what would you like to see in season 2 of Wolverine and the X-Men

[TheVileOne]

Bronze is better than what I would call season 1 of X-men Evolution which I felt was a yellow ribbon.

 

[Dread]

Bronze is better than what I would call season 1 of X-men Evolution which I felt was a yellow ribbon.

Season One of XM:E only had 13 episodes.

Not denying the flaws. Just saying...it didn't have 26 episodes to play with out of the gate. It had 13. You have to appreciate the opportunity the W&TXM crew had with a 26 episode season order. Not every show gets that, even in the 21st century.

 

[Panthro]

Now I know this is getting off topic, but I've noticed Dread mentioning his disdain of the Cyclops/Jean Grey relationship in just about all incarnations (comics, previous cartoons, etc) as well as mentioning feeling sorry for Rogue in "Evolution" where she was clearly infatuated with Cyclops, who never noticed her (yet another reason for Evo-Rogue to dislike Evo-Jean). I'm curious about Dread's personal opinion of the Rogue/Gambit pairing.

I've noticed some complaints about Cyclops & Jean in the 90s series by others as well, namely finding the couple "boring" in that series. I always thought the idea in that particular series was to make them the flipside of Rogue & Gambit - Cycke & Jean being genuinely happy & content with each other, sometimes acting like the "parents" of the group when Xavier wasn't around (much to the annoyance of Wolverine) while Rogue & Gambit were usually arguing or bickering. Just a thought.

 

[TheVileOne]

My thing is, I just get sick of Cyclops and Jean as this "perfect couple."

 

[Dread]

Now I know this is getting off topic, but I've noticed Dread mentioning his disdain of the Cyclops/Jean Grey relationship in just about all incarnations (comics, previous cartoons, etc) as well as mentioning feeling sorry for Rogue in "Evolution" where she was clearly infatuated with Cyclops, who never noticed her (yet another reason for Evo-Rogue to dislike Evo-Jean). I'm curious about Dread's personal opinion of the Rogue/Gambit pairing.

I've noticed some complaints about Cyclops & Jean in the 90s series by others as well, namely finding the couple "boring" in that series. I always thought the idea in that particular series was to make them the flipside of Rogue & Gambit - Cycke & Jean being genuinely happy & content with each other, sometimes acting like the "parents" of the group when Xavier wasn't around (much to the annoyance of Wolverine) while Rogue & Gambit were usually arguing or bickering. Just a thought.

I never especially cared for Gambit. I don't loath the character, as I do for, say, Cable. But he usually annoyed me, he seemed the type who always was "trying too hard to be cool". Of course, he was a product of his time, the early 90's, when the entire industry was doing that. Some have even called Gambit, "The Longshot of the 90's", as Longshot was basically a mish-mash of what was cool in the 80's, especially "hair metal" looks. I thought he was okay in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, though, as well as in EVOLUTION. He got the least focus in the 90's show out of the main cast.

Rogue and Gambit as a couple had the same problem as many superhero pairings; the individual characters become lost as themselves and simply become, "the couple". Rogue at least hovered around the team for a decade or so before becoming intertwined with Gambit, while Scott and Jean were all but paired up back when Stan Lee was on the title. Part of me sees Jean as something of a Sue Storm Lite, having many of her same character quirks (at least in 1963), only being younger and perhaps less developed. Jean struggles to be a distinct personality in any cast where she is not the token girl; Rogue at least has never had that problem. Gambit is a suave charmer anti-hero, of the sort the X-Men have become defined by. Gambit/Rogue of course always have that tension, the lady-killer with notches at his bedpost dating the Girl Who Cannot Be Touched. I can understand the appeal. They're only annoying when both fail to be characters of their own while dating, but that is the same of most couples.

Rogue's past in the comics or virtually every cartoon version by and large is filled with a lot of pain, loss, misunderstandings and tragedies. She usually always has trust issues with men that she becomes invested in. WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN hasn't shown Rogue's origins but one assumes they are similar to the movie, where she was a loner/drifter who attached to Wolverine, but become frustrated when he would constantly abandon them and her for his biker quests. Of course, by season's end this was forgiven. Wolverine's overcome that. No flaw beats him.

The only other character Rogue had any romantic subplot with besides Gambit was Colossus, and that was in Chris Claremont's first "return" to the franchise in the late 90's (the run that brought us the Neo). Rogue was trying to lead the X-Men and at one point defeated Wolverine in a training exercise to earn the right, much as Storm had to against Cyclops in the 80's (because Claremont likes to repeat himself, to a fault). Rogue suddenly found that Colossus' metal form blocked her absorbing powers and they made out; if I recall Piotr was rather smooth about it. "Let us touch again" and all that. That in itself was a retcon; Rogue had absorbed Colossus' powers just fine in his steel form in the 80's. My No-Prize answer is maybe his powers evolved somewhat since the 80's. Of course this was also during a break from Kitty, who may have been into Pete Wisdom or in college somewhere. It was a little random at the time and was quickly forgotten once Claremont left the book. He never brought it up again when he returned to UXM or any other X-Book. Gambit of course is similar to Rogue herself in some way; his life was full of tragedy and misunderstandings, and he made due in his own way. He has his dark secrets, but so does Rogue. Colossus, aside for romancing jail-bait for a while, is about the opposite. He doesn't have many dark secrets or conflicts of morality as Rogue or Gambit have had, no "deals with a devil". Most of his tragedies came AFTER he joined the X-Men, not before. Colossus has actually had his share of romantic subplot storylines for a character who is almost never considered a "lady's man" like Logan or Remy are. Maybe it's because he is supposedly the strong artistic type; painting a portrait was a nice reason to get Psylocke topless in front of him.

X-MEN EVOLUTION pretty much built a Cyclops/Rogue/Jean triangle out of nothingness all it's own but I found it really worked, at least for the show. Rogue and Scott there had a lot in common, from rough childhoods to powers that made it harder to get close to people, and were dangerous if not controlled. "I've got a bazooka behind each eyeball," Scott claims at one point. While Jean needed to be prodded and hinted by other characters to see Scott as more than a friend, Rogue was quickly touched that he appeared to genuinely care about her, rather than try to exploit her for her power (something even Gambit would end up doing in Season 4). Granted, Jean in XM:E was different herself; she had more spunk than prior incarnations, more of a Big Woman On Campus than the shy generic heroine of past shows. She was an athlete at Bayville High, on their soccer team after all. She did date Dunc, who was BH's version of Flash Thompson (only without the morals). Cyke and Rogue seemed to have genuine chemistry in that show, whereas all the Scott/Jean stuff was standard, right down to shouting each other's names a lot. Jean's powers once bubbled and became uncontrollable, akin to Cyclops' own, but it wasn't the same. They seemed paired by obligation to me. Remember, back in 2000, there was no Emma Frost dynamic; it was just starting in the comics as XM:E was ending in 2003. Steven E. Gordon posted a design for a teenage Frost at his website and one wonders if she may have popped up for a 5th season, which would have aired in 2004 had Kid's WB renewed it. But such is life. Honestly WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN's version of Frost was excellent.

In the 90's series, Scott and Jean were boring. There was the hint of them attaching quickly due to being Xavier's founding students and having been around each other so long that it felt like a progression, but XM:E would probably do that better (even if I felt it was obligatory). But by and large Jean was a standard psychic heroine who would scream and faint every time she used her powers (you could make a drinking game watching that show and taking a shot every time Jean faints, even as Phoenix), and Cyclops was her boyfriend and leader of the team. Phoenix worked I guess as an attempt to show what Jean might be like if not so quiet and reserved, or had Cosmic PMS. Cyclops was stiff on that show, but he did have some moments of character, albeit in some genuinely weird solo episodes. The 90's show was the trend-setter mining what worked in the comics at the time to a more general audience, so I cut it some leeway.

The problem with Jean is while Cyclops, even with clones and demons and being a deadbeat father who always thinks hurling babies into the future is better than trying to raise them himself, managed to stand for years at a time without her, and come into his own a bit. Jean has never really done that herself, and to me she usually is a bit flat. The whole "den-mother" thing usually is done better by Storm, who also can be an assertive all purpose leader heroine goddess thing. There are those who really love Jean, though, for that simplicity or whatever.

My thing is, I just get sick of Cyclops and Jean as this "perfect couple."

Well, they certainly aren't that in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN. Like I said elsewhere, they're the poster children for dysfunctional co-dependence. It's not boring, but much in the same way a raving lunatic on a bus isn't boring, but you may not invite him to dinner either. Cyclops is an esteem lacking wasteland of a man, who can't even get out of bed and shave unless it is for or about Jean. And Jean seems to love a man who she has to constantly, even unconsciously, save from his own incompetence because, um, I guess obsessive love is really hot, and he makes her seem loose and extroverted by comparison.

I don't profess to know how to solve the Scott/Jean/Emma thing without someone seeming like a cad in season two. I'm not a professional writer. About the only way I figure would be to have Jean naturally gravitate towards Wolverine, but I don't believe that is where they are going. In a way it is a shame that Cyclops' obsession hand was overplayed. If it wasn't, the idea of two lovers simply reaching a point where they knew each other well enough to either break off or get married, and they both leaned in different directions, and it would feel human and real, even distinct in superhero cartoons where usually lovers are "destined" since episode one. Even SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN has made very clear that Peter and Gwen are meant to be, and sidetracks with MJ or Liz are just that; side-tracks. That isn't the same as, say, Cyclops realizing that his heart isn't with Jean anymore. But you can't do that. It will make all of Cyclops's laments and selfish acting out without Jean in Season One completely worthless and paint him as a cad who can't make up his mind and mindlessly sabotages his own team while he waxes and wanes. Had he learned to stand without Jean, if only for a moment, in Season One, maybe this wouldn't be. But he didn't. The question is whether the writers will want to make Scott seem into a super-cad in Season 2 just to bring back Frost, who is clearly more interesting than Jean.

Things would have been so much easier if Jean had bit it in Season One. I understand why they didn't have that happen, but it sure leaves a bit to have to patch together in Season 2. I don't envy the task.

This show has never wasted a chance to make Scott look like a selfish dip whenever they had to, so I'm almost betting on the "cad" option. Quite a few people never want to see Jean and Logan together, but that triangle used to be there in the comics, and one could make quite a narrative, at least for a cartoon that isn't attached to the comic lore, of Scott and Jean perhaps working as a couple until they both filled out and figured out what they wanted in life; Cyclops a more assertive woman who isn't as easily distracted by bikers, and Jean a more extroverted guy with a wild side. An episode with Jean/Wolverine/Cyclops/Frost doing something as X-Men with this sort of tension almost writes itself, doesn't it? That assumes Season 2 is better able to balance the character bits with the explosions and not feel one has to exist without the other. I doubt that is the tract being taken, though, with Logan/Jean. Logan's too pure for it.

 

[Panthro]

Interesting post Dread. An engaging read, as always. I'm starting to wonder if Jean as a character would have been better off being the one with the optic blasts that can't be turned off opposite telekinetic telepathic Scott, though I guess an introverted woman with built in death rays would have been too "edgy" for 1963.

As for why some people like Scott with Jean, well, here's one explanation that I found on a different forum outside the SHH by a Ms. Lucy Glitter -

I never got into Emma being with Scott. I have read the comics since I was a little babe, and when Scott got with Emma, my heart almost broke. If you read the first ever comics, Scott has and always will be a pretty big, "emo". No one could look into his eyes, and he was so scared he would hurt someone, that he pushed away everyone socially. Jean came along and helped him through that, made him feel more human and less like the monster he thought he was. She made him realise his sole purpose is not to fight bad, but also to live (as corny as that sounds).

Scott has not changed. Scott is Scott without Jean. This is what he has always been like. Period. Jean brought out the niceness in him. Without her, what the hell is he going to do? He has a lot of issues, yes, and Jean has always been there for him. Imagine what that would be like. Just try, and then tell me he has been changed for the worse. Love does spectacular things to oneself.

 

[Mad Ones]

That's pretty much why I like them too. I like that they're best friends, and have complimented each other since they were teenagers. I love the Phoenix Saga, so that plays a big part in why I liked them so much. Even in Phoenix: Endsong I was touched when Jean said goodbye to Scott and called him her best friend after all the crap they've been through. If she ever comes back in the comics I hope they still have a decent relationship (although I admit it is much better for the both of them to be separate from each other).

The biggest problem they face is that they are sometimes defined by each other and that relatisonship, and I don't like that. Which is why I don't mind Scott being with someone else right now. He has shown that he is passed the puppy dog stage of his life. But they don't have to defined by each other like they are in WatX.

I don't find them boring, and don't know why they have to be "interesting" anyway. Can't they just be together, without any angst or drama? In the comics, Scott's relationship with Emma is a bunch of snide comments, sex, and secrets. That may be interesting, but I'm not a fan of it. I'm not saying they don't have their good moments (I liked Whedon's take on them).

But as for this show, I think I'm probably in the minority here, but I hope they just leave Scott and Jean alone together. But that's just me. It would be a nightmare for me if it ended up being Wolverine/Jean and Emma/Scott. Ugh.

 

[Dread]

"An engaging read," thanks. Sometimes I just think I prattle on.

I understand these sympathies and break-downs of the Jean/Scott dynamic. But that's also my problem; Jean can't simply exist to buck up Cyclops. She has to be a character unto herself. She's been a den-mother of sorts as a character, but that role is often usually played by Storm, who also wears other hats (co-leader, "goddess", etc). In order for a relationship to really work, each character has to be defined as they are and work as themselves, as well as within the relationship. One or the other and it seems a little underwhelming. Like real life.

Scott, whether as a stoic leader muscling through grief or as a sad sack moper, at least has stood alone with Jean for a while. It's Jean that hasn't stood alone without him. The Phoenix Saga at best worked as a saga telling how a simple heroine could become corrupted by an influence, something the comics complicated. I've never said Jean has to be a B**** or "evil" or vampish to be a character. What she should be, though, is more than Cyclops' anchor. Honestly I feel decades of that has hampered her potential. The Phoenix stuff can work for a while, but only if you know who Jean was beforehand; that is why is worked in the 90's show, when that happened in Season 3, and felt a little arbitrary in W&TXM, where you barely meet Jean beyond flashbacks.

X-MEN: EVOLUTION I thought made some strides at attempting to make Jean a standalone character first, who eventually gravitated towards Cyclops.

One could say under the influence of Frost, Cyclops has become more ruthless at best. He's having fewer qualms about ordering X-Force and/or Wolverine to kill people, for instance. He has more of an "all bets are off" attitude. And he's all but repeated the mistakes he's made with Cable with Hope.

In terms of Season 1 of this show, Emma Frost was a sympathetic character, if imperfect and even at times vampish, but still interesting. While Jennifer Hale played Jean well, she was a cipher, a princess to be rescued. Frost wasn't nearly as wicked as the comic version was until GENERATION X. While Jean was the figure always there for Scott in the beginning, I thought that Frost not only supported him, but probably encouraged him to be more assertive. She also wasn't in any way interested in trading flirts with Wolverine. If Season 2 is to have more Scott/Jean, then they need to make Jean more of a character than "Scott's girlfriend". Honestly any girl should be more than someone's girlfriend.

 

[Dread]

((double post))

 

[TheVileOne]

Since this seems to be the official season 2 thread, here's the link to my interview with Steven Blum and Chris Yost where we talk about the show and some other animated shows:

http://blog.toonzone.net/blogs/44/s...steve-blum-and-christ-yost-interview-session/

Following the Marvel Animation panel showcasing some excellent looking upcoming animated projects from the House of Ideas, Toon Zone was able to catch up with superstar voice actor, Steven Blum, and Marvel Animation writer, Chris Yost. Steven Blum currently voices Wolverine in just about every Marvel animation or video game project. Chris Yost is one of the staff writers for Wolverine And The X-men and his experience with both the comic book world and animation world is impeccable as he currently co-writes X-Force for Marvel Comics with Craig Kyle. Chris' previous animation credits also include the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series, Hulk Vs., X-men Evolution, Next Avengers, and The Batman. Please note that all questions asked by Toon Zone in this session are marked by either Toon Zone or TZ.


Click on any thumbnail image to enlarge.



Steven Blum and Chris Yost



Chris Yost



Toon Zone: Steven, I don't know if you've seen the teaser/test for the Studio Madhouse Wolverine animation, but would you want to do it?

Steven Blum: Yes, of course. I don't know if they are going to consider me correct for the part. We'll see. It's a completely different take on him obviously. But you know how I feel about anime in general and put that together with Marvel, it’s like the Golden Compass.

For Chris, what's the thinking of bringing new characters in on the Wolverine And The X-Men series, what's the balance?

Chris Yost: Well, I think with a property like X-Men it’s such a rich, big universe. You're always going to focus on the core: Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, the group that we know and love. And then to see familiar faces like Psylocke or Scarlet Witch, all these characters come in and interact with them. You know the characters we know and love are kind of like the gateway to meet new people. So as a fan, the more people that we can get in there the better, but we are always going to keep our focus on the main characters.

SB: I'm happy about that.

TZ: Chris, I think the Super Hero Hype Forum fans will be happy to know about Colossus coming back. Early on in the first season, we saw a little bit of Colossus before he went away. Was that a very deliberate choice to put him away for a while and put him back later?

CY: Yeah because I think with Wolverine And The X-Men we had an opportunity to show you the X-Men in the world as we know it. We know the X-Men. We know the Danger Room, ran around and did all this stuff, and then immediately the show turned on its head by the events of the first episode, like everything blows up and everybody's different. Wolverine's is now in charge. Scott's all brooding. Jean and Xavier are gone so I think it was a very conscious decision to show normal and then get in to what the show is going to be.

TZ: Can you talk about what Josh mentioned at all with the re-introductory story for Colossus in the second season?

CY: It's pretty early. I think it’s definitely going to be a surprising and great part of the second season, but its pretty early.

Steve, I know this probably isn't a decision you'd make, but reading "Old Man Logan," that would be a great direct to DVD movie. Is that something you've read, or is there something you've read that if they'd ask you, I'd love to voice Wolverine in this type of DVD.

SB: I'll voice Wolverine in any incarnation they create. I'm a voice ****e, rule 1. And secondly, I love just everything X-Men and pretty much everything Marvel, and just to have the opportunity to explore different versions of this character is just great for me. I hope the fans can digest it, that's always my hope, that they'll buy it. As long as its believable and works for the character, I'm good.

CY: Yeah. "Old Man Logan" is great. I mean essentially Unforgiven with Wolverine. Its so rich. I'd love to see it animated.

SB: It works for my age. *Laughs* Finally, something age appropriate.

TZ: Chris, I freak out every month when I read X-Force, and I'm very excited about this Wolverine/Domino story. Can you talk about that at all?

CY: Yeah. It’s a three issue limited series called X-Force: Sex and Violence --

SB: Nice.

CY: -- And it delivers on that promise. So, Domino is originally a mercenary and she's got some stuff in her life that kind of comes back to bite her. And Wolverine gets pulled into it, and its kind of like the two of them kind of like bickering and fighting for like three issues.

TZ: Anything else besides bickering and fighting?

CY: . . . A little bit. Issue 1 is violence. Issue 2 is sex. And then Issue 3 is a magic combination of the two. In all seriousness, those two characters have a history together you know in that they've gotten physical before in more ways than one and in the normal X-Force book, you know we've got a lot of big stories and we don't have a lot of time for the character work, you know? But in Sex and Violence, it’s just those two characters for the most part, we really get to see their relationship.

TZ: I'm really excited because I think that's a great relationship to look at. And I think Wolverine and Domino getting together is awesome. And why not see it in the animated series as well because Domino is also in the show? We can see Steven having something with Domino.

SB: I'm available *laughs*.

CY: You never know. In animation, usually our motto is, "There's no time for love, Dr. Jones," but I think fans love to see that stuff so you never know.



Obviously, Wolverine is a character that can go pretty extreme like in Hulk Vs., but obviously you're doing a show aimed at ages 6-11 on Wolverine And The X-Men. Is that something you're doing in the variations? Are you toning it back, are you worried about scaring anybody? And same thing for the writing, do you think about it differently or is it just positioned a different way?

SB: I have to trust these guys. Honestly, I'm just the actor. I'm just interpreting their child basically. I'm always mindful of that, but my opinion doesn't always -- barely mean that much in the grander scale of things. Marvel Super Hero Squad obviously is very much for younger kids. Wolverine And The X-Men we got to take a little bit further and deeper and nastier then on previous animations, so a lot of that has to do with the writing and where their directing is.

CY: Yeah. The great thing about Wolverine is that he can be in Super Hero Squad and be for young kids, and he can be in Wolverine And The X-Men and be like in the middle range, and then he can be in Hulk Vs. Wolverine . . . and you immediately think this guy's got knives on his hands, he's really inappropriate for children. But you know, children respond to it. Children love Wolverine, and there's a good reason for that. He's a hero. There's more to him than just violence.

Steven Blum

TZ: Steven, you are famous for a lot of the work in anime that you've done, and recently the industry has gone through a big contraction. Right now we see you doing a lot more original animation and pre-lay animation. Have you lately maybe had to do some less anime work and focus more on the pre-lay work?

SB: Well, not necessarily by choice. A lot of it is going away for us in the acting community. A lot of it is going to Canada or non-union areas, and so I'm not allowed to work on it. I love doing anime, that's where I was born and bred. And its certainly not for the money, and it's great to be doing a lot of original animation now . . . I can pay the bills a little bit better working on that, but I do miss working on anime as much as I did before. It's my first love, and it makes me sad that there isn't as big a financial market for it.

TZ: Now that you've played Wolverine for over 5-6 years, do you really feel like you know the character and maybe know something about Wolverine no one else does?

SB: I don't know if I know more about anything more than anyone else does. Especially when I come to conventions like this, I feel like everybody knows my own life better than I do. But with Wolverine in particular, there's so many elements that I resonate with personally that just makes it an incredibly satisfying character for me to play. I just love you know the complete dichotomy of a guy who can heal from anything but emotion he can never heal. That alone is enough to work on besides everything else that he goes through . . . so its hard for me to say because I don't know what everybody else feels and knows about him but personally I'm very connected to him more so than any other character I've ever been involved with.

TZ: And you both have really cool voices.

SB: *Laughs* Fortunately *laughs*.

TZ: Chris, I know you can't get into it much, but are you working on the new Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes series?

CY: Yes.

TZ: Are you confident you can undo all the damage and bad memories done from the 1990's Avengers: United They Stand series?

CY: From minute 1, I will say yes. I love the show with all my heart, and I am fully confident that the tainting of the 90's series will be fully erased.

TZ: Steve, do you have a favorite X-babe on Wolverine And The X-Men while working on the show? I like Emma, I'm just going to say right now. I like Emma the best.

SB: *laughs*

CY: I like Jean.

SB: Well, Jean is probably the most interesting all the way around. It's hard for me to say without getting in trouble honestly *laughs*.

TZ: Kari [Wahlgren, the voice of Emma Frost] told me she likes Wolverine.

SB: She does?

TZ: Yeah.

SB: Kari did an amazing job, actually. I never heard her do that accent before, and we were all blown away by what she came up with for Emma Frost, amazing. Everybody's so great on the show.

TZ: Chris, how did you like your time working on the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series?

CY: I loved it. It was great. It was crazy. I did 17 episodes of Turtles and it was tremendous fun. Oddly, like Wolverine And The X-Men, they really kind of cut loose. It was more in tone with the original comic books. It wasn't all cowabunga and pizza.

TZ: Even though it was still appropriate for kids, it felt much more mature.

CY: Yeah, you know its just like with Wolverine. Leonardo's got katanas and he can take people's heads off, but you know he just didn't.

TZ: At Marvel, you guys do such great job with these animated shows and the DVD movies, and now Cartoon Network feels like they don't even want to show cartoons as much anymore. With all of that, has it been harder to get these shows on the air, and has Nicktoons been a good partner for Marvel?

CY: Nicktoons has been incredible. They really believe in Marvel as a brand and Wolverine And The X-Men has been incredibly successful for them. They're now putting out Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes. We expect the same kind of success about that.

TZ: We finally get to see all of it.

CY: All of it including the Terminus episode which is my favorite of all of them for that show. They've been a tremendous partner. Personally, I believe in animation. I think they're things you can do in animation like Wolverine And The X-Men, the scope and epic scale of that story, you're never going to see that in a movie ever. And animation is the place where the imagination of the comics books--

TZ: You can see real Deadpool.

CY: You can see real Deadpool. He talks and everything. You can see these things in animation you can't see in live action.

TZ: Chris do you ever look at the message boards and feedback for X-Force or the cartoons?

CY: Absolutely.

TZ: Do you see ever see sometimes they overreact because in X-Force they think you are killing all the characters and they don't want to wait and read the whole story?

CY: You know the thing about the internet is that its anonymous, it’s faceless, and people say such outrageous things just because they can. And you get a little down on it and go like, ohhh, but when you come to something like this convention and you meet the people like face to face and they love it. Everyone here is here because they love it, and they're so excited. It’s so great to meet the fans and talk to people. I've had people -- I got a death threat because of something I did, and I come here and I've never had one negative word to me. So it’s like I go on the internet and check things out. It’s nice to get feedback, but you can only put so much stock in it because it’s such a different venue.

TZ: Thank you so much for your time.

SB: Thank you. It was fun.

Wolverine And The X-Men starring Steven Blum as Wolverine and written by Chris Yost currently airs on Nicktoons. Marvel Super Hero Squad once again featuring Steven Blum as Wolverine debuts in October on Cartoon Network.

 

[Panthro]

"An engaging read," thanks. Sometimes I just think I prattle on.

It's only prattle if it's boring, which your posts are not.

I understand these sympathies and break-downs of the Jean/Scott dynamic. But that's also my problem; Jean can't simply exist to buck up Cyclops. She has to be a character unto herself. She's been a den-mother of sorts as a character, but that role is often usually played by Storm, who also wears other hats (co-leader, "goddess", etc). In order for a relationship to really work, each character has to be defined as they are and work as themselves, as well as within the relationship. One or the other and it seems a little underwhelming. Like real life.

Scott, whether as a stoic leader muscling through grief or as a sad sack moper, at least has stood alone without Jean for a while. It's Jean that hasn't stood alone without him. The Phoenix Saga at best worked as a saga telling how a simple heroine could become corrupted by an influence, something the comics complicated. I've never said Jean has to be a B**** or "evil" or vampish to be a character. What she should be, though, is more than Cyclops' anchor. Honestly I feel decades of that has hampered her potential. The Phoenix stuff can work for a while, but only if you know who Jean was beforehand; that is why is worked in the 90's show, when that happened in Season 3, and felt a little arbitrary in W&TXM, where you barely meet Jean beyond flashbacks.

You ever get the feeling that Jean became a victim of her own most famous storyline?

I don't find them boring, and don't know why they have to be "interesting" anyway. Can't they just be together, without any angst or drama?

I think the 90s show might have been the closest we'll ever come to that (discounting the Phoenix sagas of course, which were for all intents and purposes Jean's "focus" arcs). You could probably say that about a lot of other long standing comic book couples.

 

[Dread]

That's quite an interview, Vile. I did like the Colossus and TMNT mentions; guess with all our bickering we find some things to agree on after all. Granted, to be fair, at least 3 out of every 5 suggestions for Season 2 in this topic was usually, "more Colossus", so it wasn't just me.

It's only prattle if it's boring, which your posts are not.

Thanks.

You ever get the feeling that Jean became a victim of her own most famous storyline?

Yes, if only because that story has been endlessly complicated, imitated, and trudged over.

Some will disagree, but I don't think Jean was an especially layered heroine before the Phoenix, and the Phoenix itself is more of something that happens to her than it is about her. The Hulk's dynamic is similar, but then again both Banner and Hulk are probably more defined (and nuttier). Jean doesn't need to become vampish, but I do think she could have used some better writing to flesh her out without the Phoenix. I mean Claremont did that almost immediately in the 70's.

I think the 90s show might have been the closest we'll ever come to that (discounting the Phoenix sagas of course, which were for all intents and purposes Jean's "focus" arcs). You could probably say that about a lot of other long standing comic book couples.

True, but Jean's been attached to Cyclops since the 60's. The only period she was without him was when he seemingly died in the late 90's/early 2000's after "The Twelve", and that didn't last long.

 

[Panthro]

Speaking of deaths, what does Marvel have this thing with murdering Jean? It's a bit morbid.

 

[Mad Ones]

Yeah, Jean's died in nearly every one of her incarnations in other mediums. I can't think of very many examples where she hasn't died, or gave the impression of her maybe being dead. The comics, movies, Marvel Ultimate Alliance video game, and two animated series. Yeesh.

I hope we see more of Angel/Archangel. I loved him in the first season, but I wanted to see more of him. I hope that once the brainwashing ends, he becomes a more prominent member of the X-men. Maybe he could even have a hand in defeating Apocalypse and Sinister. And I want to see more flashbacks with the Original Five members.

And I hope this Apocalypse storyline isn't too painful. I absolutely hate him in the comics. But I actually loved him as a threat in X-men Evolution, and the same people are working on this 'toon so it might be OK. I want to see at least some other more interesting sub-plots, though.

 

[Dread]

Speaking of deaths, what does Marvel have this thing with murdering Jean? It's a bit morbid.

To be fair, she didn't die in X-MEN EVOLUTION. There was one episode where her powers flared out of control in Season 2, but she didn't croak. Of course the series finale alluded to Dark Phoenix in her future, but that was just a "renew us, Kid's WB" type vision.

 

[TheVileOne]

Claremont and co. wanted to kill her, and then editorial or other writers keep wanting to bring her back.

 

[Dread]

Claremont and co. wanted to kill her, and then editorial or other writers keep wanting to bring her back.

Not quite. According to "legend", during the Dark Phoenix saga, Claremont DIDN'T want to kill Jean; merely have the Shi'ar punish her with depowering or blinding or something. The EIC at the time, though, felt that was too light a punishment since she had destroyed a solar system, and urged Claremont to kill her off outright. Of course, years later, they would want to bring her back alive, and then came the "Phoenix just impersonated her and kept the real Jean in a cocoon at the bottom of the bay, only Jean is still kinda/sorta connected to Phoenix, blah blah" that would come later.

Moral? Just as in modern comics, continuity is screwed up by editorial having no clue what they are doing a year or two into the future, so were Silver and Bronze Age comics.

 

[gkokujin]

what would i like to see?

less wolverine

 

[gkokujin]

honestly i do want to see more of the OTHER Xmen than the core mutants.
and LESS Magneto.

i'm sick of Magneto in the movies, I'm SICK of magneto in the cartoons and comics.

 

[TheVileOne]

Just FYI, for SDCC, I had an excellent interview with Greg Johnson, and it was excellent because Johnson I feel directly and strongly address many of the hardcore fans criticisms against the show including the lack of Colossus, Scott's behavior, Wolverine's hypcorisy, too much Wolverine, etc.

I'll have a link once Toon Zone puts it up.

 

[Dread]

Just FYI, for SDCC, I had an excellent interview with Greg Johnson, and it was excellent because Johnson I feel directly and strongly address many of the hardcore fans criticisms against the show including the lack of Colossus, Scott's behavior, Wolverine's hypcorisy, too much Wolverine, etc.

I'll have a link once Toon Zone puts it up.

Sounds awesome. I think he gave an interview for the BEYOND EVOLUTION website near the end of X-MEN EVOLUTION's run on Kid's WB and it was good stuff.

Toonzone has posted it here:

http://news.toonzone.net/articles/3...views-greg-johnson-on-wolverine-and-the-x-men

 

[TheVileOne]

edit, dp.

 

[TheVileOne]

http://news.toonzone.net/articles/3...views-greg-johnson-on-wolverine-and-the-x-men

At the San Diego Comic-Con 2009, we caught up with one of the Marvel Animation's main writers, Greg Johnson, after the Marvel Animation panel. Johnson has been a driving story force for Marvel Animation, having worked on Ultimate Avengers, Ultimate Avengers II, Iron Man, and X-Men Evolution, and is currently one of the driving forces behind Wolverine and the X-Men, the latest series starring Marvel's mutant superhero team. In talking with Johnson, we finally got to address many hardcore fans' specific criticisms of show Wolverine and the X-Men:

TOON ZONE NEWS: One year ago fans got to see the pilot of the series at Comic Con and the show had just got picked up by Nicktoons. I remember first reading about the series in development several years ago. Is it a relief that all this time and effort put into Wolverine and the X-Men is finally paying off?

GREG JOHNSON: It is an absolute relief to finally put this show out there. I’ve been living with it for years, starting with its development. Craig [Kyle] and I knew we were trying something new, and for the most part, we were left alone to pursue it, but we also knew that the true test would be in the viewership numbers. Nicktoons understood the importance of a big launch for a series that had a season arc, and they really sold the show as an event. As a result, the numbers have been huge for them, and pretty much holding steady even through the breaks. When the show started airing overseas in other languages, and hastily written summaries were appearing online, it was so disheartening. We really endeavored to create an X-Men experience for the fans that unfolded over the course of 26 episodes.

TZN: I talked with Chris Yost a little bit about this, but Colossus was in a lot of the early promo materials for the show, and he's only seen for a short time in the first episode of Wolverine and the X-Men. Josh Fine announced that Colossus will come back and have a larger role in season 2. Some fans were disappointed we saw so little of Colossus in the new show. Was the time just not right to bring Colossus back into the story fold for the first season where the X-Men have been broken down and need to be rebuilt from the ground up?

JOHNSON: We really did plan to weave Colossus into the show, and so he ended up in a lot of the promotional material as a result. Not to mention he looks good in the team lineup. Basically, we developed the overall season arc during the development phase, as well as the characters we wanted to focus on. And then Craig Kyle and I, usually joined by Josh Fine, and sometimes Chris Yost, would meet weekly to toss around episode ideas that would fit into that arc. And each week, Colossus would come up. We all wanted him back on the team, but we also wanted to make sure he had an exciting re-entry. Nothing ever felt good enough. That said, we did find a very cool place to bring him in for season two, and that involves his sister, Illyana.

TZN: I'm very excited about the prospect of Deadpool in this series with Nolan North reprising the character. Since the new X-Men show has generally been able to get away with a lot content wise, do you expect to push the limits with Deadpool making his debut on the show?

JOHNSON: Deadpool is a very funny character for a lot of reasons, not just the shocking comments. Yeah, we still push the limits with him, more so than most characters in the cast, but we can’t go PG-13. When you watch him, there will be no doubt that it’s Deadpool.

TZN: Some fans have say that Wolverine acts "hypocritical" at points in the show in going after Cyclops for doing things on his own, but then going off alone to investigate Weapon X.

JOHNSON: You’re likely referring to the episode “eXcessive Force” which aired on Nicktoons recently. On the one hand we have Wolverine haunted by his past, and drawn to discover the truth. On the other hand, we have Cyclops haunted by the loss of Jean, and drawn to discover the truth. Whenever Wolverine goes off on is own, he endeavors to keep everyone else out of it. His edge is that he can survive almost anything. When Cyclops is ready to go pick a fight with Sinister in his quest to find Jean, it’s clear to Wolverine that this is not going to end well. Cyclops had just proven how reckless he is by the way he went after Harpoon. In Wolverine’s mind, Cyclops wouldn’t survive a clash with Sinister. Maybe the old tactical, level-headed Cyclops would have, but not this emotional wreck. He tells him to back off. Cyclops ignores him. So when Cyclops gets pulled into Sinister’s trap, Wolverine – as the leader of the X-Men - has to go in and get him. That’s why Wolverine lectures him about either being on the team or not. At first glance it may seem like a double standard, but Wolverine’s job is to keep the team together and focused on their ultimate goal – to save the future. Wolverine believes his side excursions don’t threaten the team or the goal. Cyclops’ excursion did.

TZN: I feel Rogue's story is one of the strongest ones in the show. However, I also feel that maybe on Rogue's part there could be a little deep seated frustration to Wolverine then when he just "leaves." Do you think there could be any frustration because Rogue likes Wolverine and Wolverine does not acknowledge those feelings, or is it what Steve Blum says that it’s more like a big brother/little sister thing?

JOHNSON: Steve Blum is correct. When I was writing the scene in the first episode where Logan says goodbye to her and she gets angry with him, I made it a priority not to insinuate any romantic feelings. Rogue is an outsider with feelings of abandonment, and Logan understands her better than anyone. When he goes off on his own, she always feels left behind. That’s not to say these familial feelings can’t become something else later on, but that’s not what we were going for here.

TZN: Forge in the series gets a new take in making him younger and a bit of a geekier scientist type. Forge's personality gives a little levity to the series, and Wolverine takes great twisted comedic pleasure in torturing Forge by doing things like scratching the Blackbird. Why the change to Forge's personality from the older, wiser Native American type of character?

JOHNSON: If I was forced to make Forge a dramatic character, I’d probably have opted not to include him in the cast. That’s because there’s no shortage of drama in Wolverine and the X-Men, and keeping characters light whenever possible is essential. So when we decided we needed a fun character to act as a wrench jockey, we opted to lighten Forge up instead of inserting someone else. Yeah, it’s a different take on him, but he’s so enjoyable to be around. I expected to take some heat for this, and I’m sure certain fans prefer the more established personality, but from what I can tell, most enjoy this version.

TZN: Some fans think that the writing stacks the deck too much to make Wolverine look like "Grandpa X-Man" and make Cyclops look weak for abandoning the team over losing Jean. However, Cyclops' behavior in the show is similar to how he's behaved in the comics before, like leaving the X-Men after Jean's "death" in the 80's, or marrying Madelyne Pryor and having a child with her but then dumping them the second he found out Jean was alive. Do you think some of the writing might have made the show too much of a Wolverine "lovefest?"

JOHNSON: In early discussions between the co-producers, the original idea was for this to be a Wolverine solo series. But it was quickly determined that it would be a more viable project by including the X-Men as well. What was agreed upon was the idea to feature Wolverine in a new way, by putting the anti-hero in charge. So with that model, it would have been very easy to make this series all about Wolverine’s exploits, with the X-Men backing him up. Obviously that’s not what we did.

When I was asked to pitch my take on this, I came in with the basic concept of Days of Future Past, but with Xavier in the future. Craig and I then developed it into what it is now. It was always important to us that we keep Wolverine a little off his mark as the leader, while he deals with an unknown past that continues to dog his heels. He’s still a surly, short-tempered guy forced to keep this team together when he’d much rather ride off and leave it all behind. He’s the same character, given new responsibilities. I don’t see him as a Grandpa X-Man. If this truly were a Wolverine “lovefest” then we wouldn’t have at least a dozen episodes where other characters are the main focus.

As for Cyclops, I found him much more interesting as a heavily burdened character. We could have very easily made this a pissing contest between him and Wolverine over leadership. Then he would have been angry all the time, going nose to nose with Wolverine, and as a result, probably becoming unlikable. But seeing him at his lowest, watching him struggle with his emotions and his responsibilities, while we cheer for him to become the hero we all know he is, that’s an arc worth tuning in for.

Toon Zone News would like to thank Greg Johnson for taking the time to talk with us again, and to Lionsgate for arranging our time with him. Johnson's work on the Marvel direct-to-video animated movies is available now on DVD and Blu-ray disc, along with vols. 1 and 2 of Wolverine and the X-Men. New episodes of Wolverine and the X-Men will begin broadcasting on August 1, 2009, on Nicktoons network.

Major thanks for Greg for speaking with me. And really all the Marvel animation voice actors, writers, and producers are incredibly awesome people. My one regret is not interviewing Jamie Simone (voice over director). I was talking to him at the Marvel booth and I think he would've made a great interview.

I also have to thank Dread because I feel his amazing, thought out and well written arguments about the show inspired I feel the direction of my questions and topics for my Convention interviews. Even though while I don't agree with many of Dread's points, I wanted to see how the creators felt about the ideas and arguments fans such as Dread has brought up before. And not to single Dread out either because other fans have expressed similar views about the show as well.

 

[DMRadz]

When does the 2nd season start airing?

 

[TheVileOne]

DMRadz, probably not for a while. They are only about halfway through season 1 in the states. From the tone and speaking with the guys at Con, it sounds like they are just starting to do season 2 and haven't recorded it yet.

In another interview I think Johnson stated once season 1 is over they will talk more about season 2.