BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[Batsfan1]

The only person he killed, it was given a heavy importance to the story.

It wasn't made important that I remember. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[InspecktahDeck]

One could argue and say Batman seemed like more of the protagonist in BvS and got more of the focus and effort to nail the character and his world (outside of the killing).

He was clearly the one causing trouble. He loses the moral arguement and only has one heroic moment in the film, compared to Superman who is the one that really saves the day.

The movie's about how Batman has become an ******* and Superman saves him.

 

[Jaxon]

He was clearly the one causing trouble. He loses the moral arguement and only has one heroic moment in the film, compared to Superman who is the one that really saves the day.

The movie's about how Batman has become an ******* and Superman saves him.

Correct which is exactly what they were going for. Batman in a s*** spin and Superman inspires him to be a better man.

 

[BarryAllen]

By making him the boring boy scout everyone hates or make him more relatable and human like everyone claims they want?

Funny, because they seem to emphasize Superman's alien nature more so than the fact that he's human. Man of Steel pretty much ****ed things up by playing up Jor-El's importance rather than Pa Kent's. He WAS RAISED ON Earth. Clark Kent is the real person and Superman is the persona, as opposed to the other way around. These movies did not humanize him whatsoever by missing the fundamental aspects of his character as well as his supporting cast, and this caused audiences not to relate to his struggles (also causing Batman and Wonder Woman to stand out for those very reasons).

 

[InspecktahDeck]

Funny, because they seem to emphasize Superman's alien nature more so than the fact that he's human. Man of Steel pretty much ****ed things up by playing up Jor-El's importance rather than Pa Kent's. He WAS RAISED ON Earth.

I hated this too in Man of Steel, it's my second biggest complaint about the film. It made zero sense and it was more of the same old pretentious "make Superman to be some kinda chosen one" rather than just him being what he is.

DoJ rectifies this however with Superman's final line. [BLACKOUT]THIS is my world. YOU'RE my world.[/BLACKOUT] Trust me, I didn't like when he said [BLACKOUT]It did on MY world. My world is dead.[/BLACKOUT] But near the end, it was clear he was just going through some frustration.

I'm not gonna pretend I'm Mark Hughes or whatever, but all the movie's lines with people comparing him to a savior or a god, and the "Maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing." Makes me think they're putting Kal-El to rest and emphasizing Clark as the real person. [BLACKOUT]Unfortunately they had a funeral for Clark, so it's going to majorly suck if there's no Clark/Daily Planet in sequels.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Poni_Boy]

It wasn't made important that I remember. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Dude I'm legit creeped out that you type that last sentence out with every post

 

[InspecktahDeck]

Dude I'm legit creeped out that you type that last sentence out with every post

I dunno, I kinda like it. Unless it's some guy with a blank stare saying it every time he drags someone into a van.

 

[Poni_Boy]

I dunno, I kinda like it. Unless it's some guy with a blank stare saying it every time he drags someone into a van.

Is it ever not?

 

[InspecktahDeck]

Is it ever not?

Tiny Tim

 

[Poni_Boy]

Tiny Tim

Oh great thanks I didn't ever want to sleep again anyway

 

[InspecktahDeck]

Oh great thanks I didn't ever want to sleep again anyway

I was wondering what other Tiny Tim could exist other than the one from A Christmas Carol, and lo and behold, an internet search provides me with images of the Penguin with musical instruments.

 

[Gabe99]

ABC News 07/29/08:
Comic-Con Wrap-up: Are Superheroes Done For?

Superman seems too earnest

Of course, as this summer and this comic-book convention have unfolded, it has become clear that no one is Superman anymore. Perhaps, says "Watchmen" director Zack Snyder, Superman is gone for good.

"They asked me to direct a "Superman movie", and I said no," Snyder says. "He's a tricky one nowadays, isn't he? He's the king daddy of all comic-book heroes, but I'm just not sure how you sell that kind of earnestness to a sophisticated audience anymore."

So studios are selling everything else, including bitter themes and obscure heroes.

/film 04/01/16:
Screenwriter David S. Goyer Thought ‘Batman v Superman’ Was a Terrible Idea…Over Ten Years Ago

Eventually, someone is going to write the comprehensive book about the superhero movie boom of the past fifteen years and it’s going to be a fascinating read. In the meantime, all we can do is pick through the rubble, dredge up trivia, and examine the broader strokes of how this genre, and the people making these movies, have changed.

And sometimes, an interesting nugget of information bubbles to the surface. In this case, it’s a quote from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice screenwriter David S. Goyer, who called the mere idea of a Batman vs. Superman movie terrible. Over a decade ago. While promoting Batman Begins. Which he also wrote.


This entire L.A. Times article is fascinating as a piece of Hollywood history. Published on May 8, 2005, a month before Batman Begins arrived in theaters, it explores how Warner Bros. killed the Batman franchise and their many attempts to bring it back to life. Eventually, they put their trust in a young filmmaker named Christopher Nolan, who pitched a left-field, back-to-the-basics approach. This was before Nolan became a widely known and beloved filmmaker. This was three years before Iron Man and The Dark Knight would change the superhero movie landscape forever. And it was eleven years before Batman v Superman, so David S. Goyer could get away with saying this:

Batman Vs. Superman is where you go when you admit to yourself that you’ve exhausted all possibilities. It’s like Frankenstein meets Wolfman or Freddy Vs. Jason. It’s somewhat of an admission that this franchise is on its last gasp.

What’s especially interesting about this quote is that Warner Bros. almost made this movie over ten years ago. A script called Superman Vs. Batman was written and the film was deep into development when it was cancelled, causing a big rift amongst a few producers and executives at the studio. In that context, Goyer’s quote becomes even more interesting. This is from a time when Batman, as a cinematic character and movie franchise, needed saving in a big way and some thought the only way to rehabilitate him was to team him up with Superman. Now, the character feels bulletproof – they brought Batman in to prop up an ailing Superman after Man of Steel underperformed at the box office.

While some will be quick to roll their eyes at Goyer or call him a hypocrite, it’s important to remember that he made this statement over a decade ago. The way comic book movies are made has completely changed the people who make them have evolved as well. So consider this quote something to be amused by rather than something with which to damn Batman v Superman. The movie is already good at that all by itself.

BMD 03/17/16:
Of Course Zack Snyder Wants To Adapt An Ayn Rand Novel
He's working on THE FOUNTAINHEAD.

I've never fully understood Zack Snyder's politics. It's hard to judge them based on the movies he makes because so many of them are adaptations, and he is so faithful to what he's adapting. Yes, 300 is a paean to fascism but that's Miller's source material at work. Snyder isn't really bringing anything that wasn't already in the militaristic, jingoistic comic. I don't think he violates Alan Moore's politics in Watchmen, which are complicated but ultimately humane in way that Miller isn't. His one truly original film, Sucker Punch, makes a lot of effort to be a girl power story that could also be read as pro-choice (it's all about a woman gaining agency over her own body, albeit in the face of a pending lobotomy). Man of Steel is... weird, but it's hard to say where the weirdness comes from. Is it intended, or is it a result of a troubled development process?

But knowing that Snyder loves Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead a lot of things snap into place. Especially things about Man of Steel and Pa Kent's absolutely baffling worldview: Snyder's an Objectivist. He believes in what Objectivists call 'rational self-interest,' which others might call 'radical selfishness,' which is the belief that the ultimate moral duty you have is to make yourself happy. Honestly, all the Pa Kent stuff becomes crystal clear now - Man of Steel is about a superhero who only becomes a superhero when it is in his own self-interest (ie, the planet's about to get destroyed). Otherwise he's happy keeping his powers to himself, seeing no need to use them to help others.

 

[Plaidchuck]

You'd think he'd make Batman more likeable then, considering he is a very Randian character (I.e. he used his own intellect and resources to train himself to mental and physical perfection, he is hunted by authorities/government because he does what they can't do, etc)

 

[Jaxon]

ABC News 07/29/08:
Comic-Con Wrap-up: Are Superheroes Done For?


/film 04/01/16:
Screenwriter David S. Goyer Thought ‘Batman v Superman’ Was a Terrible Idea…Over Ten Years Ago


BMD 03/17/16:
Of Course Zack Snyder Wants To Adapt An Ayn Rand Novel
He's working on THE FOUNTAINHEAD.

Did this Faraci joker watch MoS and miss how Clark saved kids in a bus and guys on an oil rig?

 

[spider-neil]

Did this Faraci joker watch MoS and miss how Clark saved kids in a bus and guys on an oil rig?

Yes, he makes those saves but only 'comes out' when the world is about to be destroyed.

 

[Wise]

Watching it a second time I noticed how bad the fight choreography was in the nightmare sequence.

Batman looks so clunky and slow and the soliders act so obviously choreographed and dumb for pointing guns but not firing.

I did get the sense that they were trying to take Bruce alive, but this isn't implied until the scene where he's tied up so if you're watching it a first time it just looks like a bad fight scene.

They should add a voice over sound byte in the DVD that is essentially a Superman soldier yelling "Take him alive!" or something to that effect.

 

[spider-neil]

Batman looks so clunky and slow and the soliders act so obviously choreographed and dumb for pointing guns but not firing.

I saw none of the trailers (PHEW!) so I didn't get any of the warehouse fight before seeing the movie. When I saw Batman fight in the dream sequence, I was like, uh-oh but that fight was terrible and I was seriously worried this Batman's fight chops would suck. The warehouse put my fears to bed because it was epic.

 

[spider-neil]

I really like some parts of BvS and dislike other parts;

If I were making a script rewrite here are the bits I would change;

1. Open with the battle of Metropolis.
It's epic, powerful and gives Batman all the motivation he needs to take down Superman.
Cut the Wayne Murder entirely. You don't need it and the general audience has seen it too many times for it to be truly impactful.
Try and work in a scene of Lex in rubble and dead people around him.

2. Two scenes to show Batman and Superman differing ideals
The warehouse scene happens really early in the movie and is just an ordinary crime take down, climaxing with Batman branding the criminal (more motivation for Superman to take him down).

At the same time you are going to have a Superman takedown using completely different methods and this is going to juxtapose how utterly different these two heroes are and also give Superman his 'moment'.

Basically you are going to have 3 massive actions scenes in quick succession because after that you are going to have a very long stretch of drama with no action to break it up.

3. The Wayne employee is the end 'boss'
He has no legs and absolutely hates Superman so USE that.
Spray painting the Superman statue is good but blowing up congress is not. Have Lex approach him and tell him he can restore his legs and give him the power to take down Superman.
Also ,you would have a 'human' character with motivations not a CGI mess.

4. Completely cut Lex's desire to get Superman and Batman to fight
Lex's motivation is revenge because his tower and everyone it got killed in the battle of Metropolis
Lex's grand plan is to turn the (legless) employee into Metallo and kill Superman.
Have the divers who retrieve Kryptonite be Lex corp employees. The Krytonite is used to power Metallo but this is completely independent to Batman's plan.

5. Have Batman (NOT Lex) break into Superman's ship
Bruce/Batman is absolutely none the wiser to Kryptonite.
Bruce hacks into the Army mainframe and discovers that the Kryptonian ship weakened Superman for some reason.

In an incredible stealth scene have Batman break into the Kryptonian ship in Metropolis. Have Batman say to the 'ship show me everything'.
This is where Batman gets the knowledge to take Superman down AND give him the dream sequences. This would make sense as to why he is having them, because the ship had to alter his mind to download the information. It's perfectly logical that the ship would have information about Darkseid.

Doomsday is completely cut from the movie.

6. Have Superman as Clark Kent investigate Batman's methods.
The investigation by Lois Lane serves no real meaningful purpose so devote that time to Clark. The more Clark learns about Batman the more it drives him to take Batman down. Have the fight be about a clash of ideologies rather than someone in the shadows pulling strings.

7. Superman has to say what thinks at SOME point in the movie
If you 'must' blow up congress then have Lois debate with Clark and have Lois take the stance of Devil's advocate and ask the questions WE would ask and let Clark answer as honestly as he can.

'Why did you let thousands die?'
'Because I made a choice to save millions'

'What's to stop you taking over the world?'
'That's not how I was raise (explain the Kents etc)'

'Can we trust you?'

THEN, if you blow up congress the AUDIENCE would have already seen what Superman was going to say. I would have it that Metallo is the one to blow up congress covertly to implicate Superman.

8. Batman fights Superman with Kryptonian weapons.
In truth, it wouldn't change much of the battle but none of the battle would contain Kryptonite so when Metallo shows up it will surprise both Batman and Superman.

A cool moment could be Batman using a motherbox and the motherbox is what draws Darkseid to Earth.

9. Have Metallo killing Superman but Batman is conflicted
Batman wanted to take Superman down but not with cold blooded murder.
Metallo takes out Batman pretty quickly (Batman not prepared for him) but regains consciousness in time to save Superman's life.
Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman join forces take down Metallo.

10. No death of Superman
You don't need it and at this present moment into you would get the world wide out pouring of grief. Save it for another movie.

11. Wonder Woman tells Superman and Batman about the other meta humans.
This breaks the rule of 'show don't tell' but I want audience to leave on a high anticipating what's to come. Batman and Superman reluctantly set aside their differences and shake hands because a bigger threat is coming and they have to join forces to stop.

Main cast;
Batman
Superman
Lex


Supporting cast;
Employee
Alfred
Wonder Woman

Cameos;
Lois Lane - The debate scene at their home
Martha Kent - To deliver the speech she give Clark (she doesn't get kidnapped)

 

[Jaxon]

Yes, he makes those saves but only 'comes out' when the world is about to be destroyed.

Actually he came out to avoid war by agreeing by free will to be taken as Zod's prisoner.

 

[metaphysician]

Which forces people to understandably fill in those blanks from previous iterations of the characters.

And causes problems when said prior iterations are incompatible with the current one. . .

 

[Sarcastic Fan]

What went wrong?

Executives that don't understand superheroes or comic books.

Zack Snyder.

 

[spider-neil]

What went wrong?

Executives that don't understand superheroes or comic books.

Zack Snyder.

Does Nolan understand superheroes or comic books?
Understanding the subject has little to do with character development, pacing and story structure.

 

[Flint Marko]

Does Nolan understand superheroes or comic books?
Understanding the subject has little to do with character development, pacing and story structure.

A million times this.
BvS isn't just a bad Superman or Batman movie, it's just a bad movie.

 

[DA_Champion]

Does Nolan understand superheroes or comic books?
Understanding the subject has little to do with character development, pacing and story structure.

Nolan clearly studied the source material in depth.

 

[metaphysician]

That's essentially who Batman was in this movie. They pooped all over one of the most essential core morals of the character.

I'm not sure I can agree. After all, Bernthal put a good deal of effort into realizing and communicating the core morals of the Punisher.