What's your religion ???

[Snow Queen]

I can understand why people who live in a fundamentalist society would do it. But there's no discrimination of atheists where I live, yet they're angry and claim to be victims.

Where do you live, if I may ask?

 

[Doctor Evo]

I can understand why people who live in a fundamentalist society would do it. But there's no discrimination of atheists where I live, yet they're angry and claim to be victims.

I think you would actually be surprised. Atheists are more maligned in America than Muslims, and Islamophobia runs rampant here.

 

[Doctor Evo]

In my experience, those who believe in nothing...seldom have an original thought in their head. Having faith and being opened minded is not mutually exclusive; yet, having no faith doesn't mean you have an open mind, which is also evidenced in this thread.

Who believes in "nothing?" What does that even mean?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Where do you live, if I may ask?

I don't want to give away too much info. But it's a scandinavian country.

 

[KevanG]

Religion doesn't require deities, but okay.

This thought-exercise was intended for SentinelMind, but I suppose the point can still be made without his participation.

From where are these "belief structures" derived?

I know deities aren't absolutely required for religion but it is a standard for most of them. Usually a figurehead is the foremost of a group to rally around.

Normally belief structures are derived from various cultural stimuli, usually from family. The family will imprint various beliefs upon the children and depending on the level of freedom of thought allowed the children they may leave those structures entirely or stay within them. Depending on level of exposure to outside sources of course. It's not always a restriction of thought that would have a child stay within the same culture as they grew up in as we are almost always more comfortable in surroundings that we associate with home and family. If you grow up believing that certain things are true and it's reinforced often enough then if you are confronted with opposing information then your first instinct is to react negatively and aggressively. If you have an idea forced into your head often and repeatedly in a short period of time you can become indoctrinated into believing it's true even if you wouldn't have believed such things beforehand, various religions and agencies that aren't religions have used these tactics for centuries with great success.

Variations of belief structures due to migration of peoples over the centuries have caused great turmoil over time which has continued to this day. Even small differences in what is believed or even slight variances in interpretations of the same information have lead to bloodshed.

In short, you get your belief structures from your family and your teachings you learn as a child which can be modified as you grow but in your hind brain most times you would fall back to your basics when confronted with something which opposes you basic beliefs which can lead to negative responses from both parties.

(I'm still pretty sick so this whole thing may not be totally lucid or well written, sorry for rambling if it happens. )

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

I think you would actually be surprised. Atheists are more maligned in America than Muslims, and Islamophobia runs rampant here.

Well, I must live in Bizarro country... Where I live, most of the islamophobes i have met have been atheists. And the anti-semites are muslims and atheists.

 

[Snow Queen]

I don't want to give away too much info. But it's a scandinavian country.

Okay. I'm not familiar enough with laws over there so I can't say, however, I do know that 7 states in the USA (Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas) ban atheists from holding public office.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I don't want to give away too much info. But it's a scandinavian country.

That might actually explain it, then.

 

[charl_huntress]

Many atheists claim they think for themselves, when all they do is quote scripture, or atheistic popes like Dawkins, Harris and Dennett. We're all believers.

No recommendations on your user name and to be honest, G-D Batman is kind of cool. Don't worry about it.

The bolded is the biggest truth in this thread! Thank you for mentioning that.

 

[KevanG]

I've noticed that many self professed atheists actually have very little knowledge of religion and refuse to learn even the basics. I'm fine if you don't want to know anything about any religion but at least know what you're talking about if you want a decent argument.

 

[Feenix]

I don't want to give away too much info. But it's a scandinavian country.

You're right. Scandinavian countries are more atheist (they're also happier, have a higher quality of life, and less crime).

Muslims flock to countries in Northern Europe and they tend to cause a lot of trouble when they're there, so I understand the Islamophobia, because these groups tend to bring their problems from their home country to their new one.

 

[Feenix]

Love, mind, self and soul, right, wrong. Justice. I've heard all of the materialistic explanations... Not convinced.

You said before that you weren't talking about science when you said:

Many atheists claim they think for themselves, when all they do is quote scripture, or atheistic popes like Dawkins, Harris and Dennett. We're all believers

When I asked you for an example of what you were referring to, you replied with the first quote. I'm still confused. You're saying atheists quote Dawkins when they're talking about love and the mind?

 

[Doctor Evo]

I know deities aren't absolutely required for religion but it is a standard for most of them. Usually a figurehead is the foremost of a group to rally around.

Normally belief structures are derived from various cultural stimuli, usually from family. The family will imprint various beliefs upon the children and depending on the level of freedom of thought allowed the children they may leave those structures entirely or stay within them. Depending on level of exposure to outside sources of course. It's not always a restriction of thought that would have a child stay within the same culture as they grew up in as we are almost always more comfortable in surroundings that we associate with home and family. If you grow up believing that certain things are true and it's reinforced often enough then if you are confronted with opposing information then your first instinct is to react negatively and aggressively. If you have an idea forced into your head often and repeatedly in a short period of time you can become indoctrinated into believing it's true even if you wouldn't have believed such things beforehand, various religions and agencies that aren't religions have used these tactics for centuries with great success.

Variations of belief structures due to migration of peoples over the centuries have caused great turmoil over time which has continued to this day. Even small differences in what is believed or even slight variances in interpretations of the same information have lead to bloodshed.

In short, you get your belief structures from your family and your teachings you learn as a child which can be modified as you grow but in your hind brain most times you would fall back to your basics when confronted with something which opposes you basic beliefs which can lead to negative responses from both parties.

(I'm still pretty sick so this whole thing may not be totally lucid or well written, sorry for rambling if it happens. )

No, this is a good response. Not exactly the one I was aiming for, but it touches on some important points.

What I'm getting at is that religions typically come with a set of fundamental unifying principles which are not usually up for discussion or debate. These tend to define those religions, and are more than likely not arrived upon by their followers independently, regardless of how those followers came to adopt them or find them appealing.

To this extent, independent thought is necessarily limited in religion.

Of course, there are those that pick and choose which principles they live by, and those that do so without adhering to certain religious definitions or labels. These people are exercising free-thought more than their fundamentalist brethren.

It's not black and white; it never is. There is a continuum. And this by no means implies that the religious are the only ones who do this.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

You're right. Scandinavian countries are more atheist (they're also happier, have a higher quality of life, and less crime

Yet we're highly suspicious of others, still pretty racist (particularly against jews) have high divorce rates, drinks like sponges (it's a big problem over here, kids fear their parents because they drink too much), bad educational system, lots of people on welfare, crime is on the rise in the big cities... I wouldn't believe in everything I read.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

When I asked you for an example of what you were referring to, you replied with the first quote. I'm still confused. You're saying atheists quote Dawkins when they're talking about love and the mind?

And God. God is not a scientific concept. Dawkins is not a philosopher, he shouldn't comment on it.

 

[Airwings]

I'm christian

Yet we're highly suspicious of others, still pretty racist (particularly against jews) have high divorce rates, drinks like sponges (it's a big problem over here, kids fear their parents because they drink too much), bad educational system, lots of people on welfare, crime is on the rise in the big cities... I wouldn't believe in everything I read.

Yes, we have problems here.
Regarding religion, I think Scandinavian people in general tend to be more racist against muslims than jews.

 

[Doctor Evo]

And God. God is not a scientific concept. Dawkins is not a philosopher, he shouldn't comment on it.

Technically, science is a branch of philosophy.

 

[Feenix]

Yet we're highly suspicious of others, still pretty racist (particularly against jews) have high divorce rates, drinks like sponges (it's a big problem over here, kids fear their parents because they drink too much), bad educational system, lots of people on welfare, crime is on the rise in the big cities... I wouldn't believe in everything I read.

Where are your stats for those claims? Especially the educational system one. What do you mean by that?

You can easily find the stats on the Scandinavian countries, and they're much better than what we have in North America (for a lot of things). Sweden and Denmark, for instance, have a high quality of life rating and Denmark is considered the happiest country in the world.

As for racism, we have it in bounds in North America. Everyone hates everyone.

 

[Feenix]

And God. God is not a scientific concept. Dawkins is not a philosopher, he shouldn't comment on it.

Christians made god into a scientific concept when they tried to push him into the science classroom.

 

[KevanG]

No, this is a good response. Not exactly the one I was aiming for, but it touches on some important points.

What I'm getting at is that religions typically come with a set of fundamental unifying principles which are not usually up for discussion or debate. These tend to define those religions, and are more than likely not arrived upon by their followers independently, regardless of how those followers came to adopt them or find them appealing.

To this extent, independent thought is necessarily limited in religion.

Of course, there are those that pick and choose which principles they live by, and those that do so without adhering to certain religious definitions or labels. These people are exercising free-thought more than their fundamentalist brethren.

It's not black and white; it never is. There is a continuum. And this by no means implies that the religious are the only ones who do this.

To be fair, society as we know it usually arises from whatever religion is dominate in that area. There is always going to be some sort of controlling force that has it's own agenda, religious or otherwise and if the institution that is the main part of the society allows them enough control then the entire society will follow suit. We've seen it go every which way with witch hunts, both literal and figurative which have led to mass hysteria. Like actual witch hunts centuries ago or more recently terrorist related ones today. That which is different is always going to be feared and distrusted. Religious or otherwise, people will flock to those that they feel could best provide comfort even if they don't follow that particular reasoning. Look at all of the disaster movies where the churches are piled in with people. If you took a poll a month before I'd imagine well over half of them weren't regular church goers.

 

[Airwings]

Denmark is considered the happiest country in the world.

I've heard that too. Norwegains are also quite satisfied with their lives, and isn't it the richest country in the world?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Christians made god into a scientific concept when they tried to push him into the science classroom.

Funny, we have had the opposite problem. Atheistic politicians have tried to force the church and religious private schools to change their teachings.

I sympathise with you on the discrimination issue, but if you wish for atheist utopia, I believe you will be sorely disappointed. Just ask the people of North Korea, the people who suffered in Soviet...

 

[Doctor Evo]

Funny, we have had the opposite problem. Atheistic politicians have tried to force the church and religious private schools to change their teachings.

I sympathise with you on the discrimination issue, but if you wish for atheist utopia, I believe you will be sorely disappointed. Just ask the people of North Korea, the people who suffered in Soviet...

The people of North Korea aren't actually atheist (they worship their leaders as literal deities), and it's a myth that Soviet regimes were staunchly atheistic as well. Where are you getting this information?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Where are your stats for those claims? Especially the educational system one. What do you mean by that?

You can easily find the stats on the Scandinavian countries, and they're much better than what we have in North America (for a lot of things).

As for racism, we have it in bounds in North America. Everyone hates everyone.

Where I live, you need an education just to clean toilets. Many people drop out of the schools, and is on welfare.

Do you think that North Americans are unhappy because of religion, or something else?

Personally, I have always viewed you americans as tolerant people.

 

[regwec]

Where I live we have these atheists who always say "think for yourself" and stuff like that... And they're organized Most of the time they quote people like Richard Dawkins and other well known atheists. That's not really free thinking, is it?

You can quote whomever or whatever you like, so long as you have thought for yourself about what the quote means and whether you agree with it. Thinking for yourself means not letting someone else make up your mind for you. It does not mean that you should not use the words of someone more articulate than yourself to make a point that you have considered at length.

In my experience, those who believe in nothing...seldom have an original thought in their head. Having faith and being opened minded is not mutually exclusive; yet, having no faith doesn't mean you have an open mind, which is also evidenced in this thread.

If you have "faith" it does indeed mean that your mind is not entirely open, because having a "faith" is making a statement that your mind won't be changed. That is closed-mindedness by definition.

Your point about original thought is a separate one. I suppose you are talking about creative thought? If so, I don't agree, with the caveat that atheists (who I presume are the people you refer to as "believing in nothing") should be less gullible and more questioning of the fanciful.

I've noticed that many self professed atheists actually have very little knowledge of religion and refuse to learn even the basics.

Respectfully, it is really quite unnecessary to study all of the creeds and doctrines in any particular religion or superstition to realise that you don't accept it. It is enough to disagree with the basic premise.

You might write a 2,000 page treatise on why Kermit the frog is the Messiah, and I would be at liberty to weigh up the thesis based on universal principles of empirical logic, without having to wade through the whole text.