Ant-Man What you didn't like about Ant-Man - Flaws/Critiques

[JtheDreamer]

Yes, I found that lame. The movie is seriously going with "she cannot suit up, even though she's the most competent qualified, because daddy said so and has issue." LAME!!

Also, while it may makes sense for him, it doesn't make sense that she' just go along with it. It's established that not only is she highly capable and intelligent, but she has no problem defying her dad's wishes. So it'd make much more sense FOR HER to steal the suit and go, "I can do this better than anyone, I'm GOING to help Scott and just try and stop me old man."

And that's another issues. The defense for it is "well it makes sense for Hank to feel that way" or "it fits Hank's character," and so on. It's all about HIM and HIS issues. It takes a lot of agency away from HER and when you bring up that it doesn't fit HER character, people just kind of try to brush that aside without really addressing it. And having Hank just "gift" her with the suit at the end, giving her "permission" to do this basically, only makes this more obvious.

If you thought it worked, that's perfectly fine. But, while I did enjoy the film overall, this was the biggest flaw in it for me and it sticks out like a sore thumb.

He gifted her with the suit because it was no longer about what Hank wanted anymore. That's called character development.

Hope came back to her father once she learned of what Cross was up to. However, she could not outright disobey him because they needed each other to help put a stop to it. Not to mention this is a father and daughter we're talking about. two people trying to mend fences. The last time she went against her father, she cost him his job as chairman of Pym Tech. So she's partially at fault for everything

Your reasons for it being lame are some of the flimsiest I've seen on here. Within the context of the movie the reasons were fine. This sounds more like "Whaaaa but I wanted to see it this way" kind of thing.

 

[gdw]

Don't forget, Hank had the suit locked up until he had Scott steal it, which Hank monitored the whole time.

So, HOW exactly did you expect Hope to steal it to go against her father int he first place?

 

[JtheDreamer]

Don't forget, Hank had the suit locked up until he had Scott steal it, which Hank monitored the whole time.

So, HOW exactly did you expect Hope to steal it to go against her father int he first place?

Good point. Forgot about that.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Yes, I found that lame. The movie is seriously going with "she cannot suit up, even though she's the most competent qualified, because daddy said so and has issue." LAME!!

Also, while it may makes sense for him, it doesn't make sense that she' just go along with it. It's established that not only is she highly capable and intelligent, but she has no problem defying her dad's wishes. So it'd make much more sense FOR HER to steal the suit and go, "I can do this better than anyone, I'm GOING to help Scott and just try and stop me old man."

And that's another issues. The defense for it is "well it makes sense for Hank to feel that way" or "it fits Hank's character," and so on. It's all about HIM and HIS issues. It takes a lot of agency away from HER and when you bring up that it doesn't fit HER character, people just kind of try to brush that aside without really addressing it. And having Hank just "gift" her with the suit at the end, giving her "permission" to do this basically, only makes this more obvious.

If you thought it worked, that's perfectly fine. But, while I did enjoy the film overall, this was the biggest flaw in it for me and it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Cross wanted Hope by his side during the suit unveiling, and that was the exact moment when the 'Heist' was gonna take place, how was she gonna suit up when she would need to be with him in Person?

 

[Supa]

Honestly, it felt more like the narrative was trying to come up with reasons for her not to suit up then any legitimate reasons.
"Oh, we need someone on the inside who he trusts. Oh, he just came over to our house and obviously suspects something, hmm."
"You can't use the suit because your mother died and I can't trust you with how. Oh, but now we'll have a heartfelt admission about your mother, because I trust you and I love you. You still can't wear the suit though."

"Oh, it'd also be weird to just introduce another hero into the climax like that, ignoring the fact we already set her up in a flashback anyway"

 

[JtheDreamer]

Honestly, it felt more like the narrative was trying to come up with reasons for her not to suit up then any legitimate reasons.
"Oh, we need someone on the inside who he trusts. Oh, he just came over to our house and obviously suspects something, hmm."
"You can't use the suit because your mother died and I can't trust you with how. Oh, but now we'll have a heartfelt admission about your mother, because I trust you and I love you. You still can't wear the suit though."

"Oh, it'd also be weird to just introduce another hero into the climax like that, ignoring the fact we already set her up in a flashback anyway"

Wuuuuuut?

 

[TeeKay]

Cross wanted Hope by his side during the suit unveiling, and that was the exact moment when the 'Heist' was gonna take place, how was she gonna suit up when she would need to be with him in Person?

You were actually paying attention during the film?

Spoiler

 

[The Guard]

The problem is when they play at having deeper themes/ideas, but doesn't commit to them. If it were just like, say GOTG, which as a fun, rompey space-opera/comedy and didn't try to be anything more than that, then people would have no trouble accepting it on that level (and most people did). But when you go, "it's about father/daughter relationship, but it's kind of generic," or "we want a strong female character, but she's rhathe similar to ones that we've already done repeatedly, oh and she cannot actually suit up/play a big factor in the climax for lame reasons," or "Hank's pain at his wife's death is supposed to be a big thing,e don't spend time on it or her," and stuff like that, then people notice it. And then you have the generic/undercooked villain who's motivations are hard to understand. You're audience shouldn't be doing a lot of "well here's my take on why he went nuts," or "here's what I THINK probably happened," etc fill in the blanks to get what his deal is. That's just sloppy writing.

It has nothing to do with expected of these films to be truly "deep." That is a fallacy that so people use to try and brush aside/dismiss legitimate criticisms without actually addressing. If the FILM chooses to introduce these things, then they should follow through with them. And Marvel has proven that the CAN do this well, so there's even less excuse.

Oh and the fact that people couldn't tell that The Guard was joking about the "wife-beater" thing is just sad because it was freaking obvious to me.

This.

 

[The Guard]

Hope didn't put on the suit because that's what the writers wanted. There's no reason it couldn't have been written otherwise. "We have to keep her with Cross" need not have gotten in the way of that. It was just a choice they made.

Wait, are people pretending Hope was actually ever on Cross's side and that she somehow "changed" later on? Pretty sure that the movie revealed that that had all been a ruse because Hank needed her close to him to find out his plans and such.

And there's still no good reason given that Hank was suddenly okay with her being The Wasp at the end of the movie.

"It wasn't about him anymore"? What does that even mean? It was never about him. It was about his fears over losing her if she put on the suit and did whatever. Did those fears suddenly go away? There are all kinds of reasons he could have figured out to be okay with it...none of which were utilized or explored. Beyond sloppy writing.

 

[Supa]

Anyway, the death scene of 'Ant'ony during the helicopter sequence seemed unintentionally silly. This slow motion shot of a wing falling, from an ant that never really displayed that much personality in the 4 scenes it was focused on. It just seemed hilariously melodramatic. I'm pretty sure the last scene that focused on it played the ant's name for laugh because it was a pun.

 

[Loki882]

He gifted her with the suit because it was no longer about what Hank wanted anymore. That's called character development.

Hope came back to her father once she learned of what Cross was up to. However, she could not outright disobey him because they needed each other to help put a stop to it. Not to mention this is a father and daughter we're talking about. two people trying to mend fences. The last time she went against her father, she cost him his job as chairman of Pym Tech. So she's partially at fault for everything

Your reasons for it being lame are some of the flimsiest I've seen on here. Within the context of the movie the reasons were fine. This sounds more like "Whaaaa but I wanted to see it this way" kind of thing.

See that's the thing about opinions isn't it. They're subjective. "She cost him his job," so what? That's completely irrelevant for why she cannot put on the Wasp suit. You know, to FIX things. They could have written them "mending fences,: there's ZERO reason why they couldn't have written them "reconciling" so that she could put on the suit in this film (especially since the film gives us no real reason why Hank suddenly changed his own). The reason why they didn't, is because they didn't WANT TO. Huh, it's almost like people have different opinions about how movies should play out of something, fancy that.

If they liked it fine, but stop trying to insinuate that there's something wrong with the people who don't, because we're not obligate. I didn't buy it, nor did I like it, simple as that.

 

[Loki882]

You were actually paying attention during the film?

Spoiler

And they had to write it that way because? She absolutely HAD to be there, there's was no other way? Sorry, the writers don't get a pass for that either. They could have since they CHOSE to deliberately write in a situation in order to keep her out of the costume. So other people have to right to complain if they don't think that it worked, it's really that simple. IDK why that's so hard for some people here to understand.

 

[Loki882]

Hope didn't put on the suit because that's what the writers wanted. There's no reason it couldn't have been written otherwise. "We have to keep her with Cross" need not have gotten in the way of that. It was just a choice they made.

Wait, are people pretending Hope was actually ever on Cross's side and that she somehow "changed" later on? Pretty sure that the movie revealed that that had all been a ruse because Hank needed her close to him to find out his plans and such.

And there's still no good reason given that Hank was suddenly okay with her being The Wasp at the end of the movie.

"It wasn't about him anymore"? What does that even mean? It was never about him. It was about his fears over losing her if she put on the suit and did whatever. Did those fears suddenly go away? There are all kinds of reasons he could have figured out to be okay with it...none of which were utilized or explored. Beyond sloppy writing.

Not to mention that it's STILL all about him. The entire reason why she couldn't be Wasp was about HIS fears, HIS problems, HIS attitude, etc. And now she can be Wasp because HE decided so, HE somehow got over HIS issues. Who gives a crap about HER, or HER beliefs, or HER qualifications. Again, taking away agency from HER.

 

[TeeKay]

Any actions of a character in film all come down to because that's the writer wanted. I'm not even sure why you want to point to the obvious here. We are all fully aware that's what the writers wanted here. The main discussion here is about the reason for Hope not suiting up. You didn't like it, that's fine. It was given in the film whether you agree with it or not. Given the circumstances, made sense why Hank wouldnt let her suit up. Put yourself in his shoes.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

The entire reason why she couldn't be Wasp was about HIS fears, HIS problems, HIS attitude, etc.

No, the entire reason why she couldn't be Ant-Woman (she couldn't be Wasp because the only functional Wasp suit is lost in the Quantum Realm) is that it's his suit. As a father with a daughter myself, I just checked the parental bylaws and, nope, nothing in there says I have to hand over any possession she wants on demand.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Hope didn't put on the suit because that's what the writers wanted. There's no reason it couldn't have been written otherwise. "We have to keep her with Cross" need not have gotten in the way of that. It was just a choice they made.

Wait, are people pretending Hope was actually ever on Cross's side and that she somehow "changed" later on? Pretty sure that the movie revealed that that had all been a ruse because Hank needed her close to him to find out his plans and such.

And there's still no good reason given that Hank was suddenly okay with her being The Wasp at the end of the movie.

"It wasn't about him anymore"? What does that even mean? It was never about him. It was about his fears over losing her if she put on the suit and did whatever. Did those fears suddenly go away? There are all kinds of reasons he could have figured out to be okay with it...none of which were utilized or explored. Beyond sloppy writing.

You're mistaken. There was a rift between her and her father and it was her vote that cost him his job at the company. When she learned about what Cross was doing, that's when she went back to Pym and they devised a plan for her to stay close to him.

His fears over losing Hope is ABOUT HIM. That's what I meant by that. He didn't care what Hope wanted at that time.

 

[The Guard]

You're mistaken. There was a rift between her and her father and it was her vote that cost him his job at the company. When she learned about what Cross was doing, that's when she went back to Pym and they devised a plan for her to stay close to him.

His fears over losing Hope is ABOUT HIM. That's what I meant by that. He didn't care what Hope wanted at that time.

Except the vote and associated conflict wasn't in the film. She was pretty much already on his side in the actual movie, and had tumbled to Cross's plans prior to the film, hadn't she?

I don't really care whether his not wanting her to wear the suit was about him. The element was never satisfactorily resolved.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Except the vote and associated conflict wasn't in the film. She was pretty much already on his side in the actual movie, and had tumbled to Cross's plans prior to the film, hadn't she?

It was mentioned in the film. Of course with you, every little detail needs to be shown in the act, otherwise it's invalidated.

I don't really care whether his not wanting her to wear the suit was about him. The element was never satisfactorily resolved.

To you it wasn't. After everything was said and done, he realized what he had in his daughter so he entrusted her with the new suit.

 

[TheVision]

It seems like people cant watch a movie anymore without wanting everything given to them in one shot. Theres no sense of waiting for things to unfold. Its just Everything, RIGHT NOW because I want it type attitude. Did anyone ever think maybe the writers/director wanted to make ANT-MAN, an ANT-MAN origin film as opposed to Ant-Man and Wasp? I mean it would be different if there was no Wasp at all in the movie. Not only did we get a glimpse of early Hank and Janet in action, we will get a new Wasp with Hope in the future. Its something to look forward to.

The point about Hope having to be front and center with Cross while the heist was going on is a great point. She couldnt be Wasp anyway because she had to be there with Hank etc.

 

[The Guard]

It was mentioned in the film. Of course with you, every little detail needs to be shown in the act, otherwise it's invalidated.

It seems like people cant watch a movie anymore without wanting everything given to them in one shot. Theres no sense of waiting for things to unfold. Its just Everything, RIGHT NOW because I want it type attitude. Did anyone ever think maybe the writers/director wanted to make ANT-MAN, an ANT-MAN origin film as opposed to Ant-Man and Wasp? I mean it would be different if there was no Wasp at all in the movie. Not only did we get a glimpse of early Hank and Janet in action, we will get a new Wasp with Hope in the future. Its something to look forward to.

The point about Hope having to be front and center with Cross while the heist was going on is a great point. She couldnt be Wasp anyway because she had to be there with Hank etc.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Saying that something that happened before the events of the movie does not impact character development during the movie is fairly logical.

"Waiting for something to unfold"?

How can something unfold during the film if it happened already?

Hey, maybe they want to make an(other) ANT-MAN origin film/prequel and have things happen there. Great. That doesn't change or impact the argument that these elements were not actually in THIS movie, which is an argument certain people have made.

 

[Spiderdevil]

"It wasn't about him anymore"? What does that even mean? It was never about him. It was about his fears over losing her if she put on the suit and did whatever. Did those fears suddenly go away? There are all kinds of reasons he could have figured out to be okay with it...none of which were utilized or explored. Beyond sloppy writing.

Actually Scott Lang coming back from the microverse alive must have alleviated some of the fears

 

[Spiderdevil]

Actually I am pretty sure of the reason why we didn't see Wasp

Edgar Wright's script had very little role for Hope Van Dyne, it was reported that, the new writers improved that bit and made Hope's role bigger, so much so that it might now look silly that she didn't become the Wasp, but making her the Wasp would have deviated too much from the original script and the purpose of the movie, from Marvel's plan

There is something called Sequel baiting, why didn't we see War Machine in Iron Man 1? There was an extra suit for Rhodey and everything, and him being a military man, was more capable in combat. Everything comes in due time

And no I don't believe that Hope was more capable, yeah more capable in combat and controlling the Ants, but the purpose of the heist was never having a brawl with the Yellow Jacket, it was breaking in and stealing something, and Scott had plenty of experience of that, you think Hope could have broken in and stolen the Ant-man suit so easily like Scott did?

 

[JtheDreamer]

Actually Scott Lang coming back from the microverse alive must have alleviated some of the fears

The Guard doesn't get it. He chooses to ignore things specifically shown to him in the movie.

 

[The Guard]

Actually Scott Lang coming back from the microverse alive must have alleviated some of the fears

You're going to have to explain to me how that somehow means there would be no danger or risk of him losing Hope if she put on the Wasp costume.

 

[Spiderdevil]

You're going to have to explain to me how that somehow means there would be no danger or risk of him losing Hope if she put on the Wasp costume.

Scott on random figured out a way to escape the microverse, that is to use the enlarging disc on the regulator, maybe Janet didn't have that with her when she got lost

So now Pym can breathe easy knowing that there is a way to escape the microverse and he unknowingly invented it himself, so as long as Wasp carries the discs with her, she would be safe