trauma, and then his reasoning doesn't have to make sense. The character is acting illogical? Eh, throw in some PTSD and call it a day. Here's the thing, even if the character is suffering from a trauma, you still have to create believable motivations for the character. Even if he's acting illogical to the outside world, he's still operating under his own internal logic. BvS doesn't show us that. BvS is a hollow movie masquerading as something profound.

Bruce is operating under his own internal logic. His logic is that heroism is a beautiful lie. The light is a lie. He sees Superman lauded as a hero but can only see where Superman falls short. He clearly explains to Alfred that his decades as Batman have taught him that good does not breed good. How many good men stay that way? He fears the time when Superman falls.

I find it to be writing that takes the easy way out. Instead of showing heroes who have to fight each other because their different ideologies push them past the point of solving their differences with words, we have heroes who are just being manipulated. And by that, the writer takes away the heroes responsibility in the action, and puts it on a third party instead. Easy way out.

It's not easy at all. First, we do see how their ideologies become mixed with manipulation to lead to the big fight. Lex is stoking the fire but didn't create the fire in the first place. Like all corrupt and evil tyrants, he takes existing ideological and political differences and magnifies them for his own ends. I don't see how it is easy at all to use Lex to show how the rich, powerful, and privileged are the true source of escalating conflict between those who should be allies. In this film, we get to see the ideological differences clash at the same time we see how that conflict is fueled by powerful third parties who want to gain and maintain power and control at all costs. It is a much more interesting story, in my opinion.

You really don't think a good writer could've solved that without kidnapping Lois? Wait, I mean kidnapping Lois to draw out Superman so Lex can tell him that he also kidnapped his mother ...

Not if the goal is to reveal that the Man of Steel's greatest weakness are his human connections. It is a way to directly contradict the public's wrongful opinion of him as a detached other. It is a way to highlight just how human this god is. It reminds me of a Lois Lane line from Adventures of Superman #640 by Greg Rucka:

"You look at Superman, and you wonder, what can he possibly have to worry about? What could possibly ever hurt him? But just because his skin is invulnerable, that doesn't mean his heart is. And that's how you hurt Superman. You break his heart."

How else does Lex show Superman that he has figured him out and cornered him? Going after Lois and Martha shows Superman that Luthor not only knows he's Clark "Joe" Kent who loves Lois Lane and his mother, Martha Kent, but it shows that he has complete control of these people. It is a power play that cuts to the heart of Superman. Kidnapping Lois is also a way to intimidate her and get under her skin, since she's obviously planning to expose him.
 
It's puzzling to see Superman's need for appreciation brought up as the linchpin for his characterization in this film -- bc of what it says about what we expect of him as a character/person, and the fact that the film itself offers conflicting arguments for why that should carry much weight. The world has glorified him to the point where he's polarizing, but not outright rejected. As seen with the statue and the grieving crowds during his funeral, there's already plentiful Superman appreciation out there -- which, for sth this sensational, should be impossible to miss. Would talkshow chatter and one particular Congressperson's issue eclipse that to an unexpected degree? If so, why?

There are the accusations of Superman's unilaterality in Africa, and whether they're unfair or not. In the TC he arrives and saves Lois while simply letting the henchmen get away directly underneath him. In the UC he destroys an inbound missile, but fails at keeping people on the ground from being massacred except for his gf... which left him unable to detect the hoax that would later be staged against him, and made him a prime target for cleverer schemers. How can he afford to be offended when he's really that ineffective.

His issues with Batman mean nothing, because they lead nowhere plotwise and eventually go away once other priorities come up.

In the capitol attack he proves how inefficient he is, which he himself admits, and his immediate response to that is to vanish. The issue isn't whether or not his demoralization is understandable, it's why should "public opinion" be that detrimental to his commitment. Why is that something he needs to depend on as Superman -- or something that should be greeted with pity and not contempt on the audience's part. Especially when every obstacle that he encounters is the kind that should, sensibly, be expected in this mission of his. Why should pity be granted to this easily-defeated powerful whiner. It compromises the empathy that the film's ethos is depending on.

Then he dies, for reasons unrelated to what brought him to this point in the film. He was there to save his Lois, and his Martha, and fight Batman, and kill him if he must. If there had been no Doomsday locked and ready, that's the moral cul-de-sac he would've concluded this story in. And the film treats that as a bailout, and assumes pity and a death scene and more pity will do what writing has so far not bothered with. It's failure as drama that is deeply ingrained.
 
It's puzzling to see Superman's need for appreciation brought up as the linchpin for his characterization in this film -- bc of what it says about what we expect of him as a character/person, and the fact that the film itself offers conflicting arguments for why that should carry much weight. The world has glorified him to the point where he's polarizing, but not outright rejected. As seen with the statue and the grieving crowds during his funeral, there's already plentiful Superman appreciation out there -- which, for sth this sensational, should be impossible to miss. Would talkshow chatter and one particular Congressperson's issue eclipse that to an unexpected degree? If so, why?

The idea of being appreciated carries weight with Superman because his mission is to inspire hope. So if his good actions seem to provoke more fear and anxiety than hope and change, then that is going to make him question whether the world is ready for Superman. Public opinion is important because Superman can see how polarization can generate devastating conflict and violence.

There are the accusations of Superman's unilaterality in Africa, and whether they're unfair or not. In the TC he arrives and saves Lois while simply letting the henchmen get away directly underneath him. In the UC he destroys an inbound missile, but fails at keeping people on the ground from being massacred except for his gf... which left him unable to detect the hoax that would later be staged against him, and made him a prime target for cleverer schemers. How can he afford to be offended when he's really that ineffective.

He's not offended. Superman is heartbroken. He sees in Wallace Keefe what can happen when Superman falls short of perfection. The public looks to him the way they look to a god for salvation, so any mistake has the potential to yield dangerous results. Superman fears that he lives in a world that cannot tolerate or withstand his imperfections, and that makes him question whether or not Superman is an idea best left to the shadows.

His issues with Batman mean nothing, because they lead nowhere plotwise and eventually go away once other priorities come up.

Superman's issues with Batman are the means through which Clark works through his own concerns about the role of a superhero in society. When he sees that his own attempts at heroism can be just as devastating at Batman's regardless of the difference in intent, then he must consider must there be a Superman? And, most importantly, it gives his eventual need to team up with Batman or fight him to the death more weight and meaning. That we can see Superman put aside his ideological differences with Batman in order to ally in a fight for a good cause, then we see his character more clearly revealed. In other words, the fact that Superman will discard his anti-Batman crusade when more priorities come up is meaningful rather than meaningless.

In the capitol attack he proves how inefficient he is, which he himself admits, and his immediate response to that is to vanish. The issue isn't whether or not his demoralization is understandable, it's why should "public opinion" be that detrimental to his commitment. Why is that something he needs to depend on as Superman -- or something that should be greeted with pity and not contempt on the audience's part. Especially when every obstacle that he encounters is the kind that should, sensibly, be expected in this mission of his. Why should pity be granted to this easily-defeated powerful whiner. It compromises the empathy that the film's ethos is depending on.

We should pity Superman as we pity ourselves because both live in a world, much like our own, where imperfection is not tolerated. We should pity Superman in his demoralization and lack of resolve to his commitment to serve as humanity's savior because he sees that his presence and actions do more harm than good. Most importantly, however, Superman isn't easily defeated. His retirement is short-lived. We empathize with Superman because he met failure, reached rock bottom, and found a way out of his despair.

Then he dies, for reasons unrelated to what brought him to this point in the film. He was there to save his Lois, and his Martha, and fight Batman, and kill him if he must. If there had been no Doomsday locked and ready, that's the moral cul-de-sac he would've concluded this story in. And the film treats that as a bailout, and assumes pity and a death scene and more pity will do what writing has so far not bothered with. It's failure as drama that is deeply ingrained.

Superman dies because Lex -- one piece of that humanity that crucified him for being god and not being god enough -- created a devil to prove his lack of divinity. Superman's sacrifice ultimately proves the opposite: death makes him a man but also makes him divine. Superman was brought to this point in the film in order to prove he is neither man nor god. Resolving his conflict with Batman through the shared connection of their humanity proves he is a man, and then that man gives his life for a world that crucified him, which elevates him to messianic status in the hearts and minds of the public.
 
Exactly, which is why the film goes out of its way to show that Superman does everything in his power to avoid coming to blows with Batman, and Batman only is convinced blows are necessary through a combination of external manipulation and PTSD clouding his judgment.

The film asserts that Batman is a hero who has been retraumatized by the Black Zero event and the sum total of two decades of failures and losses. We're shown that grief, tragedy, loss, and failure has turned a good man cruel. Given this context, Batman's actions are far from contrived. Superman, on the other hand, is presented as naive yet still committed to his mission as Superman. He saves people, he investigates abuses of power, and he complies with government investigations. Superman is asserted to be someone whose greatest weakness is his emotional attachments, and this is exactly what Lex exploits. Even so, Superman never seriously executes a plan to use violence to solve his problems. He finds hope in those he loves, and he only fights Batman in self defense.

Batman and Superman are presented as empathetic, in my view. I empathize with Bruce's trauma: the fear, anxiety, and depression that has caused him to lose control of his judgment and even sanity. He's spent twenty years watching everything he's tried to achieve come to nothing. He's lost friends. He was powerless to save his people at Wayne Enterprises in Metropolis when Zod attacked. Do I agree with him? No, but there's nothing about Bruce's feelings or actions that I do not feel for or understand.

Superman is far from a cypher. He's an alien -- an other -- who is still working out his own identity, but he's also struggling with the mutability of public opinion. He wants to do good and tries to do good, but it never seems to come without a price. And no matter how many times he saves people, he still is not trusted. In those circumstances, he clings to those who love him and truly know him. He investigates Batman because he sees in him someone who is giving heroes like himself a bad name. He cares about powerful men abusing their power. More than anything, I can empathize with Superman's discouragement. The despair that can seep in when the good you do is unappreciated, or worse, misinterpreted. I empathize with his frustration with having power while also having to apply that power with restraint and humility lest people fear or hate you. I empathize with how challenging it can be to stay true to yourself when the things that mean most to you in this world are at risk.

A point that I love and find utterly compelling. I love the idea that even with their ideological differences, Batman and Superman do not have it in themselves to actually fight. I love the suggestion that conflict between two heroes who should by all rights be allies and friends must be manipulated by men of privilege and power in order to reach the point of violent conflict. Because that is a concept that is so real to me. There are so many disparate groups in this world with common interests who would be best served by working together to achieve progressive goals, but there are powerful entities who use their power to stoke fear and hate in order to maintain the status quo. For example, politicians often use fear to win elections, start wars, or justify a crackdown on civil liberties.

Poorly related? He was raised by an abusive father who taught him to fear tyrants. Lex is a brilliant, powerful, and wealthy man who uses his intelligence, power, and wealth to maintain control. The existence of Superman threatens Lex's sense of control and security. He's someone whose power and goodness challenge Lex because Lex cannot equal him. Lex projects onto Superman both his hatred for his father and his hatred for a god who failed to save him. Typically, Lex Luthor despises Superman and seeks to destroy him because he believes himself to be humanity's true Superman. He believes humanity is threatened by superior beings from other worlds. He's a true Ubermensch. DCEU Lex is hardly cut from a different cloth.

It is trite to kidnap someone a hero loves to generate conflict, but given what we know about Superman in this universe, it is the only play that makes sense. It is also a creative decision that links Batman and Superman together -- creates empathy -- in a way that allows the film to explore how love, empathy, and connection can resolve conflict. Superman chooses to face Batman because he wanted to believe that there was something in Batman that was still good. He was not proven wrong. Superman was told that if he was caught in the act of saving his mother, then she was as good as dead. He was also told that he had considerable time constraints. Superman examined the situation in front of him and chose faith in his fellow man as his strategy. That's the kind of Superman I want to see. I want to see a Superman who is capable of believing that someone as belligerent as Batman could see reason and be a hero. I want to see a Superman who believes in second chances.

First of all, Batman is not privileged with the same omniscient point of view of the audience. Second, it's ludicrous to suggest that intelligence has anything to do with stripping a man of his paranoia and mental illness. Alfred called Bruce's descent a fever that turns good men cruel. One cannot cure a fever with intelligence. Bruce is blinded by his own trauma, depression, and sense of powerless. He has lost control. But that's why it is powerful to see the means by which he begins to convalesce and regain control. He is confronted with an image of himself becoming his own nightmare, and it opens the door for Bruce to reconnect with his true self. He can see himself and see his world more clearly because his greatest trauma was recreated.

They do this to explore the imperfections of heroes. How heroes can fall, and how they can rise. They do this to show us that heroes are not above PTSD, they are not above having love as a weakness, they are not above despair, they are not above doubt. The title promised only that the conflict between Batman and Superman would be the cause of a dawn of justice. The conflict, therefore, must explore the barriers that stand between heroes coming together to serve a greater good. The film, rightly, explores and exploits the most significant flaws in these iconic characters. For Bruce, his greatest flaw is his cynicism, control, and inability to break free of the trauma of his parents' death. For Clark, his greatest strength, which is his love for humanity, is also his greatest weakness. His need for acceptance and connection as a source of his optimism and hope is challenged.

It's not a dime. It's Bruce seeing himself clearly. It's Bruce seeing how far he has fallen. It's Bruce being confronted with the humanity of a man he refused to see as anything other than an abstraction onto which to project his own sense of powerlessness.

Uninvestigated? The film investigates Superman's sense of belonging and his sense of purpose. He begins by believing that people can see the good in him and will ultimately vindicate him only to see that hope slowly fade as his every attempt to do good and inspire hope in people only seems to breed more fear and more conflict. We see Superman as his alter ego, Clark Kent, pursuing social justice because he recognizes and is intrigued by another hero who is abusing his power. It's heroes like Batman that condition people to believe that someone like Superman cannot be an impeachable source of good. We see that what gives Superman the strength to overcome his hopelessness is to hold onto to the hope that the woman he loves has for him. I am affected just by the idea of a wrongly persecuted man who chooses to sacrifice his life for a world that has chosen to see the worst in him.

They didn't bring him back to life. There was a hint of a promise, but that promise has not yet been fulfilled.

Obviously I think all of the above is ridiculous. I do think it's fascinating that you believe all this, though. And that you're so passionate. We won't change each others' minds, but would you try to help me understand where you're coming from? Would you be willing to show us all a list of your favorite movies? Something like a top ten. More if you'd like. Actually, you can throw in some novels or plays if you're into those. I'd like to know the stories that you love. The stories that have shaped your perspective. I think it'd be enlightening, and I think it would help me understand how you've arrived at this opinion of Batman v Superman. Anyway, it would certainly be more constructive than taking turns beating these dead horses.
 
Obviously I think all of the above is ridiculous. I do think it's fascinating that you believe all this, though. And that you're so passionate. We won't change each others' minds, but would you try to help me understand where you're coming from? Would you be willing to show us all a list of your favorite movies? Something like a top ten. More if you'd like. Actually, you can throw in some novels or plays if you're into those. I'd like to know the stories that you love. The stories that have shaped your perspective. I think it'd be enlightening, and I think it would help me understand how you've arrived at this opinion of Batman v Superman. Anyway, it would certainly be more constructive than taking turns beating these dead horses.

Why should I do anything for someone who calls my opinions ridiculous and proceeds to treat me like some sort of research subject for study? How would you like it if I asked for you to provide a list of references in order for me to understand how you arrived at your opinions and judge your opinion worth taking seriously? You have got to be kidding me! Unless you intend on having discussion about this film, which is what this thread is about, I am not interested in any further conversation with you.
 

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