whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

[The Joker]

No. That would be agreeing to marry Peter (to make someone else jealous) and then leaving him at the altar.

That's exactly why Raimi's MJ is so like the comics in that regard. They did practically the same thing, only comic book MJ was worse because she did it with a guy she supposedly really did love.

Not dating him and rejecting his proposal because she wasn't ready to take the next step. Your arguments are very Peter-centric. Peter wasn't victimized there.

But she did seriously date him, that's what led to the proposal. And never gave any indicators that what they had was just a a casual fling that wasn't headed anywhere. Of course my arguments are Peter centric. He was the victim of MJ's insecurities. He's the one that was dumped because his gf wants to go make herself available to all the men out there in the world. Her words.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

There's nothing in those panels that mention Aunt May saying she doesn't think Peter and MJ are ready for marriage. She just says to Anna that Peter and MJ have to handle their own lives.

Her best friend told her she wished Peter and MJ would finally... I doubt she'd make a neutral comment about them living their own lives if she felt they were heading down the path to marriage.

Because she believed they made a mistake breaking up. That they were meant for each other obviously. The clue is the dialogue; I thought you would make a good couple and you have a lot more in common with each other than you realize.

Was that a rhetorical question?

She clearly says she always thought they would make a good couple, and that it's because they have more in common than Peter realizes, not because they were in a serious committed relationship. She pushed Peter toward Mary Jane before and afer their relationship.

Can you quote the lines in those panels which indicate Peter has decided to propose marriage because I don't see the words marriage or proposal anywhere.

Peter's not the kind of guy to keep a woman tied up in his basement, so his comment about never leaving her side is pretty indicative of his intentions.

She's wittering on about how much his Aunt May cares about him. What makes you think she was about to tell him so based on this?

Chekhov's gun. In the same issue where Peter later proposes, MJ mentions Aunt May's less than subtle suggestions and says, "She really cares for your welfare, Tiger. I wish I--"

Did you see the first panel I posted? Do you have any evidence their relationship had changed between ASM #165 and ASM #182?

 

[The Joker]

Her best friend told her she wished Peter and MJ would finally... I doubt she'd make a neutral comment about them living their own lives if she felt they were heading down the path to marriage.

Why not? Just because she says Peter and MJ have to make decisions like that for themselves doesn't mean she thinks they're not ready for it.

Furthermore, whether she thinks they're ready for marriage or not is irrelevant. She thinks they're meant to be together. So if she feels that way then logically she would think marriage is right for them, too.

She clearly says she always thought they would make a good couple, and that it's because they have more in common than Peter realizes, not because they were in a serious committed relationship. She pushed Peter toward Mary Jane before and afer their relationship.

Hold the phone, I never said her whole opinion was based on them being in a serious relationship. I said it was because she believed they were serious for each other, and that if Aunt May thought MJ was a flighty man hopping girl, she wouldn't be pushing for them to be together.

Seeing them together as a couple just cemented Aunt May's belief that they were meant to be.

Peter's not the kind of guy to keep a woman tied up in his basement, so his comment about never leaving her side is pretty indicative of his intentions.

Translation; you're putting your own unfounded spin on his words. Saying you always want to be around your gf doesn't mean you want to marry them. I mean he follows it up with the sentence that he can't because he has to dash off to fight the Goblin. And you construe this as a plan for marriage proposal.

Chekhov's gun. In the same issue where Peter later proposes, MJ mentions Aunt May's less than subtle suggestions and says, "She really cares for your welfare, Tiger. I wish I--"

More of your own unfounded assumptions about her words. What do you think the end of that sentence was? I wish I cared for your welfare, too?

Did you see the first panel I posted?

Yeah I did.

And?

Do you have any evidence their relationship had changed between ASM #65 and ASM #182?

Yeah I do. They started dating. Fell in love. Peter proposed. MJ revealed that she was a multi guy kind of woman and that they were just friends.

You got any proof to the contrary of that?

 

[sl500jazz]

That's exactly why Raimi's MJ is so like the comics in that regard. They did practically the same thing, only comic book MJ was worse because she did it with a guy she supposedly really did love.

No they didn't.

But she did seriously date him, that's what led to the proposal. And never gave any indicators that what they had was just a a casual fling that wasn't headed anywhere. Of course my arguments are Peter centric. He was the victim of MJ's insecurities. He's the one that was dumped because his gf wants to go make herself available to all the men out there in the world. Her words.

Oh poor Peter.

Dating or loving someone does not = wanting to commit to marriage with them.

She NEVER fooled him into thinking that she wanted marriage at that point in time.

Why does you think MJ was fooling herself change that she still strung Peter along when she did because she knew she didn't want to be tied down, and she let it go on and on until she had to tell him the truth when he proposed. That's stringing a person along.

You're wrong she also strung Harry along and when she dumped him that is what caused him to do drugs.

This is getting ridiculous. Harry was clearly doing drugs BEFORE MJ dumped him. She didn't cause him to do anything. He was responsible for his own stupid decisions.

 

[The Joker]

No they didn't.

Yeah they did.

Oh poor Peter.

Darn right.

Dating or loving someone does not = wanting to commit to marriage with them.

I never said it did. But it also does not = your gf being the type who wants to sample all the other men of the world.

She NEVER fooled him into thinking that she wanted marriage at that point in time.

For the umpteenth time I never said she did. I said she fooled him into thinking the were in a committed serious relationship by never giving any indication it was anything more than a casual thing that was going nowhere. If you can't respond to what I'm actually saying then just stop responding altogether. I feel like I'm talking to someone who is reading a different conversation.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

This is getting ridiculous. Harry was clearly doing drugs BEFORE MJ dumped him. She didn't cause him to do anything. He was responsible for his own stupid decisions.

You're right. I got it confused with her leaving him after he started drugs. Sorry.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

.
Yeah I did.

And?

It clearly indicates the state of the relationship, and their is no indication of it changing between then and the proposal.

Yeah I do. They started dating. Fell in love. Peter proposed. MJ revealed that she was a multi guy kind of woman and that they were just friends.

I notice their is no declaration of being in a committed relationship in your reply. Being in love does not mean you're in a serious relationship and are moving down the path to marriage,

I never said it did. But it also does not = your gf being the type who wants to sample all the other men of the world.

She's always been quite vocal about not wanting to settle down.

 

[The Joker]

It clearly indicates the state of the relationship, and their is no indication of it changing between then and the proposal.

Saying let the water find it's own level in our relationship is not an indication that there is nothing changing between them. It's just Peter saying lets see where it goes.

I notice their is no declaration of being in a committed relationship in your reply. Being in love does not mean you're in a serious relationship and are moving down the path to marriage,

Being in love, dating steady not casually, is of course being in a committed relationship.

I'm fed up to the back teeth of saying over and over that I never said being in a serious relationship means marriage. In fact I said the total opposite of that. I said some people can be content with never getting married and just being in a committed relationship.

Do I have to go and link these posts to every response I make?

She's always been quite vocal about not wanting to settle down.

While they were dating? Lets see some examples. Proper clear ones. None of your obscure scans where you put your own spin on what you think they're saying.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

It clearly indicates the state of the relationship, and their is no indication of it changing between then and the proposal.

You didn't answer me before. What issue is that from? How long before the marriage proposal is it?

I notice their is no declaration of being in a committed relationship in your reply. Being in love does not mean you're in a serious relationship and are moving down the path to marriage

So you think if you are in love with someone and dating them and nobody else for a long time that it's not serious?

You must think Peter and Aunt May and Anna Watson are fools.

She's always been quite vocal about not wanting to settle down.

Before or after she got with Peter?

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Saying let the water find it's own level in our relationship is not an indication that there is nothing changing between them. It's just Peter saying lets see where it goes.

Let's see where it goes is not an indication that you're relationship is serious.

Being in love, dating steady not casually, is of course being in a committed relationship.

Maybe this is a regional thing, but steady dating doesn't mean the same thing as going steady. Going steady requires a statement of intention.

Before or after she got with Peter?

Before. Do you really just assume people are going to change their views after they get involved with you.

So you think if you are in love with someone and dating them and nobody else for a long time that it's not serious?

You must think Peter and Aunt May and Anna Watson are fools.

The opposite, I think they are all old enough and smart enough to not assume Mary Jane is going to change who she is for Peter. If she made a statement about how serious or committed they were to each other, she would be leading Peter on.

You didn't answer me before. What issue is that from? How long before the marriage proposal is it?

I didn't answer you because I posted the issue numbers, #165 and #182.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

The opposite, I think they are all old enough and smart enough to not assume Mary Jane is going to change who she is for Peter. If she made a statement about how serious or committed they were to each other, she would be leading Peter on.

But if that's what they assumed then they wouldn't think Peter and MJ are meant for each other. Because they wouldn't be if MJ isn't going to change and settle down like you think.

So what you're saying is a contradiction.

 

[sl500jazz]

You're right. I got it confused with her leaving him after he started drugs. Sorry.

Ah. That's ok.

I never said it did. But it also does not = your gf being the type who wants to sample all the other men of the world.



For the umpteenth time I never said she did. I said she fooled him into thinking the were in a committed serious relationship by never giving any indication it was anything more than a casual thing that was going nowhere. If you can't respond to what I'm actually saying then just stop responding altogether. I feel like I'm talking to someone who is reading a different conversation.

For the umpteenth time, it's the commitment of marriage that scared her off, and she responded the way she did and broke things off because of the facade and her inability to come to terms with how she truly felt. Quite frankly, Peter should have consulted her, and asked her how she felt about marriage before jumping off of the deep end.

But that's not where the relationship ended. Peter and MJ were finally able to break down the barriers and come clean with one another before the marriage. We know why MJ said what she said and that statement cannot be taken at face value.

If there's ANYTHING that she fooled Peter into thinking, it's that she wasn't capable of committing to him and preferred dating around.

 

[The Joker]

Let's see where it goes is not an indication that you're relationship is serious.

I never said it was.

Being in love, steadily dating, and proposing marriage.....that does. Aunt May telling MJ to not give up on love and go after Peter during the whole Gwen clone fiasco, which she does, that does.

Etc etc.

Maybe this is a regional thing, but steady dating doesn't mean the same thing as going steady. Going steady requires a statement of intention.

It didn't need to be vocally said. Peter and MJ were in love, they were committed to dating each other and only each other, and it stayed that way. How on earth can being in love and a monogamous relationship translate to anything other than a serious committed relationship?

Why on earth would Peter or Anna Watson think marriage was a possibility if it was actually anything less? Why would Aunt May think Peter and MJ are meant to be if it wasn't going to go anywhere?

Seriously this is all rhetorical.

Before. Do you really just assume people are going to change their views after they get involved with you.

Yes absolutely. Otherwise Peter would never have bothered with her in the first place would he. Why would the Aunties be thinking it was going somewhere serious?

 

[The Joker]

For the umpteenth time, it's the commitment of marriage that scared her off, and she responded the way she did and broke things off because of the facade and her inability to come to terms with how she truly felt. Quite frankly, Peter should have consulted her, and asked her how she felt about marriage before jumping off of the deep end.

Nonsense. If the commitment of marriage was all that scared her then all she had to say was she wasn't ready. Or tell him to ask her again in six months. Or a year. But it was commitment of any kind that scared her away. The marriage proposal just backed her into a corner where she was forced to reveal this.

But that's not where the relationship ended. Peter and MJ were finally able to break down the barriers and come clean with one another before the marriage. We know why MJ said what she said and that statement cannot be taken at face value.

Yes, that's about the only thing you and I have agreed on. We know they got over that later when MJ fessed up to her own issues, issues which were not Peter's fault. MJ was to blame for what happened.

If there's ANYTHING that she fooled Peter into thinking, it's that she wasn't capable of committing to him and preferred dating around.

That too. But that was after the fact of where she ran out on him after he proposed.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

But if that's what they assumed then they wouldn't think Peter and MJ are meant for each other. Because they wouldn't be if MJ isn't going to change and settle down like you think.

So what you're saying is a contradiction.

Not assuming she's changed, doesn't mean that she never will. She might or she might not. She's more than capable of letting them know if and when she's ready for a serious relationship.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Not assuming she's changed, doesn't mean that she never will. She might or she might not. She's more than capable of letting them know if and when she's ready for a serious relationship.

Sorry but that still does not make sense. If they were unsure and relying on maybes then they wouldn't be so certain Peter and MJ were meant for each other.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Nonsense. If the commitment of marriage was all that scared her then all she had to say was she wasn't ready. Or tell him to ask her again in six months. Or a year.

Now that would be leading him on.

But it was commitment of any kind that scared her away. The marriage proposal just backed her into a corner where she was forced to reveal this.

Which he knew, because he's known her for years. He just assumed she would change for him.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Sorry but that still does not make sense. If they were unsure and relying on maybes then they wouldn't be so certain Peter and MJ were meant for each other.

At no point do they say they're certain Peter and MJ were meant to be together.

 

[The Joker]

Now that would be leading him on.

Only if she really never wanted to get married ever. But this is based on the premise of it just being marriage that scares her. Asking for more time to see if she wants to isn't leading him on.

Which he knew, because he's known her for years. He just assumed she would change for him.

Wrong. He did not know this. If he knew this he wouldn't have bothered with her in the first place. MJ confessed all this later when she admitted the real reason why she rejected his proposal and it had nothing to do with Peter thinking they were in a committed relationship, or being misguided thinking that marriage was a possibility.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

At no point do they say they're certain Peter and MJ were meant to be together.

They do because they May pushes them to be together even after they have broken up and she would not do that if she thought they were not meant to be together. Anna Watson thought marriage was for them. She would not believe so if she thought her MJ was not serious about Peter.

The writers would not show three characters believing in Peter and MJ being meant to be so strongly if their relationship was nothing solid.

 

[sl500jazz]

Now that would be leading him on.

Bingo!

Yes, that's about the only thing you and I have agreed on. We know they got over that later when MJ fessed up to her own issues, issues which were not Peter's fault. MJ was to blame for what happened.

Hmmm. Peter hadn't revealed that he was Spider-man, which MJ was aware of, but MJ not revealing her deepest insecurities is far worse? It wasn't Peters fault and it wasn't MJ's fault. At that point in time, getting married wasn't right for either of them.

That too. But that was after the fact of where she ran out on him after he proposed.

So let me get this straight:

At first, she fooled him into thinking that she couldn't commit, then she flipped and fooled him into thinking that she could commit and get married, then she flipped again and fooled him into thinking that she couldn't commit when he proposed, then they actually got married?

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Wrong. He did not know this. If he knew this he wouldn't have bothered with her in the first place. MJ confessed all this later when she admitted the real reason why she rejected his proposal and it had nothing to do with Peter thinking they were in a committed relationship, or being misguided thinking that marriage was a possibility.

There's no indication that Peter started dating MJ because he thought she would make a good long term girlfriend. They grew closer.

 

[The Joker]

Hmmm. Peter hadn't revealed that he was Spider-man, which MJ was aware of, but MJ not revealing her deepest insecurities is far worse? It wasn't Peters fault and it wasn't MJ's fault. At that point in time, getting married wasn't right for either of them.

Yes, because Peter being Spider-Man is not a barrier to them being together. Whereas MJ's insecurities are.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying Peter was not in the wrong for not telling her yet, but his secret wasn't a factor that was inhibiting him from expressing how he felt about her.

So let me get this straight:

At first, she fooled him into thinking that she couldn't commit, then she flipped and fooled him into thinking that she could commit and get married, then she flipped again and fooled him into thinking that that she couldn't commit when he proposed, then they actually got married?

No, she fooled him into thinking they were in a committed relationship, then revealed that they actually were not because she's not a gal who wants to settle with one guy when there's a whole world of guys out there for her.

There's no indication that Peter started dating MJ because he thought she would make a good long term girlfriend. They grew closer.

Oh right so Peter was looking for a quickie just because he never actually said he was looking for something steady. Yeah that's really his style based on his previous relationships prior to MJ.

They do because they May pushes them to be together even after they have broken up and she would not do that if she thought they were not meant to be together. Anna Watson thought marriage was for them. She would not believe so if she thought her MJ was not serious about Peter.

The writers would not show three characters believing in Peter and MJ being meant to be so strongly if their relationship was nothing solid.

Bingo!

 

[Doctor Octopus]

There's no indication that Peter started dating MJ because he thought she would make a good long term girlfriend. They grew closer.

Peter in those days never dated a girl unless he thought they were right for him as a long term girlfriend. Peter was too straight arrow to go through girls casually. When he gave his heart to someone he wanted it for keeps.

 

[sl500jazz]

Yes, because Peter being Spider-Man is not a barrier to them being together. Whereas MJ's insecurities are.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying Peter was not in the wrong for not telling her yet, but his secret wasn't a factor that was inhibiting him from expressing how he felt about her.

Peter being Spider-man was not a barrier, but Peter being dishonest and not revealing his secret identity was most definitely a factor in the proposal rejection.

No, she fooled him into thinking they were in a committed relationship, then revealed that they actually were not because she's not a gal who wants to settle with one guy when there's a whole world of guys out there for her.

This is going in circles. Agreed to disagree.